Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

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One other thing I remember about 4e was that the warlord class was really cool. They did something completely martial that did support stuff and I felt like it worked really well. If I could trade in dragonborn for warlord I would in a heartbeat. Shit man, I'd trade in warlock.
 
4e has the easiest to run module design I've ever experienced to the point swapping to anything else feels almost painful.
Can you elaborate?
 
One other thing I remember about 4e was that the warlord class was really cool. They did something completely martial that did support stuff and I felt like it worked really well. If I could trade in dragonborn for warlord I would in a heartbeat. Shit man, I'd trade in warlock.

Warlord was thematically awesome but a little difficult to slot into play.
They were statted out about like a Cleric, but while Clerics had some ranged powers nearly all the warlord powers required you to be in melee. They didn't even get scale armor or heavy shields by default. They also have the traditional Paladin problem of needing high STR, and because they are on the front lines a good CON, but then also CHR (or INT) - though less of an issue in 4e since they reduced the effect of CON on HP - but unlike Paladins they don't have a lot of surges.

All that said, busting in to the battle and telling the dying fighter "Stop laying there and fight!" or hitting an enemy so hard the ranger regains hitpoints is great fun.

Can you elaborate?

For most of the run, Wizards mandated that encounters take up no more than a two-page spread. This means you open your splat, and everything you as a DM need for the night is right there: Monsters, map, tactics, room features, treasure, anything the players would turn up with a successful search.

And monster stat blocks. They have clearly laid out stat blocks, powers are clearly noted by what they can do. Again, everything you need to run the monster is right there. 5e monsters aren't bad, but they aren't as clearly laid out as 4e.
 
And monster stat blocks. They have clearly laid out stat blocks, powers are clearly noted by what they can do. Again, everything you need to run the monster is right there. 5e monsters aren't bad, but they aren't as clearly laid out as 4e.
4e's statblocks were so nice. No fluff taking up space, just stats, and the important stats were right at the top.

Also, 5e really missed the boat not using more triggered monster abilities.
 
One of the things that really annoyed me about the fan response to 4e was whining that "the books look like reference manuals and aren't a pleasure to read." 4e is hand-down the absolute winner among D&D editions for organization and layout, because when I am referencing a book in a game, I want it to be a reference manual. But WotC needs to also cater to the crowd that has no friends and can't play D&D, so all they can do is read the books, I guess.
 
Spelljammer is not scifi, its fantasy in space, but your general overall point is correct. Idiots who think 5e is the only ttrpg have tried to adapt 5e to all sorts of settings and genres, including scifi.
I ran into this issue with my group too fairly recently. I was on a scifi kick and wanted to run a game of Cyberpunk. I've been kind of burnt out on fantasy and I was willing to DM if they were on board.

"Why don't we just use 5E and reflavor it?"

Fucking what nigger? How am I supposed to reflavor 5E into a cyberpunk setting you're just asking me to make a whole new game you dumb assholes. I'm not gonna spend the effort to do that, just read a different book for once you losers.
 
I ran into this issue with my group too fairly recently. I was on a scifi kick and wanted to run a game of Cyberpunk. I've been kind of burnt out on fantasy and I was willing to DM if they were on board.

"Why don't we just use 5E and reflavor it?"

Fucking what nigger? How am I supposed to reflavor 5E into a cyberpunk setting you're just asking me to make a whole new game you dumb assholes. I'm not gonna spend the effort to do that, just read a different book for once you losers.
5e Players once again proving that they are in fact illiterate.
I don't understand this anomaly with them.
You can't even get them to try simpler systems most of the time.
I've even had a group of older players that would run anything & everything move to 5e & just bury their heads in the sand with that system.
I know others on here have complained about it but has anyone else thought about how fucking weird it is?
In any other hobby people will have niches & favorites yes but almost always move to some kind of variety.
What's different here?
I can't place it.
 
One of the things that really annoyed me about the fan response to 4e was whining that "the books look like reference manuals and aren't a pleasure to read." 4e is hand-down the absolute winner among D&D editions for organization and layout, because when I am referencing a book in a game, I want it to be a reference manual. But WotC needs to also cater to the crowd that has no friends and can't play D&D, so all they can do is read the books, I guess.
I've always wondered if Wizards purposefully nerfed 5Es graphic design to curtail the complaints that 4th was "too much like an MMO" and "too combat focused" so they purposefully obfuscated the technical side of things. Or maybe they were cheapskates and didn't want to pay the more talented 4E graphic designers.

Never played 4th but I've raided it for monster abilities in 5th and it's layout superiority always baffles me in comparison.
 
5e Players once again proving that they are in fact illiterate.
I don't understand this anomaly with them.
You can't even get them to try simpler systems most of the time.
I've even had a group of older players that would run anything & everything move to 5e & just bury their heads in the sand with that system.
I know others on here have complained about it but has anyone else thought about how fucking weird it is?
In any other hobby people will have niches & favorites yes but almost always move to some kind of variety.
What's different here?
I can't place it.
I think it's a weird combination of convenience and comfort. It's like ordering the same meal every time you go to a restaurant. They already know 5E and everyone else does so why bother to learn Fate or something? Reading new books and learning new rules or having to be 'new' to something again is too scary and annoying.

Which you know whatever if fantasy or fantasy adjacent stuff is all you want to play then it works more or less. My DM has run us through fantasy wild west and fantasy piracy campaigns and that's cool but I'm not going to do that for a fucking scifi setting.
 
On a marginally related note, how do y'all feel about homebrew systems?
I know a lot of people say "The best system for you is the one you build yourself" but I hardly hear any talk on the subject outside of that.
Most of the conversations I see online circulate around the industry & what's going on with official products.
I'll see some people pop up & go "I'm making a game, go look at my kickstarter" but almost nothing else on the topic.
Yet when I talk to people one on one, most are excited to jump in and dev their own game if not multiple.
So why does the topic of it just whither on the vine in public spaces?
 
On a marginally related note, how do y'all feel about homebrew systems?
I know a lot of people say "The best system for you is the one you build yourself" but I hardly hear any talk on the subject outside of that.
Most of the conversations I see online circulate around the industry & what's going on with official products.
I'll see some people pop up & go "I'm making a game, go look at my kickstarter" but almost nothing else on the topic.
Yet when I talk to people one on one, most are excited to jump in and dev their own game if not multiple.
So why does the topic of it just whither on the vine in public spaces?
Because honestly each group has its own homebrew, and more often than not if you have a completely original homebrew you're probably considering releasing it as a game. At least by my reckoning.
 
I've always wondered if Wizards purposefully nerfed 5Es graphic design to curtail the complaints that 4th was "too much like an MMO" and "too combat focused" so they purposefully obfuscated the technical side of things. Or maybe they were cheapskates and didn't want to pay the more talented 4E graphic designers.

Never played 4th but I've raided it for monster abilities in 5th and it's layout superiority always baffles me in comparison.
They really threw the baby out with the bathwater with 4e to 5e. 4e had its problems, but if a car model sells poorly, you dont make the next model have square wheels because "the model that sold poorly had round wheels". The pendulum swung from tabletop videogame to pure play-pretend for people who think laced shoes are too complex. There are people bitching in the One D&D test about how having feats (which they could just not take) makes Fighter too complimikated.
 
I've always wondered if Wizards purposefully nerfed 5Es graphic design to curtail the complaints that 4th was "too much like an MMO" and "too combat focused" so they purposefully obfuscated the technical side of things. Or maybe they were cheapskates and didn't want to pay the more talented 4E graphic designers.

Never played 4th but I've raided it for monster abilities in 5th and it's layout superiority always baffles me in comparison.

Everything about the 5e launch was heavily iterated based on user response. In that regard, they did an excellent job, and 5e is the highest-selling D&D edition for which we have numbers (and it probably beats 1e, for which we lack reliable numbers). They didn't cheap out; they completely changed focus. They hired better artists, there are more full-color plates, and every page has that fake parchment look. They went for form over function. 4e books pay a lot of attention to a functional, efficient layout. This upset people. There's still a lot of 4e influence if you look. 5e's monster stat blocks are very similar to 4e's, it's just that there aren't many variants any more because most of the page space is taken up by artwork and lore. But I guess people would rather have pretty pictures than anything they can use in a game.
 
5e's accessibility may help it, how easy it is to have someone's retard THOT GF join in with no knowledge or effort, but I think that aspect is overblown. The popularity of critical role and "nerd culture" being a mainstream normy fad and all the advertising is IMO the biggest contributing factors in 5e's popularity. I dont think D&D adding more options to martials than "durr i attack" or having choices for your character past Lv3 would tank its popularity.
 
In other news, I got to look at Blood Brothers last night for a podcast. I actually find it a very fine twist on how Call of Cthulhu can be played. It's basically a series of adventures where you're effectively in a terrible B-movie or the sort of dreck that HP Lovecraft would shit all over.

Some of the modules I personally found to be kind of snoozers. The Phantom of the Opera scenario was pretty limp for example. But then there's you play the mob and you fight gangster Dracula.

It's a series of adventures that expects you to not play smart and it's charming because of that.
 
On a marginally related note, how do y'all feel about homebrew systems?
I know a lot of people say "The best system for you is the one you build yourself" but I hardly hear any talk on the subject outside of that.
Most of the conversations I see online circulate around the industry & what's going on with official products.
I'll see some people pop up & go "I'm making a game, go look at my kickstarter" but almost nothing else on the topic.
Yet when I talk to people one on one, most are excited to jump in and dev their own game if not multiple.
So why does the topic of it just whither on the vine in public spaces?
The system has to serve the game. IMO a ground-up homebrew system is kind of pointless unless there's a game you want to play for which no existing product really works.

If your game idea is another twist on "a party of fantasy adventures dives into the depths of the earth to fight ever-scarier monsters," well, that's already done very well by D&D. "Yes, but I don't want it to be woke." Then ACKS has you covered. "Yes, but I want it to be even more woke." Then pick up Pathfinder.

So what is your game idea?
 
2) Combat gets sloggy. This isn't a problem with the important boss battles, but it is with the general mook encounters. As a DM, it limits your ability to encourage players to move along, because a random encounter will pretty much be the session. Which will annoy me as the GM as much as the players.
There are ways to home brew around this (i.e. just abstract random encounters to suck healing surges) but nothing official.
folklore solved that by having certain encounters be "skirmishes" where you don't bust out the map and minis, you just roll towards an enemies skirmish stats till either everyone is dead or flees.
maybe wotc & co want to save time and bet on a DM's common sense, like not rolling dice for everything.

also liked the 4e art, but maybe that's just me...

4e's statblocks were so nice. No fluff taking up space, just stats, and the important stats were right at the top.

Also, 5e really missed the boat not using more triggered monster abilities.
you could always play pf2e.

Lol "It's too complicated." Nigga it's only 4 things.
the duality of dndrones, "it's too boring and simple but everything else is to complicated and crunchy"

I think it's a weird combination of convenience and comfort. It's like ordering the same meal every time you go to a restaurant. They already know 5E and everyone else does so why bother to learn Fate or something? Reading new books and learning new rules or having to be 'new' to something again is too scary and annoying.

Which you know whatever if fantasy or fantasy adjacent stuff is all you want to play then it works more or less. My DM has run us through fantasy wild west and fantasy piracy campaigns and that's cool but I'm not going to do that for a fucking scifi setting.
it's dnd, it's like r34, there's shit for everything.

case in point:

it's not like there's much alternative anyway, either cyberpunk jank, shadowrun where you best be able to read kraut or genesys android with it's custom dice. rest is even more niche, might as well bust out GURPS and go ham.
 
What
The system has to serve the game. IMO a ground-up homebrew system is kind of pointless unless there's a game you want to play for which no existing product really works.

If your game idea is another twist on "a party of fantasy adventures dives into the depths of the earth to fight ever-scarier monsters," well, that's already done very well by D&D. "Yes, but I don't want it to be woke." Then ACKS has you covered. "Yes, but I want it to be even more woke." Then pick up Pathfinder.

So what is your game idea?
my group does is closer to house-rules-as-system but we'll adjust it or use something completely different based on tone, setting, & genre.
One thing that's made our model shine for us is player crafted feats.
Each build is tailored to the character so we get to have builds without worrying about viability in game.
 
One of the things that really annoyed me about the fan response to 4e was whining that "the books look like reference manuals and aren't a pleasure to read." 4e is hand-down the absolute winner among D&D editions for organization and layout, because when I am referencing a book in a game, I want it to be a reference manual. But WotC needs to also cater to the crowd that has no friends and can't play D&D, so all they can do is read the books, I guess.
For the PHB the lay out of individual sections is superb. Inclusion of material in chapters is never perfect but really good.

Where the PHB for 4e falls over is the ORDER of the chapters once you get past classes. Skills are separated from combat and adventuring by feats and equipment. Rituals are shoved in the back. PHB2 & 3 also have some order problems, but much, much less pronounced.

The other sort of problem is that 90% of 4e is laid out so very nicely and accessibly, that when things are NOT it really stands out. 4e has a lexicon of keywords and very specific terms but the glossary of them isn't sort of buried in the class introduction.
The lexicon also has a problem with words that are sometimes used in the specific Mechanical sense, and sometimes in a flavor text, and its very clear they were shoehorned by using the words other editions used.

On a marginally related note, how do y'all feel about homebrew systems?
I know a lot of people say "The best system for you is the one you build yourself" but I hardly hear any talk on the subject outside of that.
Most of the conversations I see online circulate around the industry & what's going on with official products.
I'll see some people pop up & go "I'm making a game, go look at my kickstarter" but almost nothing else on the topic.
Yet when I talk to people one on one, most are excited to jump in and dev their own game if not multiple.
So why does the topic of it just whither on the vine in public spaces?
Homebrewing is making something hyper-focused for a specific table. A lot of homebrew would be utterly broken away from the table it is developed for.

Some groups, you can give them the magic Light Sword that will slice through any material and they'll use it to bypass DR on golems as it was intended.
Other groups will think outside the box and use it start cutting open doors.
Other groups will instead focus on breaking the game and ask "how long would it take to use this to drill into the underdark?".

folklore solved that by having certain encounters be "skirmishes" where you don't bust out the map and minis, you just roll towards an enemies skirmish stats till either everyone is dead or flees.
maybe wotc & co want to save time and bet on a DM's common sense, like not rolling dice for everything.

also liked the 4e art, but maybe that's just me...

The problem with "Skirmishes" is how tanky 4e characters are if you give them 5 minutes to catch their breath.

In one campaign, the party had to cross a dangerous area regularly. So I reduced the complexity to "Roll Nature/Streetwise/Dungeoneering, pull some things off the RET, and then have them roll and just peel off healing surges" and someone in the party could sacrifice a daily to just auto-win a random encounter. The issue was dinging them for healing surges wasn't a great deterrent because one long rest and they were back to full. So it was mostly just pointless and slightly frustrating for players.

The only real solution there is up the urgency and make it so they can't take a long rest, but that tends to just make everyone feel rushed and frazzled and stresses the players in the bad way, not the fun way.

And I also like 4e's art. I felt it sat in the perfect zone of being descriptive and interesting without being overly detailed.
 
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