🐱 You Cannot Reason With Right-Wing

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There are many explanations on offer for the bitter, “uncivil war” tone of contemporary politics and government, and at least some share of blame to go around. But I’m not going to indulge in false equivalence here: The radicalization of the Republican Party and its dominant conservative ideological faction has been — and for the foreseeable future will continue to be — the prime engine of polarization and gridlock. I’ve felt that way since the George W. Bush administration, and it’s a big reason why a card-carrying centrist like me has abandoned all hope of bipartisan “problem-solving.” Nine years ago President Obama confidently predicted the GOP “fever” would “break” if he won reelection. Clearly the “fever” is running higher than ever in the Trump era, with no particular end in sight.
Understanding that differences between left and right aren’t just a matter of reasonable differences of opinion on legitimately disputed facts is the first step towards comprehending the current political environment. The fact that conservatives have a tendency to subscribe to conspiracy theories or dismiss inconvenient facts is not an absolute bar to debate. But as Greg Sargent pointed outrecently, MAGA ultras exhibit a more systematic rejection of verifiable reality in favor of ideological systems that interpret (or reinterpret) everythingaccording to an antagonistic depiction of the left as virtually demonic:
Political theorist Laura K. Field has a new essay that helps us make sense of this. Field’s key distinction is between conspiracy theories, which make purportedly grounded claims of some kind, and conspiracism, which is more a habit of mind, a tendency to unshackle oneself in a way that permits a kind of open-ended indulgence in fabulism….
In too many cases, Field argues, empiricism is entirely absent. This tendency sometimes attacks the political legitimacy of the entire left by conflating liberals and Marxists into one monolithically tyrannical political force. Or it attacks the legitimacy of institutions which have fallen under the left’s cultural spell (such as the media or “woke” corporations, never mind the latter’s pursuit of a distributive agenda the left hates). Or it attacks the political system itself (which the left has manipulated, rendering elections illegitimate).
To this way of thinking, the opposition, which is imagined to include the entire political media universe (except for a few trusted “red-pilling” outlets), nearly all of academia, and since January 20 the executive and legislative branches of the federal government (in alliance with liberal state and local governments) is so drenched in malice and insincerity that its dismissal of lurid conspiracy theories is proof of their truthfulness. There is no easy way out of this loop of self-validating belief and disbelief, mostly driven by fear and fury. And it’s not just a matter of white (or white male) insecurity about endangered status, as some observers condescendingly suggest: There is a moral content to the fear and fury alike.
As Thomas Edsall noted in a review of academic research on Trumpism, MAGA folk tend to think of the opposition’s constituencies not simply as hostile or alien, but undeserving of either status or respect. Scottish social scientists Stephen Reicher and Yasemin Ulusahin, says Edsall, argue that white conservatives mourn “actual or potential loss of dominance, [and] a sense of resentment at this loss which is bound up with issues of entitlement — the undeserving are taking what we deserve — and hence provides a moral dimension to restitutive actions, and finally the prospect of redemption — of restoring the rightful order of things — through action.”
These feelings of “undeserved” displacement “are not unmediated perceptions of reality. Rather, they are narratives offered by leaders with the aim of mobilizing people around the leader as representative and savior of the group.”
Enter Donald Trump and his angry political allies, who have an explanation that may defy common sense, but possesses uncommon power. And it plays into a very old right-wing perspective on modern life in which those people — the young, the immigrants, and minorities generally — are in alliance with leftist elites rooted in academia and the media who seek total power by replacing the old dominant classes of hard-working Americans with parasites who feed on their labor and wealth. I first encountered this nightmare vision of the overclass-underclass alliance in Robert Nisbet’s 1975 book The Twilight of Authority. But this basic paranoid view has been central to generations of “producerist” attacks on intellectual and financial elites thought to be exploiting ignorant proles to displace traditional cultural institutions and folk (or in its deadly German version, volkisch) virtues.
Not everyone who likes Donald J. Trump, of course, is subject to this sort of wild projection of hatefulness onto the opposition. And despite their cowardice in the face of Trump’s conquest of the GOP and the conservative movement, many conservative Republicans can be reasoned with and aren’t inclined to send the rest of us off to reeducation camps. Indeed, many of them would rather break bread with liberal “elitists” than with Marjorie Taylor Greene or Josh Hawley. But as Jonathan Chait pointed out back in 2015, the American conservative movement and the party is has long since controlled were fertile ground for fabulists:
The first moment when conservatives seized actual control of the party came, of course, in 1964 through the Goldwater movement. The Goldwater activists were driven by conspiratorial thinking. The campaign’s main tract, “A Choice Not an Echo,” written by Phyllis Schlafly, argued that the party could never lose if it campaigned wholeheartedly on conservative issues, but it had been betrayed by “a small group of secret kingmakers, using hidden persuaders and psychological warfare techniques, manipulated the Republican National Convention to nominate candidates who would sidestep or suppress the key issues.” Another key tract, “None Dare Call It Treason,” by John Stormer, alleged “a conspiratorial plan to destroy the United States into which foreign aid, planned inflation, distortion of treaty-making powers and disarmament all fit.” It sold 7 million copies and was distributed widely by Goldwater volunteers.
This apocalyptic strain has regularly infused conservative rhetoric.
And now it’s fully blooming, as even regular Republican pols regularly fulminate about socialist plots to “cancel” all conservatives, destroy all religion, seize all firearms, and in the meantime open up the borders to let more of those peoplecome in so that the real American majority can be overwhelmed and subdued. This is a fever that is showing no signs of “breaking.” And there’s no known vaccine.
You Cannot Reason With the GOP’s Conspiracists
 


There are many explanations on offer for the bitter, “uncivil war” tone of contemporary politics and government, and at least some share of blame to go around. But I’m not going to indulge in false equivalence here: The radicalization of the Republican Party and its dominant conservative ideological faction has been — and for the foreseeable future will continue to be — the prime engine of polarization and gridlock. I’ve felt that way since the George W. Bush administration, and it’s a big reason why a card-carrying centrist like me has abandoned all hope of bipartisan “problem-solving.” Nine years ago President Obama confidently predicted the GOP “fever” would “break” if he won reelection. Clearly the “fever” is running higher than ever in the Trump era, with no particular end in sight.
Understanding that differences between left and right aren’t just a matter of reasonable differences of opinion on legitimately disputed facts is the first step towards comprehending the current political environment. The fact that conservatives have a tendency to subscribe to conspiracy theories or dismiss inconvenient facts is not an absolute bar to debate. But as Greg Sargent pointed outrecently, MAGA ultras exhibit a more systematic rejection of verifiable reality in favor of ideological systems that interpret (or reinterpret) everythingaccording to an antagonistic depiction of the left as virtually demonic:

To this way of thinking, the opposition, which is imagined to include the entire political media universe (except for a few trusted “red-pilling” outlets), nearly all of academia, and since January 20 the executive and legislative branches of the federal government (in alliance with liberal state and local governments) is so drenched in malice and insincerity that its dismissal of lurid conspiracy theories is proof of their truthfulness. There is no easy way out of this loop of self-validating belief and disbelief, mostly driven by fear and fury. And it’s not just a matter of white (or white male) insecurity about endangered status, as some observers condescendingly suggest: There is a moral content to the fear and fury alike.
As Thomas Edsall noted in a review of academic research on Trumpism, MAGA folk tend to think of the opposition’s constituencies not simply as hostile or alien, but undeserving of either status or respect. Scottish social scientists Stephen Reicher and Yasemin Ulusahin, says Edsall, argue that white conservatives mourn “actual or potential loss of dominance, [and] a sense of resentment at this loss which is bound up with issues of entitlement — the undeserving are taking what we deserve — and hence provides a moral dimension to restitutive actions, and finally the prospect of redemption — of restoring the rightful order of things — through action.”

Enter Donald Trump and his angry political allies, who have an explanation that may defy common sense, but possesses uncommon power. And it plays into a very old right-wing perspective on modern life in which those people — the young, the immigrants, and minorities generally — are in alliance with leftist elites rooted in academia and the media who seek total power by replacing the old dominant classes of hard-working Americans with parasites who feed on their labor and wealth. I first encountered this nightmare vision of the overclass-underclass alliance in Robert Nisbet’s 1975 book The Twilight of Authority. But this basic paranoid view has been central to generations of “producerist” attacks on intellectual and financial elites thought to be exploiting ignorant proles to displace traditional cultural institutions and folk (or in its deadly German version, volkisch) virtues.
Not everyone who likes Donald J. Trump, of course, is subject to this sort of wild projection of hatefulness onto the opposition. And despite their cowardice in the face of Trump’s conquest of the GOP and the conservative movement, many conservative Republicans can be reasoned with and aren’t inclined to send the rest of us off to reeducation camps. Indeed, many of them would rather break bread with liberal “elitists” than with Marjorie Taylor Greene or Josh Hawley. But as Jonathan Chait pointed out back in 2015, the American conservative movement and the party is has long since controlled were fertile ground for fabulists:

And now it’s fully blooming, as even regular Republican pols regularly fulminate about socialist plots to “cancel” all conservatives, destroy all religion, seize all firearms, and in the meantime open up the borders to let more of those peoplecome in so that the real American majority can be overwhelmed and subdued. This is a fever that is showing no signs of “breaking.” And there’s no known vaccine.
You Cannot Reason With the GOP’s Conspiracists
I have just watched a video by Gothix, in it she cites a study that shows right-wing people use the rational part of their brain when making decisions.

Also, there is a study that left-wing people are more likely to suffer from poor mental health issues (too much wanking to kiddie rape vids and pills, I guess).

perhaps the op means 'why can't unreasonable people reason with reasonable people?' But that kinda answers itself.

I was recently debating a leftie feminist (perhaps a tautology) and asked her about the parts of marxism she appreciate d, considering it's been debunked.

nearly 3 days later... No reply. She must be having a breakdown of something.
 
It's arrogant and disingenuous to go into any discussion with the intention of "reasoning" with people. It shows that you have no intention of listening to a different opinion and only contributes to the sorry state that US politics is in.
 
It's arrogant and disingenuous to go into any discussion with the intention of "reasoning" with people. It shows that you have no intention of listening to a different opinion and only contributes to the sorry state that US politics is in.
Yes. "Reasoning" is nothing but an euphemism for "if you listen to my enlightened arguments, you're gonna do as I want and if you don't, it's because you're stupid".
 
Yes. "Reasoning" is nothing but an euphemism for "if you listen to my enlightened arguments, you're gonna do as I want and if you don't, it's because you're stupid".
And "compromise" is libspeak for "give us what we want, and in return you get nothing".
 
You know, I started getting really into listening to conspiracy theorists back in '13, '14, thereabouts. Partly for giggles, partly out of curiosity, mostly just for rubbernecking - same reasons I follow lolcows, weird fetish communities, and internet drama, really.

I remember one of the first conspiracy theory podcasts that really stood out to me; it was some series on the CIA influence on Hollywood, and all the movie/shows that were coming out around that time, like The Purge and the Walking Dead. I remember the hosts saying "this is part of a psyop, they're pushing division, all the messages they've inserted into popular culture are about civil war, hating your neighbour, purge night, zombies, fear" and they wrapped up their episode by shouting "they want a Civil War, they want you fighting each other, it's gonna happen unless you wake up!"

At the time, I thought they were fucking crazy. Life is good! America is a tolerant, educated, liberal democracy. Society isn't going to fall apart. Nobody's going to go fuckin' nuts.


I'm really sorry we're living through this intellectual shithole right now, friends. I love all of you. Even the commies.
 
You know, I started getting really into listening to conspiracy theorists back in '13, '14, thereabouts. Partly for giggles, partly out of curiosity, mostly just for rubbernecking - same reasons I follow lolcows, weird fetish communities, and internet drama, really.

I remember one of the first conspiracy theory podcasts that really stood out to me; it was some series on the CIA influence on Hollywood, and all the movie/shows that were coming out around that time, like The Purge and the Walking Dead. I remember the hosts saying "this is part of a psyop, they're pushing division, all the messages they've inserted into popular culture are about civil war, hating your neighbour, purge night, zombies, fear" and they wrapped up their episode by shouting "they want a Civil War, they want you fighting each other, it's gonna happen unless you wake up!"

At the time, I thought they were fucking crazy. Life is good! America is a tolerant, educated, liberal democracy. Society isn't going to fall apart. Nobody's going to go fuckin' nuts.


I'm really sorry we're living through this intellectual shithole right now, friends. I love all of you. Even the commies.
It's weird that intelligence agencies manipulating media is somehow a conspiracy. The FBI has an entire department that makes sure every show with the feds in it portrays them in a positive light. The air force did it with stargate too. It's often part of the cost of having advisors and shit coming to help in production.
Of course those agencies manipulate Hollywood, even if they aren't the only ones doing it.
 
Oh Jesus, the amount of centrism in this article is off the charts. My brain started melting from the heat of the takes before I could even make it to the first quoted section.
"Comrade, I am writing article for American press; tell me, if I was member of American Centrist Party, how do I let people know? Would I carry card?"

"Da, of course you carry card. Without card, how would you get past Centrist Party checkpoints?"
 
Chances that the author of this article still believes that police officers were getting beat to death with fire extinguishes on Jan 6th?
 
a big reason why a card-carrying centrist like me
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This frog-faced fuck...
In too many cases, Field argues, empiricism is entirely absent. This tendency sometimes attacks the political legitimacy of the entire left by conflating liberals and Marxists into one monolithically tyrannical political force.
Liberals have been running cover for communards/communists since the French revolution in the name of 'MUH PRINCIPLES.' Communards/communists reward 'MUH PRINCIPLES' by torturing and murdering liberals, either first, or after the liberals have assisted in the destruction of conservatives, nationalists, and/or insufficiently radical socialists.

Useful idiots are more dangerous than the vermin they defend.
To this way of thinking, the opposition, which is imagined to include the entire political media universe (except for a few trusted “red-pilling” outlets), nearly all of academia, and since January 20 the executive and legislative branches of the federal government (in alliance with liberal state and local governments) is so drenched in malice and insincerity that its dismissal of lurid conspiracy theories is proof of their truthfulness.
Yep, sort of like how the Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Northwoods, COINTELPRO, MK-ULTRA, and the PRISM Program were all dismissed as 'lurid conspiracy theories' by our all-loving, always-truthful government.

When dealing with the government and its agents, always assume for some form of self-preservation, self-dealing, obfuscation, or yes, plain old malice.
 
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Wait, this is coming from the political side that claims you can be a woman just be feeling like a woman? Ok. The side that claims that racism only goes one way cause power and privilege? Ok. The side that is quickly to disregard any sort of statistics because 'opression'? Ok. Ok. Good to know.
 
Political theorist Laura K. Field has a new essay that helps us make sense of this. Field’s key distinction is between conspiracy theories, which make purportedly grounded claims of some kind, and conspiracism, which is more a habit of mind, a tendency to unshackle oneself in a way that permits a kind of open-ended indulgence in fabulism….
In too many cases, Field argues, empiricism is entirely absent. This tendency sometimes attacks the political legitimacy of the entire left by conflating liberals and Marxists into one monolithically tyrannical political force. Or it attacks the legitimacy of institutions which have fallen under the left’s cultural spell (such as the media or “woke” corporations, never mind the latter’s pursuit of a distributive agenda the left hates). Or it attacks the political system itself (which the left has manipulated, rendering elections illegitimate).
20 bucks says she is a legit Marxist.
 
Donald Trump will never die.
He will live on in Soy minds for generations to come.
It’s Gamergate 2.0. They absolutely cannot accept that they lost, ever. They all grew up getting everything they wanted handed to them, so being told “no” for the first time is such an existential crisis that they turn into 3 year olds throwing a tantrum in the grocery store.
 
🤡 "I want to take all your money and give it to criminals and junkies. Your children will be taken from you to be raped and mutilated. Everything you have built and care for must be destroyed and denigrated. These are the things I want to do, will you consent?"
👨‍💼"No. I don't want you to do that to any degree."
🤡 "Aww, come on! We can compromise! How about I take half your money and rape just one of your kids. Sounds fair, right?"
👨‍💼"My final answer is no."
🤡 "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO UNREASONABLE?!?!?"
 
Man, Phyllis Schlafly must have been an amazing woman, if she chaps their assholes this much.
My mom was one of the early rabid second wave feminists in the 50s and 60s. There are only two women she has an undying and absolute malicious hatred for (unlike men, which she has for all of us): Phyllis Schafly and Margaret Thatcher.
 
🤡 "I want to take all your money and give it to criminals and junkies. Your children will be taken from you to be raped and mutilated. Everything you have built and care for must be destroyed and denigrated. These are the things I want to do, will you consent?"
👨‍💼"No. I don't want you to do that to any degree."
🤡 "Aww, come on! We can compromise! How about I take half your money and rape just one of your kids. Sounds fair, right?"
👨‍💼"My final answer is no."
🤡 "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO UNREASONABLE?!?!?"
I noticed the OP does not respond to any of his/its own threads whatsoever.

This is exaclty what is wrong with the left.. no exaggration. they demand ilterally insane policies... like allowing children to be mutlated.. we point out that is mutilation and child abuse with medical evidence.. they cry "You're being unreasonable!.. (or transphobic, racist, bigoted...) They should just call us heritics and try to burn us at the stake...Oh wait, I'm sure they're going to try
 
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