🐱 Whataboutism, the last refuge for Republicans

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CatParty



Over a year ago, and in violation of my own good advice, I got caught up in a Facebook argument with a Republican relative about Donald Trump. I don't remember what the topic was, and it hardly matters now, since the past four years was just a constant churn of Trump doing terrible stuff and his defensive voters constantly grasping for dumb excuses for why the terrible stuff wasn't actually all that terrible. What I do remember, however, is that, at one point, I linked the Washington Post's daily counter of Trump false statements — he was up to over a dozen a day by then — and demanded an explanation of why she would support such a liar. (I am not proud of myself, as noted.) She retorted with something along the lines of, "Oh, like Elizabeth Warren has never told a lie!"
Now, Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., is an honest politician and well-rated by PolitiFact. But all politicians have succumbed to the urge to massage the truth a time or two, and certainly I couldn't prove on the spot that Warren had a spotless record. But what was really preposterous was my relative's underlying assumption: if Warren had ever fudged the truth, then all criticism of Trump was rendered null and void.
It's this tendency to compare two unequal things that provided Trump and his supporters a blank check to have no standards at all, because, after all, the other side was hardly perfect. It's Whataboutism, the common term for a version of the tu quoque fallacy. RationalWiki explains that whataboutism is "a diversionary tactic to shift the focus off of an issue and avoid having to directly address it" by "twisting criticism back onto the critic and in doing so revealing the original critic's hypocrisy."


As my interchange with my relative shows, in conservative hands, whataboutism often results in a comparison of egregious sins of the right to slight or even imaginary ones on the left. The purpose isn't even really to establish hypocrisy, since it's usually comparing apples to oranges. The purpose is pure deflection. It doesn't even have to make sense.

Sarah Longwell, a Republican political strategist who now publishes the never-Trump website The Bulwark, has been doing a series of focus groups on Republican voters. She spoke with Peter Wehner of The Atlantic, and flagged this increasing conservative addiction to whataboutism.

If compelling evidence is presented to MAGA supporters that what they're being told by Greene or others is a lie, they don't engage directly with the evidence. According to Longwell, "They say, 'What about Ilhan Omar?' They say, 'What about [Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]?'" As Longwell puts it, "They've got these things down, which is 'Whatever you just showed me about Marjorie Taylor Greene is irrelevant because Ilhan Omar, because AOC, and I know lots about that, and I can tell you all about it.'" Some focus-group participants report that they like how Greene "speaks her mind."
As with my relative's false Warren vs. Trump gambit, a notable factor here is how the whataboutism is comparing apples to oranges.

Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., are nothing like Rep. Marjorie Taylor-Greene, R-Ga. They aren't conspiracy theorists, racists, or trolls who stop congressional business for no good reason. This isn't just a logical fallacy, but it's a half-baked one that falls apart under even the slightest scrutiny. But the point of it isn't to make sense, but to fill the discourse with noise, so that they don't have to answer for — or even think about — the deep immorality of supporting Taylor Greene.

Once you are tuned into it, the reliance on whataboutism by conservatives — especially right-wing pundits — is evident everywhere. Just this week, I collected a number of examples.

On Fox News, Juan Williams called out the network for spreading false stories about President Joe Biden rationing beef and Vice President Kamala Harris "pushing" her book on migrant children. Co-host Greg Gutfeld immediately retorted by whining, "Well I guess they learned from the best," and referencing the Steele dossier. Of course, these aren't equivalent. Christopher Steele's dossier was never presented by the media as anything but what it was, which is a series of allegations that ranged in their level of adequate sourcing. The beef ration and Harris book stories, however, were pure misinformation.

On "The View", Meghan McCain pulled a similar trick when trying to defend Fox News for spreading fake stories, trying to change the subject to "liberal media which runs all of media, all of tech, all of entertainment, all of music, all of politics, all three branches of government." Not only was her claim a lie, but it was also nonsensical. Why should liberals having power in the media justify conservatives spreading obvious disinformation?

Or check out this story from The Daily Beast, where reporters Asawin Suebsaeng and Adam Rawnsley detailed how "the former president and his Republican allies are coalescing around a new argument to fend off allegations that Trump incited the bloody Jan. 6 riot: Maxine Waters did it, too."

Again, that's a lie.

Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., told Minnesota protesters to get "confrontational," but in a context that clearly indicated a desire for said confrontation to stay peaceful. The result was that the people she was speaking to stayed peaceful, as the vast majority of Black Lives Matter protesters have done for the past year now. Trump, however, spent months riling his followers up, gave a speech saying, "You'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength," and then sent them to the Capitol. And we know they got the message because of what they did when they got there.

Thursday night, Tucker Carlson of Fox News was so aggrieved at Biden for denouncing this insurrection, that Carlson leaned hard into the most non sequitur version of whataboutism.

"Really? The worst attack on our democracy in 160 years? How about the Immigration Act of 1965?" Carlson complained.

White nationalists hate the 1965 bill because it basically banned racial discrimination in immigration. Even by Carlson's low standards of what constitutes logic, arguing that being anti-racist is less democratic than trying to overthrow a free and fair election is a joke.

Perhaps the most dangerous way that the right-wing addiction to whataboutism manifests is in the way it's employed after every story about cops killing Black people in incidents that should not have been deadly. Inevitably, right-wing media will settle on pointing the finger at the victim for being "no angel." Apologists for Derek Chauvin in the murder of George Floyd loved to harp on how Floyd had drugs in his system at the time.

This argument, of course, makes no sense.

The right not to be killed by police should not depend on a person having a spotless history. The percentage of Americans who can honestly say they've never broken a law or done a bad thing lingers around zero. Being imperfect shouldn't be a blank check for cops to kill you. But whataboutism, of course, always embeds this double standard: People outside of the right-wing tribe are expected to be perfect, and if they are not, it's blanket permission for people inside the right-wing tribe to do whatever they want, no matter how terrible.

The reason that whataboutism is increasingly popular on the right is obvious: They know they can't defend either their behavior or their ideas, so they are laser-focused on deflection.

Whataboutism is crude and relies on false equivalences or outright lies. Still, it often works, either by tricking liberals into changing the subject or by giving conservatives a thing they can say, no matter how nonsensical, that staves off the demons of self-interrogation. As with other shady rhetoric the right is using to avoid talking about real issues, we can expect to see more of this, as they get more desperate in the face of their own failures.
 
TL;DR - How dare you hold us to the same standards as we hold you!

I genuine don't think I've ever heard of anyone complaining about "whataboutism" that wasn't a massive hypocrite.
 
Using 'whataboutism' as a criticism is a lame ass deflection tactic. If the people you're standing up for engage in the exact same tactics as your political enemies that you're attempting to criticize for that behavior, your argument falls flat. Simple as
 
Using 'whataboutism' as a criticism is a lame ass deflection tactic. If the people you're standing up for engage in the exact same tactics as your political enemies that you're attempting to criticize for that behavior, your argument falls flat. Simple as
Dude, the problem is they don't give a shit if you call them hypocrites, whether you're right or not. They are coming from a position of "I can do whatever I fucking want, you are only allowed to do what I say you can, end of", and they've got a ton of people surrounding them that completely agree with this. They have mentally separated themselves from you like a Hindu Brahmin separating themselves from someone they view as an Untouchable. You can't win by pointing out they're not even playing by their own rules, because you're in no position to tell them how they follow their rules from their perspective.

There can be no hope of discourse with these people. They do not want to talk to you, they want to talk at you, command you like a dog.
 
Whaddabout stepping away from the keyboard and doing something else catparty?

The example of Biden saying something as fucking stupid as 6th Jan being the worst attack on democracy since the civil the war deserves to be called into question.

Whaddabout Warren lying about her NA heritage to get special treatment to get access to education she didn't deserve. You see how that works.

Anyway, you're probably already on to the next puff op-ed piece, so post away. Is it going to be from Owen Jones?
 
Dude, the problem is they don't give a shit if you call them hypocrites, whether you're right or not. They are coming from a position of "I can do whatever I fucking want, you are only allowed to do what I say you can, end of", and they've got a ton of people surrounding them that completely agree with this. They have mentally separated themselves from you like a Hindu Brahmin separating themselves from someone they view as an Untouchable. You can't win by pointing out they're not even playing by their own rules, because you're in no position to tell them how they follow their rules from their perspective.

There can be no hope of discourse with these people. They do not want to talk to you, they want to talk at you, command you like a dog.
"It's okay when we do it" and "the ends justify the means" are the Democrats' First and Second Commandments.
RationalWiki
Imagine citing a Wiki as if it were a credible source, let alone one that was created because people were assmad about the existence of Conservapedia.
 
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Establishment Republicans not cucking to the New York Times and Washington Post will be the day there will be serious progress and pushback.
 
Christ, they (still) think about Trump just as much as they think about Harry Potter
 
Reminds me I had a libtard unironically link politifact as proof of something the other day. Good lawdy miss shawdy

clownworld provides
 
When you can't win an argument on its merits, change the rules until you win by default.
 
The same people who use whataboutism to silence you get unbelievably peeved if you ever use it to shut down their precious commie speech. Automatic kickban, etc
 
Dude, the problem is they don't give a shit if you call them hypocrites, whether you're right or not. They are coming from a position of "I can do whatever I fucking want, you are only allowed to do what I say you can, end of", and they've got a ton of people surrounding them that completely agree with this. They have mentally separated themselves from you like a Hindu Brahmin separating themselves from someone they view as an Untouchable. You can't win by pointing out they're not even playing by their own rules, because you're in no position to tell them how they follow their rules from their perspective.

There can be no hope of discourse with these people. They do not want to talk to you, they want to talk at you, command you like a dog.
Totally correct. These people fucking hate us, have no interest in civilized discourse and the only rational response is to start hating them back. Arguments are only useful to them insofar as it helps them control others, not as a means of getting at the truth, they are completely nihilistic. As long as we interact with them in good faith we will always lose and they will keep encroaching. People need to stop listening to their words and start looking at what they're doing instead, and start hating them back.
 
Totally correct. These people fucking hate us, have no interest in civilized discourse and the only rational response is to start hating them back. Arguments are only useful to them insofar as it helps them control others, not as a means of getting at the truth, they are completely nihilistic. As long as we interact with them in good faith we will always lose and they will keep encroaching. People need to stop listening to their words and start looking at what they're doing instead, and start hating them back.
They hate absolutely everyone and everything that does not parrot their own words back at them. Think of it this way: they think they are your parents, and you are an unruly ward. They tell you that you need to do *thing* as if you were a child, and when you (to them, inexplicably) tell them politely or otherwise to go fuck themselves they get pissed. How dare you talk back? How dare you talk back to your better?
 
"whataboutism" aka asking for consistency and not being a hypocrite.

Dude, the problem is they don't give a shit if you call them hypocrites, whether you're right or not. They are coming from a position of "I can do whatever I fucking want, you are only allowed to do what I say you can, end of", and they've got a ton of people surrounding them that completely agree with this. They have mentally separated themselves from you like a Hindu Brahmin separating themselves from someone they view as an Untouchable. You can't win by pointing out they're not even playing by their own rules, because you're in no position to tell them how they follow their rules from their perspective.

There can be no hope of discourse with these people. They do not want to talk to you, they want to talk at you, command you like a dog.
I've said this before myself, there's literally no winning an argument with these people because they're the good guy and you're the bad guy, therefore no matter you say or do or what they say or do, you are always the bad guy, they are always the good guy.

It's pure narcissism and sociopathy.
 
Dude, the problem is they don't give a shit if you call them hypocrites, whether you're right or not. They are coming from a position of "I can do whatever I fucking want, you are only allowed to do what I say you can, end of", and they've got a ton of people surrounding them that completely agree with this. They have mentally separated themselves from you like a Hindu Brahmin separating themselves from someone they view as an Untouchable. You can't win by pointing out they're not even playing by their own rules, because you're in no position to tell them how they follow their rules from their perspective.

There can be no hope of discourse with these people. They do not want to talk to you, they want to talk at you, command you like a dog.
It's a tactic that Saul Alinsky devised in his Rules For Radicals. Basically it is to hold your opponents to their own standards while openly flouting said standards themselves--basically always act in bad faith. That is why I use insane troll logic with a heaping of insults and condescension on the rare times I engage with him because I feel no need to respect them or their opinions. The only thing you can really do to them is frustrate them as much as humanly possible.
 
Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., told Minnesota protesters to get "confrontational," but in a context that clearly indicated a desire for said confrontation to stay peaceful.

We need to let them know we mean business.

Mostly peaceful.

This bullshit is tiresome. The media just spent months blaming every republican who ever uttered the word fight for The Capitol Insurrection but when Maxine Waters calls for violence and gets it...well gosh it was just hyperbole guys!

People need to get more confrontational with Salon.com employees. I clearly mean that should be peaceful.

Maxine has a bit of a habit of inciting violence:

"Let them know they are not welcome anywhere...anymore"

What does that mean Maxine? If they are not welcome anywhere anymore where do they go? Kind of sounds like a career grifter encouraging murder to me but what do I know...
 
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