UN Betsy DeVos to end Title IX - And feminists are pissed

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http://fortune.com/2017/09/07/betsy-devos-title-ix-sexual-assault/ (http://archive.is/O3Ktm)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...8a4366-6b36-11e7-9c15-177740635e83_story.html (http://archive.is/x4MLL)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...debra-katz-hannah-alejandro-column/536000001/ (http://archive.is/wqj4v)

Betsy DeVos, the Secretary of Education, has announced plans to roll back the infamous Title IX regulations put in place by the Obama Administration. This news was not received well by feminists.

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If we're writing gangrape fanfics about our nonexistent daughters can I make my fake daughter a Transformer? I want a toaster robot daughter.
 
You are fucking exceptional.

Awww, thank you <3

They go to the administration because they use a preponderance of the evidence, they don't go to the police because 90% of these cases turn out to be 'we both got drunk and in the morning I sobered up'.

Yeah, you're kinda really over simplfying why people would or would not go to the police? Is it because of the lower evidence requirement? For some sure, yeah. Is that the reason for everyone? Fuck no.

Also, only 42% of sexual assault cases involve the victim consuming alcohol.

However, 90% of rapes involve alcohol. But just because alcohol was involved does not mean "we both got drunk and in the morning I sobered up"

Not to mention that if they went to the police the accused would actually get a chance to defend themselves, unlike on campus where the accused don't get to provide evidence
talk to counsel before being thrown out of college

I'm having a really hard time believing either of these points are true.

How many lawsuits need to be brought against colleges before idiots like you comprehend that this shit is utterly fucked?

Well, that depends. How many have been brought up already? How many are brought up per year? Is this amount smaller or greater than the number of lawsuits brought up against courts per year when the amount of crime is controlled for?

The mere suggestion that someone is a rapist can be enough to ruin them.

At which point whether or not there is a trial is totally pointless. If they're convicted, then they're fucked? If they're not convicted, then they're still fucked because people will just say that the trial was mishandled.

This is indicative of a more systemic and cultural issue. Repealing this part of Title IX would do very little to combat this.

Having these things dealt with in an actual court probably discourages false accusations, and though I understand that it is argued that the process will also discourage real accusations, I don't think it is appropriate to create more victims in an attempt to help others.

It's a balancing act honestly. There really isn't much of a consensus on the number of false rape accusations per year. I am very much for harsh penalties for people who are convicted of false sexual assault accusations. I personally believe that the number of false sexual assault accusations per year is pretty low (although their is a good chance I could be wrong), and that more people should be convicted are convicted under the current system. The way Title IX mandates that universities handle these situations isn't the best, and I would be supportive of a better alternative obviously. Of course, the number of false accusations is only going to decrease over time as better methods for acquiring evidence are developed - I can't really see false accusations being much of a problem in the coming decades.


0%. Ever heard of being innocent until proven guilty?

How does preponderance of evidence at all violate that? You're still assuming the innocence of the accused.

And it is impossible to be 100% certain of anything. There's a reason the legal requirement of proof for conviction is "beyond a reasonable doubt" rather than "beyond a shadow of a doubt"

Fuck off loser

Aww, but I was just starting to like this place.

if a sexual assault took place call the police and let real law enforcement enforce the law and prove you're guilty.

1. Why would someone call the police to prove that they were guilty?
2. Since when are campus police not real police? I must've missed that memo

People who trained to be educators are not qualified to examine evidence and determine guilt in an accusation of sexual assault.

Yes, it should instead go to a jury of one's own peers whose credentials may be even more questionable.

I also doubt a sexual assault took place if the only punishment the victim is seeking is expulsion from school and not locking up the person who sexually assaulted them in jail.

Given how frequently sexual assault happens between two people who know eachother, I think it's much more likely that they would simply not want them to go to jail, or be punished at all for that matter.
 
This isn't reddit you idiot.
Of course not, its just one of thousands of online forums of the php, bbs, vbulletin, wordpress and xenforo type around the internet that are easily modded into whatever the owner/de facto site runners feels like. Its not like thousands of those communities were turned to trash or anything by a combination of shilling shitheads and moderati enforcement.
 
I think it's much more likely that they would simply not want them to go to jail

Either you prosecute sexual assault as sexual assault in a court of law, or you don't. Trying to get a person expelled from school but you don't want them to go to jail? I guess the victim doesn't care if that person continues sexually assaulting others outside of campus. That sounds kinda selfish.

School tribunals aren't courts of law. They should not be used as trials to judge sexual assault cases. They aren't fit to pass judgement.

2. Since when are campus police not real police? I must've missed that memo

Since they started hiring "officers" with even lower IQs than the low standard demanded for regular police departments. They're basically hall monitors with guns.
 
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Yeah, you're kinda really over simplfying why people would or would not go to the police? Is it because of the lower evidence requirement? For some sure, yeah. Is that the reason for everyone? Fuck no.
It is for enough people that it's an issue.

Like getting someone fired at work for touching your ass. You can't prove it, but you can as sure as hell fuck their shit up, with the lower standards that HR provides. I think it's much more than just an occasional issue. It's the natural direction for these sorts of emotional situations to lead.

If you believe you've been violated (whether or not that's actually true from an objective standpoint), but you can't prove it, you'll get so frothing mad you'll resort to whatever you can to get redress. It's completely unacceptable for universities that receive federal funding to play ball with this kind of nonsense.
I'm having a really hard time believing either of these points are true.
You aren't allowed to cross examine witnesses, for example. Also schools are allowed to permit you to see counsel, but that's the school's decision.

If the accused gets a not guilty verdict, there's an appeals process for that. Hooray, double jeopardy!

Edit: Originally I wrote "guilty" above. Obviously appealing a guilty verdict isn't a problem. Appealing a not guilty verdict is double jeopardy though.
The way Title IX mandates that universities handle these situations isn't the best, and I would be supportive of a better alternative obviously.
It's more than just "not the best". It's actively malicious.
 
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Yeah, you're kinda really over simplfying why people would or would not go to the police? Is it because of the lower evidence requirement? For some sure, yeah. Is that the reason for everyone? Fuck no.

Also, only 42% of sexual assault cases involve the victim consuming alcohol.

However, 90% of rapes involve alcohol. But just because alcohol was involved does not mean "we both got drunk and in the morning I sobered up"
Yeah it's called hyperbole.
I'm having a really hard time believing either of these points are true.
Of course you are, I bet you think only 6% to 8% of rape cases turn out to be false too even though that's proven bullshit.
Well, that depends. How many have been brought up already? How many are brought up per year? Is this amount smaller or greater than the number of lawsuits brought up against courts per year when the amount of crime is controlled for?
61 colleges so far have lost due process claims. Out of 53 colleges surveyed by fire, 85% received a d or an f for supporting due process and only 47% required fact finders to be impartial.
 
Of course you are, I bet you think only 6% to 8% of rape cases turn out to be false too even though that's proven bullshit.
61 colleges so far have lost due process claims. Out of 53 colleges surveyed by fire, 85% received a d or an f for supporting due process and only 47% required fact finders to be impartial.

The Mattress Girl case wasn't even a case of the school adjudication system failing, though. It had more or less exonerated the accused. Where they fell down is then they let this psychotic lunatic harass her victim for years afterwards.

And if you can't prove a case in one of these rigged kangaroo courts where being a fucking white male and just man-breathing is being a rapist, you have no credible case at all. If anything, the dude himself had a Title IX claim for allowing him to be harassed and defamed in violation of their anti-harassment policies solely because the perp was a woman.
 
Personally, I'm all for this crap being taken down. It's given universities judicial powers over matters they are incompetent to handle and belong more properly in the hands of actual law enforcement, and it's screwed over people who have been subjected to witch hunts that make the Red Scare seem tame.
 
This cunt is a lawyer in Texas, a civil rights attorney at that, and was stupid enough to tweet that using his public twitter account.

That's the sort of thing that can get you the attention of the bar association.
 
I guess the victim doesn't care if that person continues sexually assaulting others outside of campus.

That would be a bit unlikely. Only 12-24% of sex offenders reoffend, and when they do, it's usually not sexual or violent
http://www.csom.org/pubs/needtoknow_fs.pdf

School tribunals aren't courts of law. They should not be used as trials to judge sexual assault cases. They aren't fit to pass judgement.

School tribunals aren't courts of law, which is why someone cannot be sent to jail just because their university found them guilty of a crime.

It should ultimately be up to the university to decide who does and does not attend their institution (within reason, of course). If a school finds that one of their students is breaking school rules, then the school should be able to punish them.

I think most of the problem stems from the fact that even being accused of sexual assault has a strong chance of fucking up someone's life. But that ultimately stems from a more cultural notion towards these problems, and no amount of repealing legislation is going to change that cultural notion in any meaningful way.

Since they started hiring "officers" with even lower IQs than the low standard demanded for regular police departments. They're basically hall monitors with guns.

Maybe for some universities, but certainly not all. And I strongly doubt most.

Let's look at Ohio State University's requirements to become an officer:
https://dps.osu.edu/police-careers

Now let's look at Columbus's requirements to become an officer:
https://www.criminaljusticedegreesc...umbus-police-department-officer-requirements/

They aren't super different. If anything, OSU is a bit more rigorous as they require 72 college credit hours to serve, whereas Columbus PD only requires a high school diploma or equivalent.

If you believe you've been violated (whether or not that's actually true from an objective standpoint), but you can't prove it, you'll get so frothing mad you'll resort to whatever you can to get redress. It's completely unacceptable for universities that receive federal funding to play ball with this kind of nonsense.

I stated this above, but again, this is ultimately more of a cultural problem. Even without this component of Title IX, it's going to do jack shit to actually stop false rape accusations. With a fair amount of PR, it can be fairly easy to get a university's administration to bend down and at the very least issue some sort of statement.

If anything, keeping this part of Title IX intact would at least give the accused some sort of platform to defend his or herself. It also gives the university justification for not reprimanding the accused by claiming they conducted their own investigation.

You aren't allowed to cross examine witnesses, for example.

I won't deny that. But like calling into question both party's sexual history, it can be very emotionally demanding or even damaging. Cross examinations can be pretty brutal and that would be a major deterrent for actual victims reporting their case.

That being said, I wouldn't be against cross examination so long as it would be handled in a way that wouldn't make possible victims fearful.

Also schools are allowed to permit you to see counsel, but that's the school's decision.

The school cannot restrict you from seeing an attorney, only keep you from having one represent you, which applies to both the accused and the accuser.

If the accused gets a guilty verdict, there's an appeals process for that. Hooray, double jeopardy!

I don't see what the problem is here. If the accused feels that they were wrongly convicted, wouldn't it be a good thing that they are able to appeal it? Are you saying that they shouldn't be allowed to appeal their conviction?

Yeah it's called hyperbole.

Sounds more like a shitty excuse for a poor claim, but what ever.

Of course you are, I bet you think only 6% to 8% of rape cases turn out to be false too even though that's proven bullshit.

The best source I could find is from the FBI, which stated:
"Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,”

So what's the proof against this?


Yeah, there are a few problems with this study.

1. Given how small the sample size is, it seems a little odd that the actual sources used to gather this evidence aren't listed. Is there a citation page anywhere? Because I can't find one.

2. No authors for the study are listed. Which is odd, because looking at the "People" section of their website, a lot of these people seem to have a bit of a conflict of interest with this, and I'm really struggling to believe that their personal biases would not have had an impact on this study.

3. The allocation of points is kinda... bad. I checked Lehigh University, and the first thing they say is that the accused is presumed innocent. However, the only received a 1 for this. The next two points regard written notification and notification of time to prepare, but the study you linked put both of those down as a 0.

I could go through each and everyone one of these, but I'd be here all night and I really don't want to be here all night. But needless to say, this raises quite a number of questions in regards to this study.
 
While we're at it can we ramp up the punishment for women who falsely claim rape? Considering how damning it is for a man to even be accused of rape, there should be severe consequences.

@SwanDive Stop being a cuck.
 
The coward made his account private.
 
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