WE ARE REPAGANIZING

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by Louise Perry October 2023 Article Archive

There’s a very short and very brutal poem by the Scottish poet Hollie McNish, written in 2019 and titled “Conversation with an archaeologist”:

he said they’d found a brothel
on the dig he did last night
I asked him how they know
he sighed:
a pit of babies’ bones
a pit of newborn babies’ bones was how to spot a brothel

“It’s true, you know,” said the writer and lawyer Helen Dale when we had lunch in London last year and I mentioned this poem, which I chose as one of the epigraphs to my book The Case Against the Sexual Revolution. Helen was a classicist before she was a lawyer, and as a younger woman she had taken part in archaeological excavations of ancient Roman sites. “First you find the erotic statuary,” she went on, “and then you dig a bit more and you find the male infant skeletons.” Male, of course, because the males were of no use to the keepers of Roman brothels, whereas the female infants born to prostituted women were raised into prostitution themselves.

I realize that this is not a nice thing to think about. Personally, I find that if I let my mind rest for more than a moment on these tiny extinguished lives, and on the cruelty of the society that regarded their suffering as an acceptable consequence of the need to satiate male lust, I experience a painful, squeezing, swooping sensation in my chest that I’ve discovered only since I became a mother myself—an involuntary physical response that I felt for the first time during my third trimester when I read an article on abortion that included a graphic description of what the procedure actually involves. I recalled that moment as I spoke to Helen, and it occurred to me that I had no idea what modern abortion clinics do with fetal remains. The answer, I’ve since discovered, is that the remains are usually burned, along with other “clinical waste.” There will be no infant skeletons for archaeologists of the future to find.

To mention abortion and infanticide in the same breath is a provocation. A majority of voters in Britain and America regard abortion as permissible in some circumstances, whereas very few are willing to say the same of infanticide (with some notable exceptions, as we will see). But this distinction has not been made by all peoples at all times. The anthropologist David F. Lancy describes the “far more common pattern”:

Among the ancient Greeks and Romans sickly, unattractive, or unwanted infants were “exposed” or otherwise eliminated; the Chinese and Hindus of India have, since time immemorial, destroyed daughters at birth, to open the way for a new pregnancy and a more desirable male offspring; the Japanese likened infanticide to thinning the rice plants in their paddies; among foragers such as the Inuit or the Jivaro, unwanted babies were left to nature to claim.

Modern technologies such as ultrasound allow us to identify undesirable characteristics (for instance, female sex or Down syndrome) earlier than our ancestors could, but the most common reasons given by women seeking abortions today—poverty, fetal disability, and simple unwantedness—were the same reasons given by mothers and fathers who killed their newborn infants in other times and places. Historical and anthropological accuracy therefore demands that we plot the acts of abortion and infanticide on a chronological continuum, since they have typically been performed for the same reasons and have been permitted in accordance with the same moral calculus.

It was the arrival of Christianity that disrupted the Romans’ favored methods of keeping reproduction in check, with laws against infanticide, and then abortion, imposed by Christian emperors from the late fourth century. Christians have always been unusually vehement in their disapproval of the killing of infants, whether born or unborn, and their legal regime prevailed until the mid-twentieth century when we experienced a religious shift that will probably be understood by future historians as a Second Reformation. Christians are no longer in charge, and their prohibition of abortion—unlike their prohibition of infanticide, at least so far—is regarded by most pro-choice secularists as archaic, illogical, and misogynist.

I am uneasily agnostic on this issue, and I use the word “agnostic” advisedly. I’m emotionally and intellectually drawn to Christianity, and—like everyone else—I was raised in a culture suffused with fading Christian morality and symbolism. But I don’t believe, not really. And that lack of sincere belief means that my position on abortion law is not bound by any religious framework. I do not wish to see abortion per se criminalized, not only because of the effect criminalization would certainly have on desperate women, but also because—if I am entirely honest with myself—there is a very limited number of circumstances in which I would want an abortion for myself, and I would want it to be legal.

But like most voters, even in our rapidly dechristianizing era, I don’t consider abortion morally trivial. Abortion is not just “healthcare”; it is not at all like getting a tooth or a tonsil removed. I am repulsed by the grandstanding of pro-choice activists who insist that all abortions are good abortions, and who have rejected the Clinton-era slogan “safe, legal, and rare” on the grounds that it promotes “stigma.” The slogan resonated because it roughly expressed the view of the modal American voter: that abortion is sometimes a necessity, but always sad.

Uneasy agnosticism on both abortion and infanticide has probably been the norm in Christian societies, even during periods when the church was far more powerful than it is today. Laura Gowing, for instance, writes of the reluctance of witnesses and neighbors to condemn women suspected of infanticide in seventeenth-century England: instead, they would present the accused as “confused and anxious, heartbroken and manipulated by her fear of naming the father.” Although a 1624 statute demanded that women found guilty of infanticide be hanged, courts were unlikely to hand down such a sentence. This reluctance persists still, as Helen Dale writes:

An echo of humanity’s infanticidal past is still found in jury rooms throughout the common law world: the reason we do not refer to infant-killing as “murder” is because in 1922, it was reclassified and re-named with passage of the Infanticide Act. This was done because juries refused to convict—even before 1920, when they were all male and the Crown case was overwhelming—and had been refusing to convict for some time. The only crime for which fewer convictions were recorded was abortion. In Scotland, there hadn’t been a successful abortion prosecution for 50 years. To this day, infanticide convictions are astonishingly rare.

“Juries,” as Helen put it to me, “are pagan.” Increasingly, we all are.

In 1939 T. S. Eliot gave a series of lectures at the University of Cambridge in which he described a fork in the road. Western Civilization might continue along the Christian path, he predicted, or it might adopt “modern paganism.” Eliot, a Christian convert, hoped for the former, but he feared that we were already hell-bent on the latter.

Eliot’s binary is the basis of a 2018 book by the legal historian Steven Smith titled Pagans and Christians in the City. One might reasonably ask why our choices should be limited to these two options, to be pagans or to be Christians. If we fully abandon Christianity, so say the secular reformers, shouldn’t that clear the way for some newer and better guiding philosophy?

No, says Smith, because paganism never really went away, which makes its return all the easier. Forget the account of history offered in, for instance, Gustave Doré’s painting The Triumph of Christianity Over Paganism, in which Christ and his sword-wielding angels descend from the sky and scatter the old gods. Even after the Christian emperors began to persecute pagans in earnest, Smith argues,

Paganism lingered on both in the countryside and in enclaves like Athens for decades, even centuries. . . . paganism endured as a powerful, evocative, shaping force in the historical memory and imagination of the West. It persisted both in a positive form—in wistful memories of (and attempts to recapture) the beauty and freedom that had ostensibly been lost with the suppression of paganism—and in the more negative form of a lingering anger or resentment toward the force that had supposedly defeated and suppressed it—namely, Christianity.

Smith and Eliot do not define paganism narrowly as an interest in entrails or in praying to Jupiter. Rather, they understand it as a fundamentally different outlook on the world, and on the sacred.

In theological terms, pagans are oriented toward the immanent. The pagan gods, in all their beauty and terror, are elements of this world, in contrast to the transcendent God of the Abrahamic faiths. To be sure, Christianity incorporated immanent elements over time. The ancient sacralization of sites such as wells and stones persisted, but with heathen deities replaced by Christian hermits or martyrs. Pagan festivals became entwined with the Christian calendar. The pantheon of deities was replaced by an ever-growing host of saints. Christianity flourished when it permitted followers to incorporate religious practices that were found, not only in Greek and Roman religion, but in many other religions—practices that seem, in fact, to be instinctive in human beings, particularly the veneration of nature and of ancestors.

We should understand Christianity’s impact on morality in much the same way—not as a process of replacement, but rather as a process of blending. The supremely strange thing about Christianity in anthropological terms is that it takes a topsy-turvy attitude toward weakness and strength. To put it crudely, most cultures look at the powerful and the wealthy and assume that they must be doing something right to have attained such might. The poor are poor because of some failing of their own, whether in this life or the last. The smallness and feebleness of women and children is a sign that they must be commanded by men. The suffering of slaves is not an argument against slavery, but an argument against allowing oneself to be enslaved.

Most cultures—perfectly logically—glorify warriors and kings, not those at the bottom of the heap. But Christianity takes a perverse attitude toward status and puts that perversity at the heart of the theology. “God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong” is a baffling and alarming claim to anyone from a society untouched by the strangeness of the Jesus movement.

The early Christian author Lactantius summarized the pagan objection to this topsy-turviness:

Why did [Christ] render Himself so humble and weak, that it was possible for Him both to be despised by men and to be visited with punishment? Why did He suffer violence from those who are weak and mortal? Why did He not repel by strength, or avoid by His divine knowledge the hands of men? Why did He not at least in His very death reveal His majesty?

In his book Dominion, a remarkable account of Christianity’s enduring impact on the West, Tom Holland tracks the development of this confusing preoccupation with weakness and humility. He notes that though early Christians might make the sign of the cross, or illustrate the Gospels with stylized crosses, they would not, for many centuries, regard the crucifixion as an appropriate subject for vivid artistic representation. The manner of their savior’s death was, to the Roman mind, so obscene and so humiliating as to be beneath mention. It was not until the fifth century that Christ began to be depicted in the moment of his death, and then never in a show of agony: These Christs were imagined with calm expressions, and as sculpted as a bodybuilder—or, more pertinently, a Roman god.

It took a millennium, argues Holland, for a new understanding of the Christian God to take hold of medieval Europe, “one in which the emphasis was laid not upon his triumph, but upon his suffering humanity.” New crucifixion scenes showed the reality of Christ’s suffering—the suffering of a condemned criminal, not of a king. Christians would spend the next millennium as victors over both the Old and New Worlds, frequently acting as violent persecutors. But built into the fabric of the religion was a love for the weak that could not help but (slowly, falteringly) work against the strong. Christians were not unique in owning slaves, for instance, but they were unique in eventually banning slavery, something that no other civilization had ever done before. And modern secular feminists familiar only with the caricature of Puritanism presented in Margaret Atwood’s The Handmaid’s Tale wholly underestimate the emancipatory effect that Christianity had on women.

What Kyle Harper has described as the “first sexual revolution” emerged in a slave society in which Roman men enjoyed unrestricted sexual access to the bodies of their social inferiors, including children, and murdered infants were understood as an acceptable consequence of the need for frequent male sexual release. The violation of slaves and other low-born people was simply, as Harper puts it, “beyond the field of vision for ancient thinkers.” All legal systems, including the Roman one, have some concept of rape as forbidden sexual violation. But rape is normally a crime that can be committed against only some categories of women—typically, only those whose male kin are inclined to object to the offense, and able to punish the perpetrator. The poor and the friendless have no such recourse, and they are thus defined as unrape-able.

The moral innovation of Christianity was to reconceptualize rape as a moral wrong done to the woman herself, regardless of her birth. Paul’s prohibition of (to use the Greek term) porneia—that is, illicit sexual activity, including prostitution—upended an ethical system in which male access to the female body was unquestioned and unquestionable. Whereas the Romans regarded male chastity as profoundly unhealthy, Christians prized it and insisted on it. Early converts were disproportionately female because the Christian valorization of weakness offered obvious benefits to the weaker sex, who could—for the first time—demand sexual continence of men. Feminism is not opposed to Christianity: It is its descendant.

The Irish writer Conor Fitzgerald uses the image of a necklace in describing the nature of moral systems. The system may contain discrete ideas—that feminism is a good thing, say, or that slavery is wrong—but all of these beads are threaded together on a string. “You can’t pick up the individual bead,” he posits, “without lifting the whole necklace.” You do not, I’m afraid, get to pick and choose.

When we accept the Christian emphasis on weakness as a crucial prior, many other moral conclusions follow. Slavery becomes unacceptable, as does the rape of low-status women. To point out the vulnerability of women, children, the poor, the enslaved, and the disabled is to argue in favor of their protection, not their persecution. Dress it up in secular language if you like, talk of “human rights” or of “humanism,” but this system of morality is far from universal. Holland asks,

How common, in antiquity, are the fundamental tenets of humanism: that humans—no matter their sex, their place of origin, their class—are all of equal value; and that those who walk in darkness must be brought into light? Not common at all, I would say. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that their fusion was pretty much a one-off.

In other words, secular humanism is just Christianity with nothing upstairs.

Here’s the problem for the feminists busy sawing at the branch on which they sit: The same Christian ideas that grant feminism its moral force carry other implications. Though women are a vulnerable group by virtue of their being smaller and weaker than men, there is another group of human beings who are weaker still. A group with no ability to defend themselves against violence, or to proclaim their rights. The very smallest and weakest among us, in fact. Whether we like it or not, we cannot place the protection of the vulnerable at the heart of our ethical system without reaching the conclusion that the unborn child ought not to be killed.

This presents a problem for feminism, because a prohibition on abortion places on women burdens that it does not place on men. And given the widespread practice of both abortion and infanticide, even in Christian cultures, it’s apparent that people struggle to abide by a moral principle that causes huge practical problems. Christianity only ever blended with paganism, rather than fully replacing it, because Christian teachings do cause huge practical problems for followers of the faith. It is difficult to be a good Christian; it is supposed to be.

The legal status of abortion is at the center of the contemporary culture war because it represents the bleeding edge of dechristianization. When pro-life and pro-choice advocates fight about the nitty-gritty of abortion policy, what they are really fighting about is whether our society ought to remain Christian. Most people who describe themselves as pro-choice have not really thought about what truly abandoning Christianity would mean—that is, truly abandoning Christians’ historically bizarre insistence that “God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.” But there are a few heralds of repaganization who are willing to be confidently and frighteningly consistent.

These are not evil people. They are not even unpleasant. In an extraordinary 2003 essay, the late Harriet McBryde Johnson, a legal scholar and activist who was disabled due to a neuromuscular disease, described her personal relationship with Peter Singer, perhaps our most influential modern philosopher, and a genial agent of repaganization—including on the question of infanticide.

“He insists he doesn’t want to kill me,” Johnson begins:

He simply thinks it would have been better, all things considered, to have given my parents the option of killing the baby I once was and to let other parents kill similar babies as they come along and thereby avoid the suffering that comes with lives like mine and satisfy the reasonable preferences of parents for a different kind of child.

Singer is one of the few philosophers writing today who is willing to follow the logic of arguments made in defense of abortion all the way to the end of the long, dusty road, concluding ultimately that there is no important moral distinction between abortion and infanticide, and that the killing of some newborn babies ought to be permitted in law.

“Newborn human babies have no sense of their own existence over time,” he explains. “So killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living.” Singer can make such claims because he rejects the notion that there is something special (dare we say, sacred) about human beings, whatever their age or cognitive abilities. He argues that one ought to assess a being’s rights based on his or her individual capacities, not on his or her membership of the human species. Within this argument is, writes McBryde Johnson, a “terrible purity.”

McBryde Johnson makes clear that Singer is not a villain. He is a kind and thoughtful person, and, on a personal level, she likes him. (Singer was also, as it happens, well-liked by my late grandmother—they were friends.) But Singer’s ideas can easily be put to villainy. He admits that the baby’s “sense of their own existence over time” does not appear suddenly but rather waxes into being. This fact presents a practical problem in the setting of a legal distinction between permissible and non-permissible child-killing. It’s a problem, of course, that all abortion legislation must face. If you do not set the limit at conception, then you must find some other point during gestation. Why not, asks Singer, push it a little further?

McBryde Johnson raises the specter of Auschwitz in her concluding paragraphs, and it is not difficult to draw parallels between a philosophy that denies the sacredness of human life and the philosophy of the Nazis. (“There is nothing particular about man. He is but a part of this world”—the words of Heinrich Himmler.) But we do not need to speak of Hitler, the secular stand-in for Satan himself, to warn against the risks of dechristianization. A world that embraced infanticide would not necessarily look anything like Nazi Germany. It would probably look like ancient Rome.

Or, indeed, twenty-first-century Canada. When it was first introduced in 2016, the Canadian Medical Assistance in Dying program (MAID) offered medically assisted suicide only to those patients whose deaths were foreseeable. But now MAID will be made available to the disabled and those suffering mental illness. Disturbing reports out of Canada suggest that the poor and the disabled are already under pressure to make use of this “service,” and depressed teenagers are eager to see it extended to so-called “mature minors,” as some euthanasia lobbyists propose.

Journalists have uncovered numerous examples of acutely distressed people applying for MAID because they have been denied health or welfare support from the state. Jennyfer Hatch, thirty-seven, was euthanized in October 2022, having given up hope of resolving the chronic pain caused by Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. She told friends that she was “falling through the cracks,” unable to access the state support she needed in order to go on living. Her desperate choice to die was glorified in a glossy TV commercial titled “All Is Beauty,” produced by the Canadian fashion retailer Simons. “Last breaths are sacred,” says Hatch in the commercial, released on the day after her death. Modern progressives still care about the sacred, it seems—just not the Christian sacred.

As Canada slips down its slippery slope, the legalization of infanticide is being discussed quite calmly within its government. In October, Louis Roy of the Quebec College of Physicians told the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying that parents should be able to arrange the deaths of babies up to one year old who are deemed to have “very grave and severe syndromes.” If infanticide is again legalized—first in Canada and then, inevitably, across the dechristianized world—we will know for sure that Christianity has retreated to the catacombs. And the date will come to be seen, I suspect, as a bright historical line: the moment at which we arrived at T. S. Eliot’s fork in the road and chose the older, darker path.

Christianity is often imagined as water. “But let justice run down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream”: the words of Amos 5:24, repurposed by Martin Luther King Jr. “He who believes in Me,” promises Christ, “out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” Water baptizes, gives life, quenches thirst, purifies filth, expunges flames, transforms things for the better. If Christianity is water, then it is an unstoppable force: It will run down and seep up, no matter the impediment.

But what if Christianity is not water? What if, instead, we understand the Christian era as a clearing in a forest? The forest is paganism: dark, wild, vigorous, and menacing, but also magical in its way. For two thousand years, Christians pushed the forest back, with burning and hacking, but also with pruning and cultivating, creating a garden in the clearing with a view upward to heaven.

But watch as roots outstretch themselves and new shoots spring up from the ground. The patch of sky recedes. “Paganism has not needed to be reinvented,” writes Steven Smith: It never went away. “In a certain sense, the Western world has arguably always remained more pagan than Christian. In some ways Christianity has been more of a veneer than a substantial reality.””

With no one left to tend the garden, the forest is reclaiming its ground.

Louise Perry is the author of The Case Against the Sexual Revolution.
 
Is that really an issue of Christianity though, or is that just a product of the Faustian enlightenment ideologies? Because it's not just Christians in the west that do that; it's pretty much everyone in the west that does that. This ideology of deconstruction infested Christianity first through institutions of learning - which at the time were explicitly religious - by way of natural philosophy. It does seem to be an unfortunate problem of examining the natural world relentlessly, that leads to a pathological deconstruction of nearly everything over time.
If by "deconstruction" you mean stuff like postmodernism, moral relativism, and guys like Foucault, I would say it depends who's doing the deconstruction, just as it depends who did the construction in the first place. When a psychopathic pedophile sadist like Foucault does it you'll wind up veering towards psychopathic pedophilic sadism. When someone like Fred Rogers expresses morality from first principles you get Mr. Roger's Neighborhood.

Sociopaths, sadists, and pedophiles are naturally attracted towards positions of power and authority. It takes long historical cycles of their excesses and abuses for normal people (the fundamental media of morality in practice) to reject those preferences and assert what I, also a normal person, naturally consider to be good. Right now it feels like we're hurtling towards another huge preference cascade. I hope what comes out of it has all of Christianity's good points with less of the bullshit and hand-waving.
I mean, I actually made a point, so you are the one arguing in bad faith. You went on a tangent about atrocities Christians did, but didn't even bother to actually answer the actual meat of my post. Also, the vast majority of deaths in the Spanish conquest of the Americas was a bunch of Native Americans dying because of a lack of resistance to smallpox (which is even attested to in Aztec codexes), which is not really comparable to actual warfare in any sense. Again, just another reason to mock you for having such low standards how you come to believe things.

Edit: Typo
You've argued in bad faith from the start, pretending Christianity is 1) a unified thing and not a bunch of related but distinct warring sects, 2) somehow responsible for all of the good in the world and none of the bad, and 3) literally factually and cosmologically true. If you can't or won't address the last point in particular it isn't worth taking you seriously.

To be extra clear, I like a lot of what Christianity (specifically Catholicism, Calvinism, and Anglo-American Protestantism e.g. Congregationalism) has said and done over the years. I agree with you that a lot of good has been done by Christian men acting according to Christian values. I don't agree that a Jew magicked ten thousand loaves of bread out of a basket, or that he came back to life after dying of exposure on a cross, or that the Pope is morally infallible, or that the Pope is an agent of Satan, or that it's impossible for non-Christian countries (like Japan, modern Denmark, Sweden, or Finland) to build good, just, loving and peaceful societies. Conversely, millions have been brutally slain in the name of Christ our Lord. Your refusal to admit this is distinctly un-Christian.
 
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I don't agree that a Jew magicked ten thousand loaves of bread out of a basket, or that he came back to life after dying of exposure on a cross, or that the Pope is morally infallible, or that the Pope is an agent of Satan,
I really don't care what you think. You really seem like a person that is unable to do basic research into a subject and just bases his worldview on what he feels. My faith comes from a place of actually studying the Early Church and going over the actual documents that first and second generation Christians left behind and it's certainly more convincing than a random person on the Internet.
, or that it's impossible for non-Christian countries (like Japan, modern Denmark, Sweden, or Finland) to build good, just, loving and peaceful societies
It fundamentally is because people are left to their own devices are very animalistic. Japan's pornographic industry preys on naive and vulnerable young women and essentially enslaves them to the Yakuza and forces them to pay off that debt with their body. Denmark, Sweden and Finland were aligned with Hitler during WW2 and more recently have done very non-Christian things by depriving their native populace of a government that cares about them in lieu of economic migrants they will pimp out to big business top solve a labor shortage due to their declining population. None of these are actions a good,just,loving and peaceful society does. There's a lot more skeevy shit going on beneath the basic bitch layer of propaganda that every country wants to portray themselves as and an underbelly that exposes the fundamental rot in society which shines a mirror to the heart of darkness in man. You've seen the UK cover up Muslim rape gangs, you've heard of the increase in violence in Sweden over the past decade that the government actively covers up to not be racist.

Fundamentally, people are animals. Rational animals, but animals that will take advantage of one another and screw each other out of what's rightfully theirs. Every sort of utopia is basically bullshit because of that one aspect of human nature: we're not perfect on an individual and collective level. That's why I think a lot of "rationalistic" watered-down versions of Christianity are rather feckless: they aren't how people naturally think, nor come together at all. They cover up the whole reason why human beings even need a religion like Christianity in the first place by pretending that we are always going to be good boys and religion makes us bad, not that we have animalistic tendencies that drive us away from what makes us human and indulging and obfuscating them only serves to destroy the human person and the society we live in like a slow acting poison.

Conversely, millions have been brutally slain in the name of Christ our Lord. Your refusal to admit this is distinctly un-Christian.
I literally fucking did mate. I'm not naive enough to believe that following a religion magically makes you a good Christian makes you a good or bad person. People have used Christianity to justify shit like slavery, the various witchhunts of the 16th - 18th century and a shit ton of wars inbetween not to mention a lot of the scam artists of the 20th century. It's also the source of the modern university and hospital system, the birth of modern science and in the process has saved billions of lives. Not to mention the atheistic Communist regimes managed to kill more people than even the most savage Christian genocide many times over. Mao killed 50 million and Stalin ~20 million over basically a decade whereas the Crusades and the Thirty Years' War killed 5 million. I wouldn't use numbers to try and justify my point if I were you since the 20th century is the most godless century (until the 21st), but singlehandedly the deadliest.
 
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Don't make the equal and opposite mistake. Morals codes aren't arbitrary. They may not always be consistent, they're rarely put into practice, but that doesn't mean there isn't a logic to them. That goes for everything from Christians to Greek philosophers to secular humanists.
I agree with you. One thing I like about Christianity (or Judaism, or Hellenism, or Hinduism) is its long written tradition of reasoned moral argument and debate. The point of such debate is reach a fundamentally human consensus on what is good or evil. Logic, life experience, and a long institutional memory are the foundations of any durable moral system. I just don't think that's because God wrote a book, or mouthed off at some Pharisees and got a book written about Him. I think that's because normal people ultimately reject any system of morality they perceive to be evil or unjust.

Almost no one actually wants to live in a "nothing is forbidden, everything is permitted" libertine orgy, Christian or not. That's because normal human beings— and when I say "normal," I mean you can plot their moral preferences as a high-dimensional normal distribution— prefer peaceful, loving, stable and prosperous societies where kids aren't raped and you aren't raped as a kid, where the streets are safe and you can trust your neighbors, where you feel like you belong, where your work has value and your children are cherished and protected. I don't know and cannot prove whether normal people are like this because God or Gods made us this way. I just know that's how normal people I have met are, and I'm one of them.

I also know moral preferences differ somewhat between groups based on heritable factors, but that's a separate discussion. Culture matters too but in the long run nurture is nature. The biggest threat I see in the long run to what I and most others know as good is evil psychos in control of human nature via technology.

My faith comes from a place of actually studying the Early Church and going over the actual documents that first and second generation Christians left behind
You mean like the Vedas? Or the Ramayana? Or the Talmud? Or the I Ching? Or the Kojiki? Or the sacred Nahua texts Catholic conquerors burned, now lost for all time, which we can only guess at through the Florentine Codex? Or the Testimonium Flavianum, which early Christians mucked with? If you cling to these you will never escape samsara.

Japan's pornographic industry preys on naive young women and essentially enslaves them to the Yakuza and forces them to pay off that debt with their body.
Wow man that's crazy. Glad the Christian US doesn't have an awful exploitative pornography industry. I'm sure our morally-perfected strong Christians wouldn't stand for it. Just like how they'd never stand for an awful exploitative medical billing industry. Or televangelism industry. Or arms industry.

I really don't care what you think
quackrock@mobile ~ % wc -m your_post.txt
2445 your_post.txt


That's a lot of typing for a guy who doesn't care what I think
 
Christianity in America is decadent, dying, and unwilling to defend itself. I don't know how anyone with access to the Internet and all of recorded human history can honestly believe in the story (or their version of it, among many) of a Jewish kid who rose from the dead and was the literal son of God. I don't believe it. Your kids won't believe it either, unless they're low-IQ or homeschooled by Pentacostals.

You'll hiss and spit at agnostics on an evil Internet gossip forum, but God forbid you ever take Earthly action to defend your faith, its symbols, or its institutions. The Catholics were the last group vaguely organized enough to make a go of this, but that energy's pretty much gone now. "Muscular Christianity" was the extinction burst of the vital Christian spirit. Now you're all toothless tantrum-throwing conservatives or simpering paypigs for leftist subversives.

It's a shame. Churches still serve a useful purpose. Many do a lot of good works. They're a valuable source of community. We don't have anything better as a fundamental system of values, set rules, or local organizing body IMO. But belief in the magic is gone, the Christian warrior spirit is extinct, the self-destructive universalism is retarded, and all the pretending in the world won't change this.
The stench of antimatter universe leddit coming off this post is rank

The :smug: ignorance, the patronizing 19 year-old understanding of human nature, the awkshoolly Christianity was best when Christians were the violent conquerors going against the ethics that made the religion unique and the greatest in human existence... it's remarkable
 
I just don't think that's because God wrote a book, or mouthed off at some Pharisees and got a book written about Him.
Well yeah, that's the inevitable conclusion if you don't believe such a being exists. I'm not so sure.

I'd say that if such transcendence DOESN'T exist, morality is ultimately arbitrary, even if some cultures try to construct it based on certain principles. But if it DOES exist, I think it's reasonable to believe that:

A. Correct morality could at least partially be discovered from nature and philosophy, which might explain certain crosscultural commonalities.
B. It's at least possible that a transcendent being WOULD communicate moral codes.

But that really comes down to whether you believe in that kind of being, which it sounds like you don't.

You mean like the Vedas? Or the Ramayana? Or the Talmud? Or the I Ching? Or the Kojiki? Or the sacred Nahua texts Catholic conquerors burned, now lost for all time, which we can only guess at through the Florentine Codex?
I know this wasn't directed at me, but what's your point?

Or the Testimonium Flavianum, which early Christians mucked with?
... no, seriously, what's your point?
 
The stench of antimatter universe leddit coming off this post is rank

The :smug: ignorance, the patronizing 19 year-old understanding of human nature, the awkshoolly Christianity was best when Christians were the violent conquerors going against the ethics that made the religion unique and the greatest in human existence... it's remarkable
Any religion is just people. Today Christianity's people are overwhelmingly fat punk-ass bitches who won't do shit. They sit on their fat asses pining for past glories, consoling themselves with the promise of Heaven. The world would respect you more if you actually did anything.

Again I don't hate the moral tradition, or all the past glories of the Church, or even most Christians. What I really hate are, for instance, the dumb fucking retards who think they can sit on their fat asses until Michael the Archangel swoops in at the last second to save the day. That is just not going to happen. First, Michael the Archangel is made up. Second, you simply aren't going to convince a bunch of atheist/Jewish/Satanist/"Christian" woke kid diddlers that they shouldn't trans kids because God says so. You have to actually do something. Ditto immigration, abortion, race quotas, human gene-line alteration.

You have to take a stand and back it up with action and sacrifice, or it becomes obvious to everyone that you don't ACTUALLY believe what you say you believe. Reason helps too but like I said on page 2, force and strong emotional appeals tend to win.

At least Muslims, illiterate cousin-fucking retards that they are, have balls:

Screen Shot 2023-09-14 at 7.35.25 PM.png
I know this wasn't directed at me, but what's your point?
There are lots of well-written, very old religious texts, some much older than the texts of early Christianity. I leave it to the other guy to explain why his faves are true and all others are lies.
 
They don't do shit, he proclaimed, leaning back from the screen in self satisfaction. Gottem

Your comments are only explicable coming from someone who doesn't know much about the world, or is spending a lot of words to go joke's on them I was only pretending to be retarded

Christianity is quite respected and active globally including still in the regions you imagine it is a dead gay nigger religion, and you could find this out very easily if you cared to take the 5 minutes to stop huffing your own farts
 
I just don't think that's because God wrote a book, or mouthed off at some Pharisees and got a book written about Him. I think that's because normal people ultimately reject any system of morality they perceive to be evil or unjust.
Again I do not care. I think opinions are really undercooked in the actual objective support category. Your posts illustrate that.


That's because normal human beings— and when I say "normal," I mean you can plot their moral preferences as a high-dimensional normal distribution— prefer peaceful, loving, stable and prosperous societies where kids aren't raped and you aren't raped as a kid, where the streets are safe and you can trust your neighbors, where you feel like you belong, where your work has value and your children are cherished and protected.
Okay, but how many societies without Christianity, let alone religion are like that? Even Christian ones weren't able to attain these ideals and places like the entire Asian continent are hellscapes of brutalistic behavior historically. Samurais could and would cut peasants in half to test whether their sword was sharp and legally they could do nothing about that if you were a peasant. Traditional pagan societies in Europe and in the Indo-Aryan subcontinent had similar caste stratification rules that dictated what rights you had (or likely didn't have) from birth. (The whole concept of human rights goes back to the School of Salamancana (in Spain) , in the 1500, when a bunch of Catholic priests came to the conclusion that all humans are equal under God and thus deserving of all the same rights according to God's Justice,Mercy and Love.) The thing is though, that would be perfectly normal to them. Roman elites raping their slaves and sending them to die in the gladiatorial arena is an normal as apple pie for us as is Hindus and Muslims having a highly negative view of women to the point that they are at risk just living in those societies. Stop being ignorant of basic cultural differences. Just because something is normal doesn't mean it's good. You really universalize the culture you are in and act like people forma different time or place wouldn't think this culture is shit for one reason or another.


You mean like the Vedas? Or the Ramayana? Or the Talmud? Or the I Ching? Or the Kojiki? Or the sacred Nahua texts Catholic conquerors burned, now lost for all time, which we can only guess at through the Florentine Codex? Or the Testimonium Flavianum, which early Christians mucked with? If you cling to these you will never escape samsara.
Those are all mythic texts. I am talking about eyewitness testimony of the first couple generations of Christians. People like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, the Didache, the reports of the 1st century Stoics and other philosophers on Christians (not technically Christians these ones but they all are a good source of what they believed and frankly why they believed it). The difference is none of those things you listed are historical documents; they're basically a collection of myths. If you would stop huffing your farts, I clearly stated that in my original post. Also, boohoo, a gorup of people that practiced human sacrifice to such crazy degrees that the neighboring tribes hated them (since they got their victims from their own tribes) and sided with the Spanish against them lost their sacred books. Even the Romans and Greeks (let alone the Hebrews) considered people that practiced human sacrifice subhuman and they're right.

Wow man that's crazy. Glad the Christian US doesn't have an awful exploitative pornography industry. I'm sure our morally-perfected strong Christians wouldn't stand for it. Just like how they'd never stand for an awful exploitative medical billing industry. Or televangelism industry. Or arms industry.
You are the one pretending Japan is magically perfect without Christianity or religion in general. Meanwhile, in reality, it's a fucking brutal place that only has the visage of being perfect due to good marketing. I understand these things exist in the US, but how does that tie in with non-Christian nations being literal utopias in your POV?

quackrock@mobile ~ % wc -m your_post.txt
2445 your_post.txt


That's a lot of typing for a guy who doesn't care what I think
That's just called being through. If you were through, you wouldn't be making very basic mistakes a lot of Phil 101 students make when reasoning, like injecting your personal bias into the topic directly and flat out misrepresenting what I said. I don't know; I don't care about what you think but I do care how I elaborate my thought in a way that's more demonstrable than an opinion? Everyone has an opinion, but opinions are worthless without facts.


I am so sick of these baizou that think they know shit when they very clearly don't. You really have not done any sort of research into any of these topics like I have. If you did, even if you don't come to the conclusion of God existing (which is fine), you'd pretty much realize that the only sort of society where the weak and the strong and co-exist in peace is an explicitly Christian one since that is where all your ideas of peace, justice and unity come from. Such ideas do not exist apart from Christianity and not an intrinsic part of human nature, Tou can't have your cake and eat it too basically.
 
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There are lots of well-written, very old religious texts, some much older than the texts of early Christianity. I leave it to the other guy to explain why his faves are true and all others are lies.
Okay. So? Doesn't matter if they're old. Doesn't matter if they're well written. What matters is if they're true.

I can tell you why I think the New Testament is more or less accurate, but I really don't think you'd even be willing to consider the metaphysical claims related to, say, the Resurrection. Based on what you've posted so far it seems like you believe we live in a universe where that kind of thing just doesn't happen. If that's your firm conviction, well, okay. There's not much point in discussing possible alternatives.
 
They don't do shit, he proclaimed, leaning back from the screen in self satisfaction
It makes me very fucking mad that the blood of my blood isn't doing shit. Not going to self-dox but let's say I am a do-something kind of duck. I'd rather have Muscular Christianity than fucking Sunni Islam out in the streets against trans shit for example. It is what it is
 
Religion does one useful thing: instill in people a sense of service and self-sacrifice. Sir John Glubb in his book, Fate of Empires points to societies crumbling because they become wealthy and decadent, losing their ability to act beyond their own hedonistic interests. No one wants to die when they're physically comfortable, even if a much better afterlife awaits beyond the veil.

Christianity has suffered particular decline because it is a K-Selected religion, made to shape people up and get them to work when scarcity threatens, punishing them when they have kids outside of marriage or do anything that places undue burden on a society that can't support it. As the world got wealthier, and living grew easier, the need for Christianity became less apparent. The last 100 years of Christianity in history has been people saying "Science and Technology have fed us, cured our diseases and made everything affordable. What do we need God for?" Followed by horrific genocides and world wars because humans are still monkeys that need moral guidance even if they can feed and clothe themselves. Science and Technology can't make disparate groups of humans with differing needs and psychologies get along with each other, and it can't create a One Size Fits All Utopia that everyone can thrive in.
 
It makes me very fucking mad that the blood of my blood isn't doing shit. Not going to self-dox but let's say I am a do-something kind of duck. I'd rather have Muscular Christianity than fucking Sunni Islam out in the streets against trans shit for example. It is what it is
It makes me amused that you think what you're doing is anything more than an unsubtle kind of indirect way of making this webzone your personal blog, as far as this thread goes anyway
 
I can tell you why I think the New Testament is more or less accurate, but I really don't think you'd even be willing to consider the metaphysical claims related to, say, the Resurrection.
There are more "firsthand accounts" of miracles involving Sikh gurus, Hindu mystics, the Buddha, Muhammad, Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard than Jesus Christ, and if you trust supposed firsthand accounts of such miracles that drastically tapered off once audio/visual recording became commonplace then I don't think we'll agree. Jesus was probably real and big into the Golden Rule, though.
Christianity is quite respected and active globally including still in the regions you imagine it is a dead gay nigger religion, and you could find this out very easily if you cared to take the 5 minutes to stop huffing your own farts
Hope you convert all the Zoomers to a reasonable Christian denomination. Really. It'd be better than whatever bullshit they'll be spoonfed by TikTok and TeachGPT. It'd instill far better values and habits than whatever their one remaining parent will beat into them. I just don't think it's gonna happen, because magical fairy tale bullshit is transparently obvious and uninteresting to any curious mind with a copy of Encarta 2009. Christianity is coasting, and that won't last forever.
 
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Yeah I saw that, "based" my ass, they are gonna bend the knee eventually...
21st century Christian moment
you'd pretty much realize that the only sort of society where the weak and the strong and co-exist in peace is an explicitly Christian one since that is where all your ideas of peace, justice and unity come from. Such ideas do not exist apart from Christianity and not an intrinsic part of human nature
Sorry but I had to laugh at this. We're just not gonna talk about peace, justice, and unity in Buddhism, Islam, Confucianism? My friend, you're confusing "other religions don't have benevolent universalism" with "other religions didn't need to justify global military domination." Or do you think literally every non-Christian system of belief involves Christian Europe levels of war, injustice, and disunity?

The whole agnostic or deistic thesis is that Earthly religious precepts are of man, so by definition Christianity stems from intrinsic parts of its authors' human nature. What part doesn't make sense? Please don't pull another "Christianity or Communism/Fascism, nothing in between!"
 
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