General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[AnOminous]

I don't think Rowling is being paranoid to say trannies want to rape her when a huge number of them were threatening to murder, rape and do vile things to her even just on twitter.

 

[Hypothermia]

My thoughts are simple: they are mentally ill and need genuine therapy, not genital mutilation.
How many surgeries would make a man look like a woman? Take synthetic oestrogen, get bolt-ons, get your dick chopped, get "facial feminisation surgery"... It still wouldn't work. Surgery isn't a cure for a mental illness. I think that SRS should be illegal for mutilation of mentally ill people and for being literal human experimentation.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

Is there a book on transgender people, with data/science/facts behind it's claims, that transgender people are okay with?

I see lots of lists of books that are allegedly transphobic and hateful - which I haven't personally found when I read them - so I'm just wondering if there's some alternatives they'd even be able to point to. I've tried searching for it repeatedly, and all that comes up are autobiographical accounts, anecdotal stories, manifesto-type essays and awkward, debatable attempts to reframe the past (drag acts, "third gender" tribes) in ways that support their beliefs.

All of the openly supportive, Twitter-addict doctors and therapists don't seem to have written anything, nor do they have any recommended reading lists. It's just long lists of books by doctors and mental health professionals that apparently are unacceptable to read, or even exist.

Presumably there's at least one scientific/data-proven book out there they can point to?

I remember a few years ago I read an article about the "gay gene". You don't really hear about that concept as much anymore but back in the early 2000's when being gay was still kind of controversial it was a pretty common talking point. Thing is there was never any actual evidence of that, it was a hypothesis that was latched on to by the gay community and their supporters because removed all ambiguity from the situation. If it's genetic that doesn't mean any of those stereotypes are real, right? It's no different then being black or having blue eyes or whatever. So religious conservative people are then put in a position where they are arguing with people who are living with something they have no control over.

That article I read was about how scientists looking into this "gay gene" found absolutely no evidence for it, but in the end they just sort of slip in that it's probably real anyway, they just need to look harder. I read that and was like "wait, what the fuck?". They had a conclusion they were trying to reach, couldn't reach it, then decided they were going to assume it was reached anyway and just keep trying to prove it.

It's impossible to get any clear answer on this nature/nurture shit because this issue is so emotionally charged and divisive that any attempt to be objective is just always going to be undermined by confirmation bias. Everybody's got an ideology, and they're all trying to force reality into it. I have yet to find a book about this stuff that approached it in a detached way or didn't make its conclusion long before it got its evidence.

Personally from what I can gather is that everyone (not just trans people) a product of a lot of different things. Some of it is stuff you're born with, some of it is something you learned from others or your culture, some of it is a psychological response to experiences you've had. But it's never simple. The nature/nurture debate is pretty meaningless because it's probably both, like it is with most things involving people.

 

[AnOminous]

That article I read was about how scientists looking into this "gay gene" found absolutely no evidence for it, but in the end they just sort of slip in that it's probably real anyway, they just need to look harder. I read that and was like "wait, what the fuck?". They had a conclusion they were trying to reach, couldn't reach it, then decided they were going to assume it was reached anyway and just keep trying to prove it.

There's obviously a genetic component. Twin studies using dizygotic and homozygotic twins found a much stronger correlation of the trait in both homozygotic twins:

Thirty-eight pairs of monozygotic twins (34 male pairs and 4 female pairs) were found to have a concordance rate of 65.8% for homosexual orientation. Twenty-three pairs of dizygotic twins were found to have a concordance rate of 30.4% for homosexual orientation.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1993-homosexual-orientation-in-twins.html

Having identical genes means a nearly two-thirds chance of sharing that trait. It's pretty unlikely there's an actual "gay gene" that 100% turns you gay, because if there were that would be 100%. 65.8% is really strong evidence it isn't just conditions in the wound or nurture or pure personal choice. There are probably lots of genes that are correlated with it in one way or the other, much like normally distributed IQ (i.e. not trisomy people).

 

[thegooddoctor]

My thoughts are simple: they are mentally ill and need genuine therapy, not genital mutilation.
How many surgeries would make a man look like a woman? Take synthetic oestrogen, get bolt-ons, get your dick chopped, get "facial feminisation surgery"... It still wouldn't work. Surgery isn't a cure for a mental illness. I think that SRS should be illegal for mutilation of mentally ill people and for being literal human experimentation.

I’m tired of seeing this line of thought in every thread discussing transgenderism, you may know me from
the guy who got absolutely blasted on the tranny sideshows thread a few weeks ago, I argued that I just didn’t agree with the vitriol people have with actual transgenderism as a concept. I thought they were just making fun of the worst and most devint of people in the community who are making the whole group look worse. I didn’t think they despised and discredited the very concept of transgenderism itself. I was lambasted regardless and I admit maybe it wasn’t the right place to posting support of trans people, my mistake.

I want to repeat my points I said there though saying I just don’t like how you kiwis seem to act like ALL people affected with trans thoughts or considering transitioning are automatically insane or mentally ill sexual deviants. Gender dysphoria is absolutely a real tangible thing many children and teens suffer from and I find it ludicrous people act her was if it’s something that can be cured or even needs to be. Many of these people are non binary, gender confused teens who are still going through puberty and aren’t even fully developed physically or mentally yet. They aren’t trying to make themselves the centre of attention or want to become sexual deviants who become SJW screeching bitches who ruin everyone else’s time forcing there ideologies on those who aren’t interested. They’re just kids who want to transition quietly into their desired gender and hope society will accept them for who they are inside, I know that sounds incredibly corny and cliche, but it’s really that simple.

The fact that so many even on serious threads like these feel like that this legitimate mental state, needs to be wiped clean from the world, like some systematic brainwashing or genetic cleansing, “cough, World war 2 Germany, Cough, Third reich Cough” is ludicrous and frankly kind of disturbing. Transgenderism will always be a thing and you cannot control people’s feelings and thoughts about themselves pr their gender no matter how much you may wish to wash away transgenderism from the LGBT community. Stop playing god and acting like you know what’s best for society.

 

[Help Me Move This Table]

Many of these people are non binary,

Not a real thing

gender confused teens who are still going through puberty and aren’t even fully developed physically or mentally yet.

Exactly

They’re just kids who want to transition quietly into their desired gender and hope society will accept them for who they are inside, I know that sounds incredibly corny and cliche, but it’s really that simple.

“Take these drugs and cut up your body (before you are fully mentally developed!) and everyone will love the REAL you!”

Stop playing god and acting like you know what’s best for society.

Exactly

 

[Gilgamesh]

What really irks me about some of the leftist sphere that focuses on gender and transgenderism is how they are unknowingly reinforcing traditional gender roles. Anyone that presents as "fem", be it transitioning into a woman, femboys, traps, etc, is expected to be submissive and docile, homemaker, all that. And people presenting as masculine are expected to be the opposite. Dominant, breadwinner, etc. It's ok that my girlfriend is feminine and is the "dominant" one in the relationship (primary income maker, head of household). We shouldn't correlate with fem=submissive and masc=dominance. I wouldn't be surprised if a few people who transitioned into men did so because they felt dominate either sexually, domestically, or whatever, and saw that society equates dominance with masculinity. Same for people who transitioned into women. It's better that we just get rid of the roles of "dominate/submissive" all together. It pervades a lot of everyday life. The based Christian way would to just treat everyone as equal, regardless of gender or whatever.

This reinforcement of gender roles actually hurts other causes such as feminism, and I would argue that women's rights (especially in places like Saudi Arabia) is a much more pressing issue we should deal with rather than transgenderism. I can kinda see where radical feminists are coming from. It does feel almost like a "infiltration" when men transitioning to women say they are now oppressed to. It's downplaying the movement.
That being said, I really don't give a fuck about pronouns. I meet a lot of gender-nuts as I work in the academic sphere and if they want to be called a he/she/they, I'll call them it. It takes zero effort on my part. Sometimes I slip up and they correct me, but it isn't rude or anything. If you seethe and whine on forum sites because someone wants you to refer to them as "she", then you're cringe and should probably seek some help.

Instead of focusing on the total deconstruction of gender and sexuality, I wish the left would go back to advocating for worker's rights and greater economic equality. The sudden explosion of leftist-"social issues" in the last 20 years is no doubt work by the 1% who want to hide the fact that they're taking all of our money and making it harder and harder for the average person to gain financial security. Then again, the right isn't doing any better here either.

 

[Toluene Blood]

The fact that so many even on serious threads like these feel like that this legitimate mental state, needs to be wiped clean from the world

If current policies for "believing trans children" were followed, since nearly every girl feels a desire to be a boy within a week of her first period and continues to feel the desire on a continuous and recurring (i.e. periodic) basis, nearly every girl would thus meet the criteria for being a trans boy. I'm sure that you don't really think that nearly 100% of girls are really trans so what criteria do you propose for sorting the "real" from the "fake"? Remember that taking kids' words at anything other than face value is bigotry. In some places questioning them is even illegal.

Of course kids are "nonbinary" in the sense that they don't have a gender identity until they learn one from interacting with the world. You seriously think a squalling 1-day-old baby naturally knows how to cry in a girly vs manly way? What needs to be stopped is the rampant medicalization of the normal process of maturation.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

I’m tired of seeing this line of thought in every thread discussing transgenderism, you may know me from
the guy who got absolutely blasted on the tranny sideshows thread a few weeks ago, I argued that I just didn’t agree with the vitriol people have with actual transgenderism as a concept. I thought they were just making fun of the worst and most devint of people in the community who are making the whole group look worse. I didn’t think they despised and discredited the very concept of transgenderism itself. I was lambasted regardless and I admit maybe it wasn’t the right place to posting support of trans people, my mistake.

I want to repeat my points I said there though saying I just don’t like how you kiwis seem to act like ALL people affected with trans thoughts or considering transitioning are automatically insane or mentally ill sexual deviants. Gender dysphoria is absolutely a real tangible thing many children and teens suffer from and I find it ludicrous people act her was if it’s something that can be cured or even needs to be. Many of these people are non binary, gender confused teens who are still going through puberty and aren’t even fully developed physically or mentally yet. They aren’t trying to make themselves the centre of attention or want to become sexual deviants who become SJW screeching bitches who ruin everyone else’s time forcing there ideologies on those who aren’t interested. They’re just kids who want to transition quietly into their desired gender and hope society will accept them for who they are inside, I know that sounds incredibly corny and cliche, but it’s really that simple.

The fact that so many even on serious threads like these feel like that this legitimate mental state, needs to be wiped clean from the world, like some systematic brainwashing or genetic cleansing, “cough, World war 2 Germany, Cough, Third reich Cough” is ludicrous and frankly kind of disturbing. Transgenderism will always be a thing and you cannot control people’s feelings and thoughts about themselves pr their gender no matter how much you may wish to wash away transgenderism from the LGBT community. Stop playing god and acting like you know what’s best for society.

Children should not be allowed to make life altering decisions, and identity is not a static object. This is my only real gripe with what you said here. No shit the farms is full of bigoted morons with a massive chip on their shoulder about trans women because of a terminal case of small dick syndrome. But when you're talking about something as nebulous as "identity" the idea that you pop out of the womb with one is just a really shallow way of looking at the human experience. Most little boys act kind of feminine compared to your typical grown ass man, for example. Is the latter a lie, or was the former a lie? Who's the "real" you?

Hint: there is no real you, you're under no contract to be the same exact person a year from now, and you won't be.

Never mind that most of what we consider gender is a social construct. The importance we attach to gender, what roles we assign it in society, how we define it, that's all cultural. Most trans people in the US are transitioning into a western centric and highly culturally engrained image of what a man or a woman is then claiming it is biological. We're starting to mistake stereotyped ideal with the realities of people, and shocker it's gone along with an explosion in kids suddenly deciding they are not only the opposite gender, but no gender at all, or just generally having no coherent sense of ACTUAL identity. We're talking about people who are trying to escape gender norms by attaching so much fucking importance to them that now if your male son likes the color pink we immediately assume he is expressing some sort of biological hatred of his own body. There's no coherent point A to point B logic going on here anymore. The same people telling us to look past sexist stereotypes now think a lifestyle devoted to expressing them is the height of nobility, so long as you have the opposite genitals of what people would expect. I seriously don't understand how the fuck anybody is managing to keep these two ideas in their head at the same time, but a cursory glance at trans twitter and you'll realize that sort of insane doublethink is increasingly the norm.

I really don't understand what the fuck is happening anymore, and fucking nobody does. Gender dysphoria in the classic sense is a very, very, specific issue certain people have where they feel such a strong disconnect between their brains and their bodies that it causes continual distress. I have a hard time believing this is so amazingly common.

I don't hate anybody, and I wouldn't tell anybody how to live. But I'd also be lying if I wasn't increasingly resentful that I can't ask questions about this kind of crap without immediately getting compared to Hitler. The other day on reddit I saw somebody ask what a "cis person" was and instead of explaining this concept like 10 trans people and their "allies" piled on this idiot and just immediately started calling him an ignorant bigot. Because if you don't know about this shit you must have an agenda I guess?

How the fuck are we supposed to have an honest conversation about what a better country looks like if we're so emotionally caught up in our own bullshit that we can't even talk about the fucking terminology anymore without getting mad?

 

[BipolarPon]

I don't know why you are called a bigot for saying trans athletes have a unfair advantages in sports. Caitlin Jenner pointed it out, but the transgender movement gets infurious for such over that.

 

[Fish Fudge]

There's obviously a genetic component. Twin studies using dizygotic and homozygotic twins found a much stronger correlation of the trait in both homozygotic twins:

Having identical genes means a nearly two-thirds chance of sharing that trait. It's pretty unlikely there's an actual "gay gene" that 100% turns you gay, because if there were that would be 100%. 65.8% is really strong evidence it isn't just conditions in the wound or nurture or pure personal choice. There are probably lots of genes that are correlated with it in one way or the other, much like normally distributed IQ (i.e. not trisomy people).

Definitely interesting, I hadn't come across that study. It does seem at this stage, for it to be increasingly unlikely that there's any "gay gene" which I think explains why that's quietly slipped away from the conversation around it. Saying that, I do remember reading that there's a potential explanation around hormone exposure in the womb on the brain of a developing fetus. There doesn't seem anything wholly concrete to point to, but it could arguably be used as an explanation for patients suffering from actual gender dysphoria too.

Either way, there does seem to be a definite genetic component, with a number of other influencing factors.

non binary

Non-binary isn't a thing, and anyone trying to claim it is ironically just enforces sexist beliefs about how men and women are allowed to behave.

 

[AMHOLIO]

Anyone that presents as "fem", be it transitioning into a woman, femboys, traps, etc, is expected to be submissive and docile, homemaker, all that.

Not quite: submissive and docile yes, homemaker? No. Too many men who don't practice personal or household hygiene. Many can't assed to cook, and there's a startling load of married men with kids who troon out and DON'T do anything aside from tweet, wear make up, go out with the "girls", etc and shaft their partner (note, these fuckers are bad because they signed up for a partnership, not for gender roles). So I can see some expecting men to call themselves or are women just because they cook and or clean, but the reality is different.

Anyway, the rest of your post is great.

This reinforcement of gender roles actually hurts other causes such as feminism, and I would argue that women's rights (especially in places like Saudi Arabia) is a much more pressing issue we should deal with rather than transgenderism. I can kinda see where radical feminists are coming from. It does feel almost like a "infiltration" when men transitioning to women say they are now oppressed to. It's downplaying the movement.

God fucking this. If troons actually cared about women more would speak up on shit like acid attacks, honor killing, female baby abortion, and general excommunication for doing something wrong as a woman.

The most I've seen is troons petition for abortion rights since all their friends do it, and what if THEY wanted an abortion from the theoretical uterus transplant they want??? (fuck off)

Instead of focusing on the total deconstruction of gender and sexuality, I wish the left would go back to advocating for worker's rights and greater economic equality. The sudden explosion of leftist-"social issues" in the last 20 years is no doubt work by the 1% who want to hide the fact that they're taking all of our money and making it harder and harder for the average person to gain financial security. Then again, the right isn't doing any better here either.

This so much. The common worker is only slightly less pissed on depending on the day from both parties. Life is fat and gay, but I hope to continue to try and do what I can in my community to remind people gorls and goys can respect each other and enjoy different hobbies, and our biggest challenge is always the people in power and big structures that treat workers like dirt to cut cost.

@feedtheoctopus

Hint: there is no real you, you're under no contract to be the same exact person a year from now, and you won't be.

It's a shame this isn't taught more. It's not a bad thing to want an identity and to belong, but having all your personality tied up to a movement or identity tends to either stagnate your growth or make you unhappy as a person as you don't feel allowed to change. Rolling through groups and movements is fine. The actions you choose now aren't going to permanently stain your hands in social embarrassment (usually) and thing that seemed impossible in the past can become plausible, whether it is skill or opportunity. Change in identities is neither good or bad, but it is always an opportunity to make things good.

Unfortunately, I'm going to sperg about mental illness now. So disorders like BPD are characterized by having no solid sense of identity and always grasping at something to fill the emptiness they feel as a person. Autism has a lot of people who have low self awarness, aren't always good at reflecting on themselves, are black and ehite thinkers who put things into absolute categories by critieria (even if it's arbitrary), and don't always feel connected to their bodies. Eating Disorders always have a weird relationship with how they see their body and will try anything to get rid of or change it. Anxious people can feel a sense of disconnect from their bodies like autists, but they also have sensitivity to social awareness and will try to blend in by hopping onto trends.

I'm trying to say you're fucking right but some people will never be able to reach that realization since their brains won't let them or they refuse to change. There's a reason a lot of trans people have additional mental illnesses and disorders, and it ain't the chemicals in the water.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Not quite: submissive and docile yes, homemaker? No. Too many men who don't practice personal or household hygiene. Many can't assed to cook, and there's a startling load of married men with kids who troon out and DON'T do anything aside from tweet, wear make up, go out with the "girls", etc and shaft their partner (note, these fuckers are bad because they signed up for a partnership, not for gender roles). So I can see some expecting men to call themselves or are women just because they cook and or clean, but the reality is different.

Oh this is certainly true, although the "homemaker" status is a common idealization/expectation if you present as "fem". Those shitty femboy catboy memes on instagram always have them in a maid outfit ready to be a humble servant for their "master". I know most are sexually charged but the domestic side of it is common among femboys as well.

 

[AMHOLIO]

Oh this is certainly true, although the "homemaker" status is a common idealization/expectation if you present as "fem". Those shitty femboy catboy memes on instagram always have them in a maid outfit ready to be a humble servant for their "master". I know most are sexually charged but the domestic side of it is common among femboys as well.

It's such a shame too! Bitches LOVE a man who can keep a house clean, both straight women and gay men. Marking a guy as "fem" because he enjoys his house not looking like shit and doesn't mind putting effort in to make it nicer just shames men out of it, a loss for themselves most of all (dirty cluttered houses suck).

Same for "masc" women who like fixing things like sink pipes and car mechanics. Straight men and lesbians would be all over her.

 

[Marvin]

Gender dysphoria is absolutely a real tangible thing many children and teens suffer from and I find it ludicrous people act her was if it’s something that can be cured or even needs to be.

I think you are confusing your terminology here.

So, to start with, what is the difference between a mentally ill belief (like something caused by schizophrenia) and a religious belief?

People with religious beliefs have a strong enough grip on reality that they can hold their religious beliefs quietly and still function in society. They do not experience significant distress existing in the material reality that we all share.

People with mental illnesses cannot function in our shared reality because they have a weaker grip on reality. Their beliefs, derived from mental illness, cause such significant mental distress to them that they cannot navigate day to day life comfortably.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness like that, in the same way that body dysmorphia (anorexia and bulimia) also is.

Both gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are crippling mental illnesses and do need to be cured. They are difficult to treat, but there are therapies that exist for both of them. But due to political pressure, research into gender dysphoria therapies are suppressed.

In fact, nowadays, we're seeing what would traditionally be body dysmorphic people slipping into claiming gender dysphoric symptoms to take advantage of the political climate. Many people struggling with mental illness don't think they need help and try to dodge help. Think about anorexics secretly binging and purging. It's a real problem.

The clinical term "gender dysphoria" is pretty much the same thing, just focusing on gender issues instead of weight issues.

The thing is, gender dysphoria isn't just having funny thoughts about gender. Everyone has those. Men might want to be a little more manly, women want to be a little more girly. Many, many teenaged girls want to be less girly. It goes all over the spectrum.

But it doesn't become a mental illness ("gender dysphoria"), something that needs to be cured, until it affects their ability to function on a day-to-day basis.

Think about it, normal people get misgendered all the time. A slightly too butch woman might get called sir once in awhile, or a guy with long hair might get called ma'am from behind. But no one breaks down and causes a scene. Why? Because they can function in society.

That is not gender dysphoria.

If you can't stand being misgendered without breaking down in hysterics, then you might have gender dysphoria (or some other personality disorder), and you need treatment.

Transgenderism will always be a thing

There's not good evidence for that.

For one thing, it seems to be culture bound to our modern western culture. Doesn't seem to exist in the way we define it now in other cultures or in the past.

There's other forms of gender bending in other parts of the world, but they don't come with all the medicalized worldview behind it that "transgenderism" implies. Maybe transvestism? Sure. But not transgenderism.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

I think you are confusing your terminology here.

So, to start with, what is the difference between a mentally ill belief (like something caused by schizophrenia) and a religious belief?

People with religious beliefs have a strong enough grip on reality that they can hold their religious beliefs quietly and still function in society. They do not experience significant distress existing in the material reality that we all share.

People with mental illnesses cannot function in our shared reality because they have a weaker grip on reality. Their beliefs, derived from mental illness, cause such significant mental distress to them that they cannot navigate day to day life comfortably.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness like that, in the same way that body dysmorphia (anorexia and bulimia) also is.

Both gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are crippling mental illnesses and do need to be cured. They are difficult to treat, but there are therapies that exist for both of them. But due to political pressure, research into gender dysphoria therapies are suppressed.

In fact, nowadays, we're seeing what would traditionally be body dysmorphic people slipping into claiming gender dysphoric symptoms to take advantage of the political climate. Many people struggling with mental illness don't think they need help and try to dodge help. Think about anorexics secretly binging and purging. It's a real problem.

The clinical term "gender dysphoria" is pretty much the same thing, just focusing on gender issues instead of weight issues.

The thing is, gender dysphoria isn't just having funny thoughts about gender. Everyone has those. Men might want to be a little more manly, women want to be a little more girly. Many, many teenaged girls want to be less girly. It goes all over the spectrum.

But it doesn't become a mental illness ("gender dysphoria"), something that needs to be cured, until it affects their ability to function on a day-to-day basis.

Think about it, normal people get misgendered all the time. A slightly too butch woman might get called sir once in awhile, or a guy with long hair might get called ma'am from behind. But no one breaks down and causes a scene. Why? Because they can function in society.

That is not gender dysphoria.

If you can't stand being misgendered without breaking down in hysterics, then you might have gender dysphoria (or some other personality disorder), and you need treatment.

There's not good evidence for that.

For one thing, it seems to be culture bound to our modern western culture. Doesn't seem to exist in the way we define it now in other cultures or in the past.

There's other forms of gender bending in other parts of the world, but they don't come with all the medicalized worldview behind it that "transgenderism" implies. Maybe transvestism? Sure. But not transgenderism.

Trans people are nothing new.

 

[Marvin]

Trans people are nothing new.

In our current understanding of the concept? They absolutely are.

Cross dressing, third gender roles, and similar concepts have always existed. (usually in conservative, homophobic cultures)

But transgenderism breaks new ground historically in how literal the belief is. That's pretty unprecedented.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

In our current understanding of the concept? They absolutely are.

Cross dressing, third gender roles, and similar concepts have always existed. (usually in conservative, homophobic cultures)

But transgenderism breaks new ground historically in how literal the belief is. That's pretty unprecedented.

The only real difference between then and now is now transgendered people try to portray all this as innate and biological. And that's not just trans people, all across the board our society is obsessed with materialism (in the classic sense) and thinks that an idea, concept, or lifestyle is only legitimate if at some point somebody was able to shove it into a testtube. You see this everywhere. Powerlevel time (it's always time dammit!) I was at one point hoping to get a PHD in political science. I stopped when I realized the science took over the political and now all those motherfuckers do is make simple shit complicated using math and then be wrong anyway. And I suck at math.

We broke a taboo about what was acceptable in public. That's all we did. Across all time and space people have always been the same. I remember reading a journal entry by some puritan guy in the 1600's who was agonizing about how his daughter was up all night crying because she got stood up by some dickhead on the other side of town and he didn't know what to say to her.

Nothing actually changes, it just get a different aesthetic.

It's a shame this isn't taught more. It's not a bad thing to want an identity and to belong, but having all your personality tied up to a movement or identity tends to either stagnate your growth or make you unhappy as a person as you don't feel allowed to change. Rolling through groups and movements is fine. The actions you choose now aren't going to permanently stain your hands in social embarrassment (usually) and thing that seemed impossible in the past can become plausible, whether it is skill or opportunity. Change in identities is neither good or bad, but it is always an opportunity to make things good.

I think my only real issue is that we're putting people into an increasingly massive set of boxes and filling their heads with more and more ideas about what they're "supposed" to be rather then encouraging them to be open to experiences in general. I saw a thread on reddit (always reddit, it really is hell on earth) where an 18 year old girl was upset because she had sex with a guy and loved it. At the risk of spending too much time extolling on a teenagers fucking sex life, she offered the information herself. She LOVED that experience to the point she kept pointing it out, but she also hated herself for it because quote "I've been identifying as a lesbian for years". Note: "years" to an 18 year old is like, 2020. Second, what the actual fuck? You're mad at yourself because you still want to be a lesbian? Christ talk about roll reversal, most queers spend their youth doing the opposite. Never mind that, you go on LGBT reddit these days and virtually all of it is teenagers asking "what's my pronoun?" and shit like that or demanding "the community", whatever that is, bestow some sort of esoteric label on them.

Then of course because life is life you end up like our poor OP, some boy in marching band dicks you so good you apparently experience ego death, and you end up with one identity crisis after another.

People evolve over time, and that's okay. I'm much more of a raging faggot than I was 5 years ago.

Like c'mon, what is this shit? What are we actually teaching people here? That it's okay to be themselves or that it's only okay if your "self" remains exactly the same, always, with no deviation? You can only be yourself if you never once try anything new or form a new opinion?

The sad thing is I actually do think most men can stand to be more traditionally feminine. Except instead of saying you can be a man while still being open with your emotions, allowing yourself to feel things for others, and just generally being more gentle towards the world, now we're literally telling them that only gay people and transgendered people do that shit. We're not opening up our definition of masculinity we're putting chains around the box and telling boys the only way out of our insane toxic ideas about what men should be is to become women. That's insane and it's definitely not helping the suicide rate.

 

[Ser Prize]

Surgery isn't a cure for a mental illness.

I've said it before and I'll say it now: the best comparison is giving an anorexic person liposuction.

 

[thegooddoctor]

I think you are confusing your terminology here.

So, to start with, what is the difference between a mentally ill belief (like something caused by schizophrenia) and a religious belief?

People with religious beliefs have a strong enough grip on reality that they can hold their religious beliefs quietly and still function in society. They do not experience significant distress existing in the material reality that we all share.

People with mental illnesses cannot function in our shared reality because they have a weaker grip on reality. Their beliefs, derived from mental illness, cause such significant mental distress to them that they cannot navigate day to day life comfortably.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness like that, in the same way that body dysmorphia (anorexia and bulimia) also is.

Both gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are crippling mental illnesses and do need to be cured. They are difficult to treat, but there are therapies that exist for both of them. But due to political pressure, research into gender dysphoria therapies are suppressed.

In fact, nowadays, we're seeing what would traditionally be body dysmorphic people slipping into claiming gender dysphoric symptoms to take advantage of the political climate. Many people struggling with mental illness don't think they need help and try to dodge help. Think about anorexics secretly binging and purging. It's a real problem.

The clinical term "gender dysphoria" is pretty much the same thing, just focusing on gender issues instead of weight issues.

The thing is, gender dysphoria isn't just having funny thoughts about gender. Everyone has those. Men might want to be a little more manly, women want to be a little more girly. Many, many teenaged girls want to be less girly. It goes all over the spectrum.

But it doesn't become a mental illness ("gender dysphoria"), something that needs to be cured, until it affects their ability to function on a day-to-day basis.

Think about it, normal people get misgendered all the time. A slightly too butch woman might get called sir once in awhile, or a guy with long hair might get called ma'am from behind. But no one breaks down and causes a scene. Why? Because they can function in society.

That is not gender dysphoria.

If you can't stand being misgendered without breaking down in hysterics, then you might have gender dysphoria (or some other personality disorder), and you need treatment.

There's not good evidence for that.

For one thing, it seems to be culture bound to our modern western culture. Doesn't seem to exist in the way we define it now in other cultures or in the past.

There's other forms of gender bending in other parts of the world, but they don't come with all the medicalized worldview behind it that "transgenderism" implies. Maybe transvestism? Sure. But not transgenderism.

Marvin I’m sorry but I simply do not agree that all of those that have dysphoria have something of a mental illness, absolutely not the same thing, there is someone I even know who Is trans/non binary a woman who wants to be a male, and she/he is a perfectly legitimate and non mentally ill person. There are people, some kids and teens who just don’t feel right in their own bodies who want to transition and like I’ve mentioned before hope people will accept them as they slowly begin to transition. Very corny I understand, but they not mentally ill, they have legitimate body issues and don’t and will not grow up to be Screeching SJW transexual deviants and psychopaths who have ruined the image of the LGBT Community. They really are just innocent victims of circumstance, just want to transition quietly and I wish more people acknowledged that younger people suffer from this.

Point being when you refer to all of them as ‘mentally ill sociopaths with cum for brains’ you forget there are children as young as twelve who start to feel gender dysphoria, it comes across as cruel and ignorant when there are younger people involved. It makes you look less like someone with a controversial yet understandable view on a hot issue to just a full blown asshole shitting on the weak. That’s going too far.