Warcraft III: Refunded General - How one company managed to mess up a remaster of a 17 year old game.

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I've always been curious about Command & Conquer. It's like the game besides StarCraft people bring up when discussing classic RTS games.

You know what's absolutely crazy though? Origin has that Ultimate Collection which has 17 fucking games. All for $20 too, which is an insane deal. I could get way more out of that collection than this Warcraft III remaster, and that wouldn't even include all the fan community shit you're talking about.

We live in a world where fucking EA has a better deal regarding the classic RTS series than Blizzard and that's just bizarre.

Wanna go for doubles?

If you have the older non-origin versions of the games via earlier compilations, they still work and can connect to most of the other versions for lan games, which are still supported. You can have someone with a launch copy of Generals+Zero Hour, another with the C&C Collection version, a third with C&C: The First Decade, and a fourth with the origin release, and provided the patches are up to date, they all can play together with zero problems.

Not good enough? Don't worry: EA is still running servers for Generals, Tiberium Wars, and Red Alert 3 via C&C Online, or you can hook up to any of the dozens of alternate community-made servers. Don't like Origin? No problem, just use the physical release. Welcome to the side of RTS gaming that happens when the turbonerds are left to their own devices and EA gives it the thumbs-up.
 
If you have the older non-origin versions of the games via earlier compilations, they still work and can connect to most of the other versions for lan games, which are still supported. You can have someone with a launch copy of Generals+Zero Hour, another with the C&C Collection version, a third with C&C: The First Decade, and a fourth with the origin release, and provided the patches are up to date, they all can play together with zero problems.
What fucking black magic is this? This is actually really cool.

Not good enough? Don't worry: EA is still running servers for Generals, Tiberium Wars, and Red Alert 3 via C&C Online, or you can hook up to any of the dozens of alternate community-made servers. Don't like Origin? No problem, just use the physical release. Welcome to the side of RTS gaming that happens when the turbonerds are left to their own devices and EA gives it the thumbs-up.
I seriously thought I'd never say this, but good job EA. You actually treat at least one series and its fans with genuine respect.
 
If they were planning a final expansion, Legion was supposed to be it. WoD was a last minute thing to be a tie in for the movie and it would explain the stupid time travelling plot pulled from someone's ass and why they gave up half way through (and then tried to justify it that demons aren't affected by time and you fighting Archimonde the second time actually meant something which opens a whole can of paradoxes). Legion tried to fix it a bit and tied some loose ends that weren't addressed since Cata but then came retcons and pushing cartoon lovecraft monsters as the big bad and fucking that up big as we saw with N'Zoth in BFA and it didn't help that they wasted half of expansion on another stupid faction war because they can't market tentacle monsters properly, also Azshara who should have had her own expansion was another big waste.
Thing is with the game, Every expansion past Wraith was supposed to be "the last" because the engine just can't handle it anymore. They wanted a new MMO or at least a new engine for WoW but never pulled the trigger. They had a new IP in the works years ago for a new MMO, but they pulled the plug and put many of the people working on it to work on Overwatch.
 
I'm actually wondering if what Blizzard has done isn't outright illegal. They're STILL using the animated cutscenes, which aren't actually in the game, in their advertizing for the game. As well as fucking with the original copies of the game.
I'm no lawyer, but something tells me that if a class action lawsuit started there'd be no way in hell a judge would side with Blizzard.

You're shitting me, EA did all that? Wow, it's almost like they still have a minimum level of respect for their established players even with all of their bullshit.
I never thought I'd ever type this following line out, but.... EA > Blizzard
The fact that I unironically typed that really shows you how very hard Blizzard has fallen in recent years.
People use bullshots in marketing all the time. Even "based" CDPR has pre-downgrade Witcher 3 screenshots shown off in the installer

EDIT: To be fair to CDPR Witcher 2 is the only game I know of that looked substantially worse before release than after, so I guess it cancels out.
 
Eh, EA has nothing to do with C&C online it's all community driven.

Wouldn't surprise me, but the point is, shit still works fine.

They already announced they're teaming up with CNCnet for server support for all future titles.
 
Yeah, good luck with that. Any pirated copies only go up to 1.27 (the patch without most of the QoL changes and widescreen fix from 1.29) you won’t be able to access any multiplayer or single-player content (save for the campaign), and of course, even if you were able to get through all that, you still gotta deal with the fact that it’s now online-only and requires log-in (yes: somehow, someway, even for your pirated version of the game because BNet is now literal cancer to your hardware, in that it can now detect which version you have).

Which is fine if you just want to play the campaign and nothing else, but sucks if you want to do anything more than that.
Well fuck, theres goes that idea. Thought that pirated versions would at least be able to play together, but I guess since I've never been in the games community sphere, my knowledge on the subject is quite lacking. Good job on assfucking more people than I thought Blizzard.
 
This is the same mindset that gave birth to Command and Conquer 3, which is one of the best RTS games ever made, so there's a lot of potential here. Conversely if you want to go back to the past and see where RTS games began, fire up Dosbox and play Dune 2. It's clunky, slow, and and chunky as hell but the gameplay holds up generations later.
Let me oldfag even harder by saying C&C3 is neither great as an RTS, and is downright terrible as C&C game. It was the second step in murdering the series dead by being a 100% esports/MPfag game first and foremost. See, the '00s was not a kind period for RTS, chief among them cnc. Primary goal for everyone under the sun was becoming the next SC, and in the first half of the decade, this effort resulted in some manner of success. SC2 was not even close to being on the horizon, and the Dota ball hasn't started rolling yet, so games like C&C Generals got free real estate to shine on the scene, which almost solely comprised of people bored with Brood War looking for a new game. Read, it wasn't the old C&C audience growing or settling into MP, it was a migrating SC audience jumping game from game for MP. This audience brought with them their MPfaggotry to every game they touched, and as an incredibly vocal and active audience, drowned out the native audiences opinions almost completely, thus leading to SP being an afterthought, as "nobody plays RTS for the SP", that old mpfag chestnut, and developers pandering solely to them because of that alluring SC esports money, which noone got to. This mentality defined, and ruined RTS in the '00s for good.

Now, one of the games they settled on back then was Generals, the first step in murdering C&C, expanding on that in a bit. Generals, right? One of the classics, it's in the The First Decade! Absolutely not. The people that played TibSun, RA2 and older C&C games, fucking hated that piece of shit. Frankly, it didn't play like C&C, a lot of hallmarks of the C&C design were missing, the universal sidebar and unpack button, replaced with single construction units and a SC esque upgrade and unit ability system, lacklustre campaign that was missing the series hallmark FMVs, and unit behaviour that felt completely different from the grid based movement in all the prior games. Emperor is sometimes brought up against Generals as to how a 3D C&C game would play and feel.

But then where did the love for this game come from? Well, to quote SC esports fag and ass cancer victim TotalBiscuit, "I didn't play much RA2 and I didn't like it, but I played so much Generals and it was great!" The afformentioned migrating SCfag latched onto their 'first' C&C game and proclaimed it the greatest. In reality, it was a SCified bastard child in the franchise aimed directly at capturing them, but they wouldn't know or care about that since they never really played and thus knew what real C&C played like. And since discourse was defined by SC/MPtards for RTS in the '00s, Generals became regarded as one the 'core classics', despite being a complete no show with the old C&C audience. From Tiberian Dawn to Emperor fricking Battle of Dune, top down to isometric, 2d to 3d you'll find C&C played in one very recognisable and consistent way. Generals was completely at odds with that, but since it got propped up at the time on the scene, it became the baseline for future C&C games, and thus the series was coopted by the new MPfag crowd near entirely.

Moving onto 2007, the MP success of Generals convinced the developers that they were doing good work, and thus C&C3 was made as a full esports game, ready take everything over. Patches solely existed for the sake of MP balance, no matter how much the campaign missions got fucked over by balance changes. For the gameplay, they used Generals as a base and built on top of it. Some of the superficial mechanical quirks of old C&C were replicated, but at its core, 3 moved and felt like Generals 2.0. Narratively and art wise it was a soft reboot, gone was the C&C2 grungy 90s scifi feel, replaced with late 2000s clean SciFi channel shit and comic book-y art and a return to C&C95 tanks and shit. Despite the initial hype and success, the game failed to gain foothold as an esports mainstay, it had a flavor of the month window with the MPfag crowd, but EA and the devs miscalculated the staying power of their new game over this sensation called Dota. See, a lot has changed since 2003 on the MP scene, in the interim period Dota gobbled up almost the entire post Brood War MP crowd and was snowballing and simultaneously bulldozing the esports RTS. The audience gained with Generals evaporated. The old RA2/C&C2 crowd? They were drawn back with the nostalgia milking of Kane and the brand, but were soon alienated by the game being a Generals-like, a game that audience never like to begin with, and the jarring regression in story and setting compared to Tiberian Sun left people confused. This was the first great blow that killed the series in the end. This was followed by the jack of no trades, failure of all RA3 flopping.

C&C4 is wrongly credited as the game that killed the series, as well as being a game that came into existence for no reason. Reality is, it was last ditch effort shit being thrown at the wall to see if it sticks after Tiberium Wars and RA3 shit the bed.

There's a bit of karmic schadenfruede over the SC audience killing every other RTS in the 2000s by SCificying them, to then later go play Dota instead, and as a result kill SC2 and the what was left of the genre as well.

tl;dr: it fucking sucked bro

As an aside Dune 2 aged like milk. If anyone wants to 'play' it, I'd recommend source ports/remakes with quality of life improvements of later C&C games backported instead. Y'know, like selecting multiple units at the same time.
 
Allow this oldfag to steer you into alternatives.

While Blizzard was succumbing to the infestation it now has, EA, for all its problems, did something right: Embraced its fan community for Command and Conquer.

It gave the fans the source code to the early games, which they used to mod the shit out of them, make maps, and in many cases, take the games apart and put them back together again to make them work on new systems. Want to play any of the first like nine C&C games on a modern rig? The fan community can make it happen. Want to try fun spinoffs like C&C Renegade? Don't worry, the fan communities run the servers now. Want to try a fanmade free game that combines Red Alert 1 with Tiberium Dawn using Tiberium Sun's engine, and creates a fucking amazing gameplay experience? Done.

About 2 years ago, EA made a very quiet announcement that it was ensuring all further C&C games had dedicated end-of-life plans with full intention to allow them to be turned over to the community when their time was up with pre-set-up support for fan servers, LAN support, and so on. They got as much of Command and Conquer 1 and 3's staff back together as possible for the remaster, including Joseph David Kucan, Kane himself. About the only guy they couldn't get was the actor for Shepard, who passed away in 2019. It was the first sign that EA was getting ready to enter the final stage of the EA cycle, where it finally starts to get its shit together again, but the biggest sign of better on the horizon came from the announcement that EA was specifically working with CNCnet on the remasters, and announced that it was not going to file any copyright shit against fangames of any kind. This is a fucking fantastic thing. These are turbonerds who took the game apart and put it back together so many times that they know individual unit speeds and turning times from memory. Many have been around since the original games released back in the 90s. EA knows that if it wants to ever make this franchise sing again it's going to need the turbonerds that made it good in the first place.

This is the same mindset that gave birth to Command and Conquer 3, which is one of the best RTS games ever made, so there's a lot of potential here. Conversely if you want to go back to the past and see where RTS games began, fire up Dosbox and play Dune 2. It's clunky, slow, and and chunky as hell but the gameplay holds up generations later.



Yep! And your big box battle chest will become the shitty censored version if you ever connect to battle.net with it.

Your copy of Warcraft 2 from the same box will still work fine, hilariously enough.

Old C&C nerd here. You just made my week.

I'd stopped paying attention to anything EA did/said about C&C after that shitty browser-based clicker game they made years ago. Good to know they're finally getting their act together.

It's hilarious that was going on while the old C&C/Westwood rivals Warcraft/Blizzard are going down the shitter. I don't get any schadenfreude joy from it, I've never really hated Blizzard, but the fans gave them a pass for way too long, and now they're getting the same feeling I had after C&C 4 came out.

Edit:
Moving onto 2007, the MP success of Generals convinced the developers that they were doing good work, and thus C&C3 was made as a full esports game, ready take everything over. Patches solely existed for the sake of MP balance, no matter how much the campaign missions got fucked over by balance changes. For the gameplay, they used Generals as a base and built on top of it.

Man, don't get me started on how bad those patches were. Every Nod faction got ripped apart and watered down in the stupidest ways possible, multiple times, and they still never achieved proper "balance". I'm still salty about it, and if it were on topic (and I had 2 hours to kill) I'd sperg out about it all over again.
 
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I've always been curious about Command & Conquer. It's like the game besides StarCraft people bring up when discussing classic RTS games.

You know what's absolutely crazy though? Origin has that Ultimate Collection which has 17 fucking games. All for $20 too, which is an insane deal. I could get way more out of that collection than this Warcraft III remaster, and that wouldn't even include all the fan community shit you're talking about.

We live in a world where fucking EA has a better deal regarding the classic RTS series than Blizzard and that's just bizarre.
It's a cold cold cold cold cold FUCKING COLD day in Hell when EA is treating its old franchises better than Activision Blizzard.
Somebody get the Devil a coat.
 
Old C&C nerd here. You just made my week.

I'd stopped paying attention to anything EA did/said about C&C after that shitty browser-based clicker game they made years ago. Good to know they're finally getting their act together.

It's hilarious that was going on while the old C&C/Westwood rivals Warcraft/Blizzard are going down the shitter. I don't get any schadenfreude joy from it, I've never really hated Blizzard, but the fans gave them a pass for way too long, and now they're getting the same feeling I had after C&C 4 came out.

Edit:


Man, don't get me started on how bad those patches were. Every Nod faction got ripped apart and watered down in the stupidest ways possible, multiple times, and they still never achieved proper "balance". I'm still salty about it, and if it were on topic (and I had 2 hours to kill) I'd sperg out about it all over again.

It's to me kind of interesting because despite Westwood (and EA, after they bought it out) basically pioneering and ingenuitizing the genre, it was Blizzard's craft line that won over the foreign markets. The shit that @capitalBBustard complained about? All that happened because Blizzard basically dominated that market. Generals was trying to do something different for that very reason, and Tiberium Wars was extensively streamlined for the E-Sports circuit for the same. DOTA emerging from WC3 was just another feather in their cap.

It's amazing how quickly they threw all of that away. First by killing SC2's fan content creation and then with reforged.

I honestly thought that we'd seen the limits of sheer failure with Fallout 76. Then Google Stadia showed me how short-sighted that opinion was, before Warcraft Reforged somehow managed to retroactively fuck up a game that's been happily existing on its own with no problems for nearly 2 decades:

Battle Net.png

A transtemporal failure is something I never deigned to dream could exist before, but here we fucking are.

I always go with the honerable compromise of despising them both.

You should. Until the EA cycle fully completes its rotation, it should remain condemned.
 
Let me oldfag even harder by saying C&C3 is neither great as an RTS, and is downright terrible as C&C game. It was the second step in murdering the series dead by being a 100% esports/MPfag game first and foremost. See, the '00s was not a kind period for RTS, chief among them cnc. Primary goal for everyone under the sun was becoming the next SC, and in the first half of the decade, this effort resulted in some manner of success. SC2 was not even close to being on the horizon, and the Dota ball hasn't started rolling yet, so games like C&C Generals got free real estate to shine on the scene, which almost solely comprised of people bored with Brood War looking for a new game. Read, it wasn't the old C&C audience growing or settling into MP, it was a migrating SC audience jumping game from game for MP. This audience brought with them their MPfaggotry to every game they touched, and as an incredibly vocal and active audience, drowned out the native audiences opinions almost completely, thus leading to SP being an afterthought, as "nobody plays RTS for the SP", that old mpfag chestnut, and developers pandering solely to them because of that alluring SC esports money, which noone got to. This mentality defined, and ruined RTS in the '00s for good.

Now, one of the games they settled on back then was Generals, the first step in murdering C&C, expanding on that in a bit. Generals, right? One of the classics, it's in the The First Decade! Absolutely not. The people that played TibSun, RA2 and older C&C games, fucking hated that piece of shit. Frankly, it didn't play like C&C, a lot of hallmarks of the C&C design were missing, the universal sidebar and unpack button, replaced with single construction units and a SC esque upgrade and unit ability system, lacklustre campaign that was missing the series hallmark FMVs, and unit behaviour that felt completely different from the grid based movement in all the prior games. Emperor is sometimes brought up against Generals as to how a 3D C&C game would play and feel.

But then where did the love for this game come from? Well, to quote SC esports fag and ass cancer victim TotalBiscuit, "I didn't play much RA2 and I didn't like it, but I played so much Generals and it was great!" The afformentioned migrating SCfag latched onto their 'first' C&C game and proclaimed it the greatest. In reality, it was a SCified bastard child in the franchise aimed directly at capturing them, but they wouldn't know or care about that since they never really played and thus knew what real C&C played like. And since discourse was defined by SC/MPtards for RTS in the '00s, Generals became regarded as one the 'core classics', despite being a complete no show with the old C&C audience. From Tiberian Dawn to Emperor fricking Battle of Dune, top down to isometric, 2d to 3d you'll find C&C played in one very recognisable and consistent way. Generals was completely at odds with that, but since it got propped up at the time on the scene, it became the baseline for future C&C games, and thus the series was coopted by the new MPfag crowd near entirely.

Moving onto 2007, the MP success of Generals convinced the developers that they were doing good work, and thus C&C3 was made as a full esports game, ready take everything over. Patches solely existed for the sake of MP balance, no matter how much the campaign missions got fucked over by balance changes. For the gameplay, they used Generals as a base and built on top of it. Some of the superficial mechanical quirks of old C&C were replicated, but at its core, 3 moved and felt like Generals 2.0. Narratively and art wise it was a soft reboot, gone was the C&C2 grungy 90s scifi feel, replaced with late 2000s clean SciFi channel shit and comic book-y art and a return to C&C95 tanks and shit. Despite the initial hype and success, the game failed to gain foothold as an esports mainstay, it had a flavor of the month window with the MPfag crowd, but EA and the devs miscalculated the staying power of their new game over this sensation called Dota. See, a lot has changed since 2003 on the MP scene, in the interim period Dota gobbled up almost the entire post Brood War MP crowd and was snowballing and simultaneously bulldozing the esports RTS. The audience gained with Generals evaporated. The old RA2/C&C2 crowd? They were drawn back with the nostalgia jerking off of Kane and the brand, but were soon alienated by the game being a Generals-like, a game that audience never like to begin with, and the jarring regression in story and setting compared to Tiberian Sun left people confused. This was the first great blow that killed the series in the end. This was followed by the jack of no trades, failure of all RA3 flopping.

C&C4 is wrongly credited as the game that killed the series, as well as being a game that came into existence for no reason. Reality is, it was last ditch effort shit being thrown at the wall to see if it sticks after Tiberium Wars and RA3 shit the bed.

There's a bit of karmic schadenfruede over the SC audience killing every other RTS in the 2000s by SCificying them, to then later go play Dota instead, and as a result kill SC2 and the what was left of the genre as well.

tl;dr: it fucking sucked bro

As an aside Dune 2 aged like tard cum. If anyone wants to 'play' it, I'd recommend source ports/remakes with quality of life improvements of later C&C games backported instead. Y'know, like selecting multiple units at the same time.
Oldfag CNC fanboy here. I don't really agree.

Generals was honestly a perfectly fine RTS. It had absolutely jack squat to do with CNC, that was just a title plastered on to move more units. But there was nothing particularly wrong with Generals as a game.

While the aesthetic of CNC did change somewhat with Tiberium Wars, it still felt much, much, MUCH more like a real CNC game than any other since Tiberian Sun. While not AS good as earlier games in the series, I would argue all day erry day that it was a modern, streamlined rendition of the Tiberium series rather than being a clone of Generals. I can't really comment on the multiplayer aspects, as I don't think I've ever played a CNC game online despite hundreds of hours in single player.

RA3 was... RA3. 'nuff said. But that was never really the problem. The wild divergence in tone between the Red Alert and Tiberium series started with 2, not 3. It wasn't exactly unprecedented. And while I thought RA2 was fun, I didn't really care for the shift in tone as far as CNC as a series goes. A lot of people forget that RA1 was an absolutely dead serious game about a fictional world war.

No, I think the traditional diagnosis of CNC4 killing the series is correct. Simply because it was seriously THAT bad.
 
I can understand why they brought back WoW classic, but who asked for the wc3 remake?

Warcraft 3 was extremely popular for a few reasons: It would run on a fucking ancient rig, it had good enough gameplay to be a good LAN party game, you could do dozens of fucking things with the in-game scripting alone to the point of making entirely new games, from RPGs (complete with password support) to puzzle games, and so on. All that the fans were asking for was making it work on modern rigs and maybe giving a fresh coat of paint.

What they got?

Behold the Warcrafrt.png
 
This got me to find a "prepaid" version and play the game because I always put it off. The campaign is fun, but it sucks the custom game scene got gutted as those always sounded fun to me. Although after 17 years it would have been way too late anyway.
 
Maaaan, it blows that they've botched this remaster of Warcraft 3. It especially stings since the Starcraft remaster was pretty much perfect in every way. Good thing I didn't lay money on this shit-fest. This is why you don't pre-order, kids!

At least I still have my discs lying around. Might as well revisit it...
 
Surprised to see so many old C&C boomers. I played Tiberian Dawn when I was eight and it was, a matter of fact, one of my first video games ever. What a return to my childhood that would be if the upcoming remaster turns out to be good with C&C being back and on top, because everyone else is either dead or has completely lost the fucking plot.
Go for it, I'm always down to read spergnados about gaming history that I'd never otherwise hear about.
It's mostly just personal anecdotes since I was just some random weeb who figured out Starcraft modding. Because I was into Dragon Ball Z back in the day I made (but never finished) a scenario that was basically Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz going postal. I'd use the model of the Protoss High Templar as a base and gave them melee attacks of the Zealot. Since the graphics weren't sophisticated back then, you could easily fill the blanks with your imagination. I created custom portraits more or less the same way you'd make them for animated forum avatars, both for idle and talking animation. And on top of that the characters would have voice lines I'd rip from the Ocean Dub. I repeated the same with characters form other anime series such as Silent Möbius and Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.

In a similar vein you had the aforementioned Vision of the Future series. The first entry is, believe it or fucking not, a crossover between Starcraft and Ranma ½. Sounds silly, is silly and the absolute madmen made it work somehow to be fun. I was just a teenage weeb who liked both Starcraft and Ranma ½ so I couldn't say no. The other three sequel campaigns are still heavily influenced by 90s anime and JRPGs (such as Gundam, Cowboy Beebop, Ys etc.). And as already mentioned, you had mods that were elaborate RPGs similar to the Orc campaign from Frozen Throne, but also campaigns where people were trying (with varying degrees of quality of course) to expand the lore (when people actually still cared about it).
 
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