Venezuela's collapse - Socialism. Socialism never changes.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/w...inside-venezuelas-failing-hospitals.html?_r=1

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-floor-doctors-try-operate-without-tools.html

I'd call this whole story self explanatory really.

In a piss poor attempt at eliminating a medium-sized black market the government introduced strict new foreign currency laws, effectively banning the exchange of local currency for US dollars, Euros or British Sterling.

This has had a disastrous domino effect on the wider economy, with businesses unable to import and export vital goods and services, the economy has been slowly collapsing.

This has now begun to bite hard into the medical sector, with no ability to import much equipment and other necessities such as drugs Venezuela's hospitals are rapidly becoming a disaster zone.

This is in spite of the fact that the government of Maduro continues to spout out increasingly deluded statements and claims that Venezuela has a great healthcare system and isn't increasingly a bankrupted shithole that has run out of toilet paper, oil, and other basic necessities.
 
Isn't Norway doing fairly well, though?
yeah that's my point. The Nordic model has an inbuilt commitment to free markets and trade (combined with a generous welfare state) while Chavismo is very much a commanding-heights kind of ideology.
 
My point was that most Americans (especially young people) think of Norway as "socialist", which is wrong.

Never intended this to be a big debate. My point was, Chavez and Maduro were/are morons who thought they could just spend all the oil money on free shit for the poor (and Hummers for their cronies) forever. It would be no different even if they said they were capitalist.
 
My point was that most Americans (especially young people) think of Norway as "socialist", which is wrong.

Never intended this to be a big debate. My point was, Chavez and Maduro were/are morons who thought they could just spend all the oil money on free shit for the poor (and Hummers for their cronies) forever. It would be no different even if they said they were capitalist.

This is why socialism looks really good on paper, but never works out in reality. The human element and corruption skew the goals from true equality to just throwing money around for your and your cronies. It just creates a massive chasm in the haves vs. the have-nots.
 
This is why socialism looks really good on paper, but never works out in reality. The human element and corruption skew the goals from true equality to just throwing money around for your and your cronies. It just creates a massive chasm in the haves vs. the have-nots.

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My point was, Chavez and Maduro were/are morons who thought they could just spend all the oil money on free shit for the poor (and Hummers for their cronies) forever. It would be no different even if they said they were capitalist.
The argument is that it is indeed different in capitalism. The argument is that this is an endemic problem with communism or socialism.
 
Socialism does not mean "free shit from the goverment"
I understand you're getting upset with us, but know this... Most of us agree that Marxist concepts like communism and socialism aren't all that great. Please calm down and try not to overexaggerate on this so much, OK?
 
I understand you're getting upset with us, but know this... Most of us agree that Marxist concepts like communism and socialism aren't all that great. Please calm down and try not to overexaggerate on this so much, OK?

I ain't mad. I've just heard this a million times before.

(I've even said it)

My point is, Venezuela tried and Venezuela failed spectacularly. Easier to blow the trains up than to make them run on time.
 
The issue is that a lot of Americans get mixed up with the concept of social democracies in which both business and society admit that the government can do certain things better. (Healthcare, defence, law and order, welfare systems etc) This is usually achieved via a simple, unified system that can grow increasingly complicated.

Norway, of course, runs the sovereign wealth fund (basically a magic money tree) by using the profits from oil to invest into the wider market in order to reap the benefits of said investments to fund things. This is perhaps the most famous instance of a government investing into the wider world economy and they reap the benefits to the point the Norwegian Fund is now making more than the Oil it was originally based off of.

This is really what Venezuela should've done had it not been for the Chavizmos all running around getting their dicks wet and pretending to be the next revolutionaries they'd be sitting pretty with a large cushion of money to fall back on.
 
How Bad Off Is Oil-Rich Venezuela? It’s Buying U.S. Oil
EL FURRIAL, Venezuela — One oil rig was idle for weeks because a single piece of equipment was missing. Another was attacked by armed gangs who made off with all they could carry. Many oil workers say they are paid so little that they barely eat and have to keep watch over one another in case they faint while high up on the rigs.

Venezuela’s petroleum industry, whose vast revenues once fueled the country’s Socialist-inspired revolution, underwriting everything from housing to education, isspiraling into disarray.

To add insult to injury, the Venezuelan government has been forced to turn to its nemesis, the United States, for help.

“You call them the empire,” said Luis Centeno, a union leader for the oil workers, referring to what government officials call the United States, “and yet you’re buying their oil.”

The declining oil industry is perhaps the most urgent chapter ofVenezuela’s economic crisis. Oil accounts for half of the Venezuelan government’s revenues, what former President Hugo Chávez once called an “instrument of national development.” The state oil company poured its profits, more than $250 billion in all from 2001 to 2015, into the country’s social programs, including food imports.


The condition of Venezuela’s state oil company has international oil traders concerned that its collapse could jolt an otherwise oversupplied global market. They note that when labor strife brought nearly all production in Venezuela to a halt for several weeks at the end of 2002 and in early 2003, global prices jumped more than 30 percent, marking the first in a series of international crises that ushered in a decade of climbing oil prices.

Venezuela accounts for less of the international oil market today, but its exports still make up roughly 2 percent of the world’s output. That means that a serious decline in Venezuelan exports, especially if accompanied by a crisis in Nigeria or Iraq, could tighten the market enough to send oil prices climbing again.


Venezuelans marched this month in protest against the Socialist government and the condition of their country.
MERIDITH KOHUT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES
“A collapse in Venezuela would be an accelerator for oil prices; it would be a total shock,” said Helima Croft, the chief commodity strategist for Royal Bank of Canada. “This country is literally imploding.”

Right now, she added, “There is no oil producer that is falling apart as fast as or as dramatically as Venezuela.”

Neither PDVSA nor its American subsidiary Citgo agreed to requests for interviews.

The challenges ahead are ever-present here in the vast oil fields of El Furrial, in northeastern Venezuela. Beneath the flat, grassy expanses lies the very grade of oil that Venezuela must now import to blend with its large reserves of heavy oil to ship them abroad.

At its peak, El Furrial alone produced 453,000 barrels a day, equivalent to about 80 percent of the national production of Ecuador. But in 2009, Mr. Chávez nationalized Wilpro, an American consortium that handled the complex natural gas injection at the site designed to coax more oil out of the ground. Production has declined by more than half.

Workers at El Furrial today tell a story of decline and mismanagement. There is not even enough drilling mud — the most basic fluid required to keep drill bits cool and well bores clear — to keep all of the rigs running.

At one PDVSA well pad here, China National Petroleum Corporation now fills the gap left by Wilpro. But the site had not been operating for several weeks because PDVSA had not delivered a vital piece of equipment that suspends tubing over the well.

Once completed, the well might produce 3,500 barrels of oil per day, but it was not clear when that would be.

“It’s the first time we’ve ever gone three weeks waiting this way,” said Nelson Ruiz, a manager. “Normally we would get the project going after one signature, and the drill would be in the ground.”

But it is the issue of food that is demoralizing the workers the most.

Workers at one production site described how they eat so little food now, they watch out for their co-workers in case they faint. Claudio Lezama, who has spent the past eight years at the site, said he weighed about 200 pounds several years ago. Between his manual labor and being able to afford only one meal a day, he is now 145 pounds.

Sitting in a trailer where workers take their breaks, he said that he worked as a stone mason to afford to feed himself during his time off. A colleague said she had taken to reselling food like yucca, cheese and eggs.


A demonstrator in Caracas held a poster designed to look like a 100-bolivar bill, with “hunger” written on it in Spanish, as the police tried to break up a protest in June.
MERIDITH KOHUT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES
“You’re a black-market seller,” Mr. Lezama said, chiding her for raising prices when food was in short supply in Venezuela.

In a complaint filed in July by a group of workers at the state oil company, the workers detailed a history of extensive petroleum leaks since 2012 in El Furrial stemming from lack of maintenance and costly infrastructure that was left abandoned.


The complaint said the problems also posed a health risk for surrounding communities.

“All this has been hidden from view, generating multimillion-dollar losses,” the complaint said. “We workers are extremely angry because no one has done anything to put a stop to this disaster.”

These days, some oil workers fear that simply going to work puts them at risk. Carlos Robles, a union leader, spent a recent afternoon talking to supervisors of a well about a number of attacks by armed gangs who robbed that facility and others of laptops, air-conditioning units and metal equipment.

It was getting to be 6 p.m., the time that workers warned that the gangs begin to prowl; the streets of El Furrial were empty, looking as if a curfew were in place.

“The only thing between us and being robbed is God and the Virgin,” said Juan Díaz, a supervisor at the site, as his shift continued into the night.

International service companies like Halliburton and Schlumberger are scaling back their operations as Venezuela’s state oil company struggles to pay its debts to them — as much as $25 billion — with a flurry of bonds and promissory notes.

And as the production from El Furrial and other fields plummets, the state oil company has to lean ever more heavily on Citgo, which is being forced to leverage to the hilt.

Last year, Citgo borrowed $2.5 billion to keep PDVSA afloat. And now it plans to borrow an additional $800 million to update a refinery on the island of Aruba to produce synthetic light oil, according to executives who have been briefed on the plans.

Mr. Centeno, the union leader, said Venezuela’s state oil company had become so strapped that it had stopped providing its workers with new boots, helmets and gloves.

“PDVSA is on the floor now,” he said.
:story:
Oh thank god we kicked the socialistas out
 
The issue is that a lot of Americans get mixed up with the concept of social democracies in which both business and society admit that the government can do certain things better. (Healthcare, defence, law and order, welfare systems etc) This is usually achieved via a simple, unified system that can grow increasingly complicated.

Norway, of course, runs the sovereign wealth fund (basically a magic money tree) by using the profits from oil to invest into the wider market in order to reap the benefits of said investments to fund things. This is perhaps the most famous instance of a government investing into the wider world economy and they reap the benefits to the point the Norwegian Fund is now making more than the Oil it was originally based off of.

This is really what Venezuela should've done had it not been for the Chavizmos all running around getting their dicks wet and pretending to be the next revolutionaries they'd be sitting pretty with a large cushion of money to fall back on.
Scandinavia has a number of capitalist policies significantly freer than those of the US. Rather than a government-imposed minimum wage, Sweeden decides it via collective bargaining between unions and employers in each industry at the local level. Governments give vouchers for accredited private schools, and some European social democracies even enshrine school choice in their constitutions. The US locks people's families up for refusing to go to their awful schools, we even lock up mothers of sick honor-rollers for taking too many sick days.

Considering we stand a good chance of electing an enthusiastic anti-free-trader who openly supports gunning down non-violent student protesters; considering his opponent is a lifelong proponent of big government and authoritarianism herself; considering our skills with combining the worst elements of big government with the most heartless aspects of capitalism while moving farther still from the benefits of both: the US has no right to boast of our capitalist bona fides.

We're less free by the day, and it's not dark yet.
 
The US locks people's families up for refusing to go to their awful schools, we even lock up mothers of sick honor-rollers for taking too many sick days.

Considering we stand a good chance of electing an enthusiastic anti-free-trader who openly supports gunning down non-violent student protesters; considering his opponent is a lifelong proponent of big government and authoritarianism herself; considering our skills with combining the worst elements of big government with the most heartless aspects of capitalism while moving farther still from the benefits of both: the US has no right to boast of our capitalist bona fides.

We're less free by the day, and it's not dark yet.

God, reading news like that makes me MAD. And that's besides seeing Venezuela fall like this...

This is why the US needs to collapse eventually, like Venezuela is - we Americans can not live like this, nor should we. FACT. I don't care what it takes - we need real change, and that comes from revolt & violence against those who deserve it for ruining what could have been beneficial things to society, instead of things to scorn and give the middle finger at, like you've successfully pointed out here.
 
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