Crime Tiny Knife Wielding Tranny Shot By Cops

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I think he followed to correct escalation of force. I don't think he would have been justified using lethal force sooner.

I'll note a slight difference in this case, and that was in this case, the cop was a woman, who was being charged by an armed male.

The tactics are a lot different in a case like this.
 
Since a few people have implicitly suggested that police officers using a lower level of force than they could legally justify is "going above and beyond," I'd just like to add that while restraint and only using *necessary* force are good things, *failing* to use sufficient force to stop a threat benefits nobody.

Officer safety is considered of paramount importance in LEO training not for purely selfish reasons, but because a police officer who becomes a casualty is worse than useless in an emergency. Wounded and dead cops are sources of weapons for active threats and further tie up resouces to attend to them, while safe and healthy cops are obviously able to assist in dealing with said threats. It's not an abstract concept that a police officer failing to use lethal force to neutralize a subject posing a threat of death/grievous bodily harm could result in preventable harm to innocents.
 
Looking through the comments of the video with the mentally ill girl getting shot.
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Me thinks these guys need a community thread.
Any of the retards who make people who are rightfully shot out to be martyrs deserve to be mocked. You don't approach a police officer with a knife, especially after being told to drop it. And you especially don't tell them to shoot you. It doesn't matter how big the blade actually is, from that distance it would look like a butterfly knife (from the handle), or an actual knife with a folding blade. Some tools like that actually have decent sized blades too. A 3" blade with a 4" handle still could be used as an actual weapon. You don't even need to have something like that out if you're not using it. Walking around with something like that makes you look dangerous. For people who say that the police should've restrained them, when police officers train in grappling (from what I understand it's similar to aikido, which focuses on joint manipulation instead of using force) it's intended for use on people who are trying to struggle or push you away when you're arresting them, or someone who gets aggressive with their bare hands. You're not gonna stand still and wait for the person with a weapon to come within grabbing distance and then try to disarm them. If they're actually trying to harm you with the weapon you're going to shoot them.
 
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Taser? Anyhow I don't fault the cops here hit me up if you wanna talk about this more

I and others have already explained why a taser is not a sufficient tool to stop a subject advancing towards an officer with a knife. I have heard from multiple professional use-of-force instructors who have unanimously (and independently) explicitly instructed officers not to attempt to use tasers in that exact situation.
 
As a person with some legal experience, I feel an obligation to offer Kiwi Farmers a short guide in how not to get shot by a cop.

1) Do not charge at a cop with a weapon.

I'm pretty sure if you don't do this, you will not be shot by a cop.

but Reddit told me evil fascist cops spend their days going around executing black men and trannys just for the hell of it. Was I (gasp) lied to? Were they in fact antisocial criminal pieces of shit who deliberately attacked the cops and deserved everything they got?

Heaven forbid!
 
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Taser? Anyhow I don't fault the cops here hit me up if you wanna talk about this more
What about them?

They're not fielded by every police department and have fallen out of favor in recent years after a number of fatalities

Point of fact, Tasers aren't non-lethal, they're less than lethal, and their intent was to be deployed in situations where you would have shot the suspect anyway.

but Reddit told me evil fascist cops spend their days going around executing black men and trannys just for the hell of it. Was I (gasp) lied to? Were they in fact antisocial criminal pieces of shit who deliberately attacked the cops and deserved everything they got?

Heaven forbid!
You know the silliest part of that narrative?

There's usually some other black person that's totally unharmed because they weren't fighting with the police.

In the case of Mike Brown it was his sidekick Dorian.

If Office Wilson simply wanted to kill black people why didn't he just shoot both of them?
 
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You know the silliest part of that narrative?

There's usually some other black person that's totally unharmed because they weren't fighting with the police.

In the case of Mike Brown it was his sidekick Dorian.

If Office Wilson simply wanted to kill black people why didn't he just shoot both of them?

Apologize for double posting.
 
police going above and beyond is both what is expected (from the general public) and what is asked. it is not a job requirement...

To expand, it's also not a legal requirement, which is important when people start rioting when cops get acquitted.

People often talk about police needing to use the least 'necessary' force. That's not the legal standard. The legal standard is to use an objectively reasonable amount of force. Why? Well, because you can't know what the 'least necessary' amount of force is at the time. The only way to know would be to use literally the least amount- like a finger-waggle- and then wait and see if it works. If it doesn't, move up to a stern cuff on the ear. If that doesn't work... and so on. But of course there's a good chance you'll end up dead while trying to dial it in.

That's why police can use deadly force to repel deadly force (or great bodily injury). And a knife is deadly force. If someone is willing to die, they might be willing to stab a cop to make it happen.

Additionally, police procedures are also not law. Chicago, for example, (along with some other big cities) has told its officers that they are not to use deadly force against a suspect who is "only" using a car as a weapon. This is because the public doesn't understand how dangerous a moving vehicle is and gets upset even at justified killings when the suspect "didn't even have a gun.") So if you shoot someone trying to run you over, you can be fired. But that doesn't negate the state laws and federal caselaw which might end up with the officer not charged (though going against policy is fraught with legal dangers nonetheless). This is often why we see a disconnect between public perception and actual cases. Take the Eric Gardner example- people call it an "illegal chokehold" because the NYPD doesn't allow them, but there's actually no law against a chokehold... an important distinction when you're trying to bring criminal charges.

Taser? Anyhow I don't fault the cops here hit me up if you wanna talk about this more

In my non-scientific observations, about half the time when people get zapped they go into full neuromuscular incapacitation. This is when they lock up and hit the ground. But if that doesn't happen, all you've done is piss someone off and now you have a plastic paperweight in your hand to fight with.


They can fail for so, so many reasons. If you're too far away? Fail. If you're too close? Fail... the probes need to be a certain distance apart, you see. Too much clothes? Fail. Wrong angle? Just miss? Malfunction? It goes on. That's why they're not very useful in a fast and dangerous situation. Like I said in an earlier post, they have a place, but you need to be set up to use them... because you need a very quick and decisive plan "b" if it fails. There probably wasn't much time to do that here. Had the guy just stood there and been all emo, they probably could have waited and figured something out tbh. But distance = time and he was making sure there wasn't enough of it.
 
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I'll note a slight difference in this case, and that was in this case, the cop was a woman, who was being charged by an armed male.

The tactics are a lot different in a case like this.

Anyone running towards a police officer with a weapon needs to be shot. If they get through the line of defence that is the police, then they will go on to attack the general public. Why can't people just accept this?
What do people want?
...I was going to ask if people want to be killed instead of treading on violent lunatics toes, but given London and their love of terror attacks, we're already through the looking glass on that issue.
 
police going above and beyond is both what is expected (from people like you and the general public) and what is asked. it is not a job requirement.
I don't regard my expectations for the police as asking them to go "above and beyond". I think that when you do only one thing all day, you should be better at it than the average person.

I expect my mail carrier to know things about the postal system. I expect my garbagemen to be good at... dumping garbage. And I expect cops to keep the peace. That is indeed a job requirement.

I'm not asking for anything unreasonable.
the violent portion of dealing drugs is not inherent to the illicit profession - it is incidental. the violent aspect comes when someone needs/wants to enforce their will on someone who isn't complying. this is true for both the police and the cartels to your average gangbanger.

because of the realities of law enforcement and the world at large, both law enforcement and drug dealing (and being a troon out to suicide-by-cop) is implicit with work-related violence. much like convoy drivers in Iraq are not front line soldiers (and thus are open to women) but the realities of war place them on the front lines.
Calling it incidental is being pedantic just for the sake of it. With enough people, law enforcement is synonymous with tackling and manhandling perps. Just like selling drugs is synonymous with violence. Even on a small scale, you'll be surprised at how quickly violence comes into the picture.

Saying you signed up to be a cop, but you don't want to deal with the icky violence is retardedly naive. As naive as trying to sell drugs without encountering any violence.
it is the mismanaged departments, governments, and horrible people that are telecast to everyone that is interesting. the daily grind of average policework or helping people is irrelevant because no one watches the news to be told everything is hunky dory.
It's not purely a media invention. I'm not just talking about dramatic news stories. I'm talking about numbers, studies and investigations by the Department of Justice.

See, I understand what you're getting at. I know dumbasses out there who get whipped up by the media frenzy. Like all of BLM.

Not all police killings are created the same. There's a big difference between Freddie Gray and Korryn Gaines. I know that much.
No, what this lawsuit says is that police have no constitutional duty to protect someone. It's an important distinction.
1. They, regular cops, don't have adequate training, nor is there a cohesive system in place to provide adequate training. That's obviously due to the vastness of the country, the sheer amount of police needed and constantly needed to prop up the entire system.
Agreed.
2. A vast majority of American society has been brainwashed to be against the rule of law. There's too much free ranging in general society, in education, via the media, in parenting and in the application of law itself. Not to mention swathes of people - black communities, mexican communities - encourage lawlessness and idiotic white in power (education, law making) people back them up. By design or by virtue signalling, it doesn't matter, the whole "Don't tell me what to do/Don't put your laws on me" is just generally ingrained in American media and education, so everyone ends up infected by the stupidity.
I don't know about that. Or, I'd describe it differently.

I think a lot of people lack respect for the rule of law here, not because they're "brainwashed" against it, but because it's genuinely lost the people's respect over the years. The war on drugs, slavery and prohibition are the biggest causes of that.

Combined with America's historically libertarian perspective on these sort of things, and it's a pretty natural result. The law is seen (for good reason) as being a collection of fuckups.

But I don't think following the law is the same thing as naturally being a good person.

If we want to get people to respect the law again, we need to make it more respectable. Negative opinions of the law don't develop from people being thrown in jail for beating up their girlfriends. Those opinions develop from people getting thrown in jail for possession of weed. Or they develop from things like civil asset forfeiture. Or they develop from cops killing people and getting off with a slap on the wrist.

(With this last one: I know many of the time these "not guilty" verdicts are definitely justified. Like with Freddie Gray, for example. Cops have rights too and you can't convict without evidence. But at the same time, cops are aggressively opposing attempts to hold them accountable, like just outright turning off body cameras or police unions lobbying against measures to hold them accountable.)

I think if we moved to a future where the only things criminals can complain about is getting thrown in jail for are beating up their girlfriends, most Americans would rightfully see them as whiners.
People often talk about police needing to use the least 'necessary' force. That's not the legal standard. The legal standard is to use an objectively reasonable amount of force. Why? Well, because you can't know what the 'least necessary' amount of force is at the time. The only way to know would be to use literally the least amount- like a finger-waggle- and then wait and see if it works. If it doesn't, move up to a stern cuff on the ear. If that doesn't work... and so on. But of course there's a good chance you'll end up dead while trying to dial it in.
Least necessary... with enough room for error.
 
1. They, regular cops, don't have adequate training, nor is there a cohesive system in place to provide adequate training. That's obviously due to the vastness of the country, the sheer amount of police needed and constantly needed to prop up the entire system.
training varies from jurisdication to jurisdiction because the US is a series of states with individual laws and identities. likewise budgets and availablity of training varies significantly. while there is wonderful training available, it is either limited seating or is logistically out of reach. POST is fairly common, and police academies as well in other states. for some police in areas that are very remote, "on-the-job" training and being placed in controlled environments like jails is considered sufficient. you tend to get the police you pay for and ask for. police that are not screen sufficiently, or allowed to abuse the public trust and are upheld by their brothers in blue seriously damage the appearance of all police.

2. A vast majority of American society has been brainwashed to be against the rule of law. There's too much free ranging in general society, in education, via the media, in parenting and in the application of law itself. Not to mention swathes of people - black communities, mexican communities - encourage lawlessness and idiotic white in power (education, law making) people back them up. By design or by virtue signalling, it doesn't matter, the whole "Don't tell me what to do/Don't put your laws on me" is just generally ingrained in American media and education, so everyone ends up infected by the stupidity.
you can never have too much freedom. perhaps other countries can't handle that. in the US, we do not have "tall poppy" syndrome. being unique and special is celebrated generally. rule of law is vastly ingrained in the US - what you are missing is that the law cannot and often will not infringe on individual rights - only when the public is at risk or you are infringing on others is there a need for law enforcement to step in. if you live your way of life and harm no one and you aren't a dick about it, no one will give a fuck what you do.

minorities making ghettos is all on them these days. redlining hasn't been a thing for years and gentrification of areas to provide improved living conditions and employment opportunities are ruined by folks that would prefer to live in squalor and violent communities than seek to better themselves and the area around them. it's disingenuous to imply that minorities in the US as a rule (official or unofficial) seek to undermine a lawful society.[/QUOTE]

...education system that's actively indoctrinating people to "resist". It's an ouroboros.
the US education system encourages teaching to meet a standardized test. with a constantly lowering bar and policies that forbid failing a student, you get crappy outcomes. nothing in that system has any impact on individual teachers or cohesive members of faculty that seek to use their job as a teacher to indoctrinate students.

The training though goes a long way to make sure people police aren't having to shoot to kill constantly.
don't mistake our police training as being "wrong" if you do not understand the differences in circumstances, society, and doctrine. in the US, people are not taught to run crying to the police for little things. if it is something escalated that far, an armed response may be required.

If they do shoot, they shoot to disarm. That is usually a massive deal.
shooting to disarm is not Australian police doctrine or training. it is a consequence of electing to do so. i spent 3 months training VPSO in the use of terrorist-specific engagement tactics and it was never a thing in any document or policy of any kind that i can remember. if you are required to draw your duty weapon you are generally required to use it in order to save your own life or the life of someone else. shooting someone it always a lethal response whether your intention is to wound or not. to do otherwise implies you had no reason to use a firearm at all.

In Tokyo, you have police boxes. The police in these boxes don't do a whole lot, but if you're slyly jay walking across a side alley at night and you hear the familiar sound of the police whistle and the stomp of a wooden stick out of the dark, most people will be like shocked and sorry.
Japanese policing is entirely different in philosophy and scope. the koban system and community policing and assigning districts is extremely precise and often new officers will introduce themselves to the entire community over time, usually by a retiring or transferring officer. likewise many jurisdiction appointments are lifetime, and policework is a dedicated career and special college purely for police. there isn't a strong comparison to most Anglosphere police structures.

Taser? Anyhow I don't fault the cops here hit me up if you wanna talk about this more
TASER devices easily fail. the statistics are about 25% or so for various reasons. here is a compliation of new stories where it is verified TASER devices were deployed note that there is a serious risk of heart attack or other death if the person being tased is particularly sensitive to electrical shocks

I don't regard my expectations for the police as asking them to go "above and beyond". I think that when you do only one thing all day, you should be better at it than the average person.
it is above and beyond directly because it is not called for in the daily course of duty - police do not encounter armed people constantly. police encounter freaks, drunks, and asshole constantly. given there is little reduction in those numbers, i postulate that police are not executing them. police are not soldiers. over the course of 8 years of policework i had exactly 2 shooting incidents. this is what i would consider typical for the time period for the average deputy sheriff in most of the US.

I expect my mail carrier to know things about the postal system. I expect my garbagemen to be good at... dumping garbage. And I expect cops to keep the peace. That is indeed a job requirement.

I'm not asking for anything unreasonable.
your expectations that every cop is to allow an armed suspect to close to lethal range is very much unreasonable. i challenge you to find someone besides yourself or Antifa that are agree with that.

i don't expect my mail carrier to water my plants or watch my house for burglaries. i don't expect my garbage men to lug a pile of scrap metal or concrete away. if they do, that's above and beyond, but it's not a job requirement however much some people might make an equivalence with "they handle garbage and see my house every day so they should be able to do these things too".

Saying you signed up to be a cop, but you don't want to deal with the icky violence is retardedly naive. As naive as trying to sell drugs without encountering any violence.
yet it proves my point. whether it is endemic or not is irrelevant. most policework (baliffs, jailers, matrons, admins, clerks, et c) encounter no violence in the same way most drug dealers do not. it's a very real and common risk of policework to encounter violence, i'm not arguing that. i challenge your statement that it is explicit is all.

It's not purely a media invention. I'm not just talking about dramatic news stories. I'm talking about numbers, studies and investigations by the Department of Justice.

See, I understand what you're getting at. I know dumbasses out there who get whipped up by the media frenzy. Like all of BLM.

Not all police killings are created the same. There's a big difference between Freddie Gray and Korryn Gaines. I know that much.
then your phrasing is confusing to me, because it is not a widespread problem. it is concentrated in a few large agencies and in very small agencies.

No, what this lawsuit says is that police have no constitutional duty to protect someone. It's an important distinction.
the suit was in 1989 and has been consistently upheld that there is no Constitutional duty to protect and serve. it was a slogan of the LAPD. it also cuts the other way - there is no relief from a compulsion to execute a properly written order to the police. if you read the ruling it's an important distinction to realize that the firearm on an officer's hip is for his own protection - not yours.
 
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I feel like the loss of any life is regrettable, even this guy's. But at the same time, he had it coming. Charging at a cop with a knife isn't very smart. I wonder what made him do this.
 
I feel like the loss of any life is regrettable, even this guy's. But at the same time, he had it coming. Charging at a cop with a knife isn't very smart. I wonder what made him do this.
Suicide, and possible drug use.

This whole situation is sad, one person is dead and another is probably going to have phycological issues forever.
Its really selfish to have someone else kill you, because your too much of a coward to do it yourself.
He also seemed to go out in a really public way with lots of people watching, witch could give other people PTSD for having to see that.
If you really want to kill yourself do it in a quiet and clean way, away from your family / friends and the public.

I don't like the police for a lot of the unnecessary violence they use in some instances (like the video @oldTireWater posted that was unjustified violence for the situation).

But in this situation based on the video and news sources that I have seen so far... I think the use of force was justified.
Although I kind of wish she shot him in the legs instead of the upper body to try and make it less fatal, (as I have seen that used in suicide by cop situations so no one dies).
But I guess its all a matter of training and how much time you have to shoot along with distance.
IDK I've never fired a gun and am not a cop.
 
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If they do shoot, they shoot to disarm.

lol no. All cops shoot to kill. Australian police training teaches them to target center mass and to continue shooting until they're certain the threat is over. Our cops might be slower to shoot, but when they do it usually means some poor motherfucker is going to die, and he's going to die with 20+ bullets in him. The only time I've ever heard of cops here shooting to disarm is the very occasional incident where special response snipers will try for a knee-shot on an armed lunatic who's too far away to be a threat but still not letting anyone approach him.
 
You know the silliest part of that narrative?

There's usually some other black person that's totally unharmed because they weren't fighting with the police.

In the case of Mike Brown it was his sidekick Dorian.

If Office Wilson simply wanted to kill black people why didn't he just shoot both of them?
You seem to be thinking that these types of people use logic. They like to claim the "victim" is completely blameless and ignore evidence or claim anything they don't agree with is forged.
 
Least necessary... with enough room for error.

Well that's not the caselaw, but I assume you mean that's what you think it should be. I'd argue that such a standard would be pretty much impossible to enforce but, in all honesty, even the standard of 'objectively reasonable' isn't exactly a bright line that can be calculated. The main thing I wish people would understand more is that it can't be looked at in hindsight- like saying "well, it was just a toy" after someone holding a replica gun gets shot.

... The only time I've ever heard of cops here shooting to disarm is the very occasional incident where special response snipers will try for a knee-shot on an armed lunatic who's too far away to be a threat but still not letting anyone approach him.

This is one well-documented incident I know about (thanks to the video). The guy in question was threatening to kill himself and not anyone else. The situation was controlled by the police and he wasn't going anywhere. But you can bet there was someone else ready to shoot the guy several times if things went bad (like if the sniper missed and the guy decided to start shooting). Warning: the narration is fucking retarded.
 
it is above and beyond directly because it is not called for in the daily course of duty - police do not encounter armed people constantly. police encounter freaks, drunks, and asshole constantly. given there is little reduction in those numbers, i postulate that police are not executing them. police are not soldiers. over the course of 8 years of policework i had exactly 2 shooting incidents. this is what i would consider typical for the time period for the average deputy sheriff in most of the US.
Agreed, it's not an everyday thing. But I think it's an important skill for a cop. Like a doctor who ends up being a podiatrist should still know how to do the heimlich.
your expectations that every cop is to allow an armed suspect to close to lethal range is very much unreasonable.
I don't expect that. I don't mean to give that impression.

When I hear about someone being shot by a cop who was less armed than the cop, I expect to be able to read some report about why it was necessary. I don't want to hear platitudes about how hard it is to be a cop. I don't want to hear "just trust them". I just want the facts and whether or not they fucked up.

And if they did fuck up, that's fine. There should be an appropriate punishment.

I'm just annoyed at paying taxes and feeling I'm getting a shitty service, and then when I complain, being told that I don't actually have the power to complain, because there's no citizen involvement in police misconduct.
then your phrasing is confusing to me, because it is not a widespread problem. it is concentrated in a few large agencies and in very small agencies.
No? It seems to me that many large American cities have a policing problem at some level. I know about Baltimore very well, and we definitely have a policing problem here. I don't know about other states though, and I kind of refrain from commenting on specifics in other places because I rarely know the details very well.
the suit was in 1989 and has been consistently upheld that there is no Constitutional duty to protect and serve. it was a slogan of the LAPD. it also cuts the other way - there is no relief from a compulsion to execute a properly written order to the police. if you read the ruling it's an important distinction to realize that the firearm on an officer's hip is for his own protection - not yours.
That's just constitutionally. There's nothing keeping states from imposing stricter standards requiring a bare minimum of service.
Well that's not the caselaw, but I assume you mean that's what you think it should be. I'd argue that such a standard would be pretty much impossible to enforce but, in all honesty, even the standard of 'objectively reasonable' isn't exactly a bright line that can be calculated.
I was rephrasing objectively reasonable.

Basically, "necessary" can be calculated on a few perspectives. "Necessary (based on the information available at the time)" would mean they would take into account their imperfect information. People might be able to determine the cop had other, less lethal options after the fact, but that doesn't mean there was any way for the cop to know it at the time.

Thus the cop might've used "least necessary" force based on the information available to them at the time. That's how it should be: least necessary, but with room for error, considering imperfect information.
The main thing I wish people would understand more is that it can't be looked at in hindsight- like saying "well, it was just a toy" after someone holding a replica gun gets shot.
I would like to have legal structures in place that can make those distinctions. But at the same time, I don't want to make excuses for police that make bad decisions.

Like if a cop shot a kid with a gun that had the orange tip intact, I'd be annoyed at that and the "it's just a toy" complaint would be right on target. Now if the little dumbass removed the orange tip, then that's on him. (And really, on his parents for raising the little shit.)
 
Quoth the attorney: “The area was secured. There was no one around at risk.”

I'm confused. Did he somehow manage to miss the two cops being approached by the troon?
 
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