Venezuela's collapse - Socialism. Socialism never changes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/w...inside-venezuelas-failing-hospitals.html?_r=1

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-floor-doctors-try-operate-without-tools.html

I'd call this whole story self explanatory really.

In a piss poor attempt at eliminating a medium-sized black market the government introduced strict new foreign currency laws, effectively banning the exchange of local currency for US dollars, Euros or British Sterling.

This has had a disastrous domino effect on the wider economy, with businesses unable to import and export vital goods and services, the economy has been slowly collapsing.

This has now begun to bite hard into the medical sector, with no ability to import much equipment and other necessities such as drugs Venezuela's hospitals are rapidly becoming a disaster zone.

This is in spite of the fact that the government of Maduro continues to spout out increasingly deluded statements and claims that Venezuela has a great healthcare system and isn't increasingly a bankrupted shithole that has run out of toilet paper, oil, and other basic necessities.

 

[RJ MacReady]

Socialism means "the democratic control of the means of production by the working class", which didn't happen in Venezuela until after Chavez died and even then it's barely there to begin with.

Correct, it happened. Therefore it's socialism. And it fucking sucks. Am I missing anything here? Having "a stock market" or private property doesn't preclude socialism or really any Marxist economic theory that's ever been attempted in history.

E: Also, the idea that countries like Sweden or Norway are Marxist socialist economies in disguise is retarded. They're both free market capitalist economies. Venezuela is a command economy. Having social security doesn't mean a country is socialist.

 

[StarvingAutist]

Correct, it happened. Therefore it's socialism. And it fucking sucks. Am I missing anything here? Having "a stock market" or private property doesn't preclude socialism or really any Marxist economic theory that's ever been attempted in history.

E: Also, the idea that countries like Sweden or Norway are Marxist socialist economies in disguise is exceptional. They're both free market capitalist economies. Venezuela is a command economy. Having social security doesn't mean a country is socialist.

It's not very good socialism, is what I am saying.

I'm an American, where the defintion of socialism are either "evil dictatorship", "taxes", or "when governments do stuff". Which is why almost everyone over here thinks that Sweden is socialist (even among people who should know better - looking the fuck at you Cenk Ugyur)

 

[XYZpdq]

It's not very good socialism, is what I am saying.

I'm an American, where the defintion of socialism are either "evil dictatorship", "taxes", or "when governments do stuff". Which is why almost everyone over here thinks that Sweden is socialist (even among people who should know better - looking the fuck at you Cenk Ugyur)

Marx isn't going to put out for you. You can stop white knighting him.

 

[AnOminous]

Marx isn't going to put out for you. You can stop white knighting him.

I've personally banged Marx and he gets high marx on my bedpost.

 

[Cubanodun]

at one point he told me that there's a curfew and a government police force guns down anyone who's out past a certain time

Lol no, there was a national curfew for Bikers (because cars are to expensive people buy bikes that are cheap and made here) after 10 pm but that was eliminated because the police and the criminal bands and "colectives" could not operate at night

he also told me that the referendum has basically been suspended indefinitely

Is not suspended, is technically in a legal limbo because we are awaiting that the stupid CNE give the dates for the recollection of the 20% of signatures required to activate the referendum, everyone know the CNE is pro maduro and are doing the impossible just to gain some time

They still have a stock market

JAJAJAJAJA #no

there is still private property

AJAJAJAJAJAJA HELL NO, of course it exist but if you made someone in the government angry or is casual friday boom is gone

which didn't happen in Venezuela until after Chavez died and even then it's barely there to begin with

Dude we were one of the most prosperous economy in the 4th republic, what are you talking about ?

One step closer to civil war. Allegedly one million plus people marched through Caracas today in support of the opposition, but Maduro claims it was less than one million. Chavistas also marched in large numbers in counter-rallies in the capital.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37243191

According to numbers of the AD (Accion Democratica) HQ of my state we almost mobilize 3 millions but the government was a super bitch and blocked ANY way to get to caracas, even the airport was blocked, helicopters? blocked even drones, they were so coward that they used trucks to block the tunnels and highways that leaded to Caracas and made threats against bus drivers , if you dare to get people to caracas they would destroy your bus, no question asked

Chavistas also marched? NEIN the march was full of Military personnel and people that only went to buy food in a open air market that maduro putted to get people to go, the result was this

People just went to get cheap food and leaved, it was super hilarious

Instead of just ignoring everything in very lolcow fashion and just continue to be a sperg they could not admit that the march was a farse so instead of that they create a story where they came as heroes because "they prevented a massacre" saying stupid things that they destroyed a terrorist camp at 500 m of the presidential palace wow amazing praise the heroes then what is the problem?

the fucking idiot got the place wrong in the map and the weapons are standard military equipment of the Venezuelan army, not even the hardline chaviztas believed that stupid story (if we count there has been like 5000 coup d etat prevented aka is fake)

Fast forward today, maduro try desperately to get the people that still has, he goes to Nueva esparta a island state that WAS know as a chavizta state (they lost that place in december) and in his infinite wisdom he try to get in contact with the people by go in a walk and talk to his loyal subjects what could possibly go wrong?

Everything

He was so enraged that even punched a couple of protesters

This has been a bad week for him

 

[StarvingAutist]

Dude we were one of the most prosperous economy in the 4th republic, what are you talking about ?

I am explaining why the economy of the fifth republic isn't socialist in the sense that the working class owns the means of production. It's just welfare capitalism on steroids: the means of production are owned by the state.

 

[Ponderous Pillock]

I kind of get what @StarvingAutist is banging on about. Really, Co-operative societies are the closest thing we'll get to socialism applied to our economy by sheer dint of it being in the naked self interest of the workers for the company to be a success.

Hilariously, this concept predates Socialism by the best part of a century and has many successes to its name. The biggest names are posh shops like John Lewis, still owned by the staff to this day.

Venezuela is the usual application of socialism, but the shit excuse of "There has never been a socialist country" is complete crap. We've seen its attempted application on numerous occassions.

Every last one has failed miserably.

 

[AnOminous]

I am such a fucking Commie that I used to approve of Chavez.

I am completely able to realize how obviously stupid I was, in retrospect, looking at this long term ongoing disaster that has resulted from Chavez-ism.

ETA: look back to page 1 of this thread to see what a moronic commie fruitcake I was even then.

 

[Rou]

I kind of get what @StarvingAutist is banging on about. Really, Co-operative societies are the closest thing we'll get to socialism applied to our economy by sheer dint of it being in the naked self interest of the workers for the company to be a success.

Hilariously, this concept predates Socialism by the best part of a century and has many successes to its name. The biggest names are posh shops like John Lewis, still owned by the staff to this day.

Venezuela is the usual application of socialism, but the shit excuse of "There has never been a socialist country" is complete crap. We've seen its attempted application on numerous occassions.

Every last one has failed miserably.

I wouldn't call any state a pure "socialist" state. Everyone takes a bit out of everything. Venezuela's collapse comes from incompetence and corruption, not socialism.

 

[DuskEngine]

There are plenty of shithole command economies that don't put on socialist airs, like Egypt for example.

 

[AnOminous]

I wouldn't call any state a pure "socialist" state. Everyone takes a bit out of everything. Venezuela's collapse comes from incompetence and corruption, not socialism.

I bet you would have proudly called Venezuela socialist when it seemed that this nonsense was actually succeeding.

I wouldn't call any state a pure "socialist" state. Everyone takes a bit out of everything. Venezuela's collapse comes from incompetence and corruption, not socialism.

Have you ever considered that incompetence and corruption are literally built into socialism?

There are plenty of shithole command economies that don't put on socialist airs, like Egypt for example.

Nobody wants to live in Egypt.

 

[LulzKiller]

I am such a fucking Commie that I used to approve of Chavez.

I am completely able to realize how obviously stupid I was, in retrospect, looking at this long term ongoing disaster that has resulted from Chavez-ism.

ETA: look back to page 1 of this thread to see what a moronic commie fruitcake I was even then.

It helps that Chavez was a better political operator than Maduro ever was.

 

[Rou]

I bet you would have proudly called Venezuela socialist when it seemed that this nonsense was actually succeeding.



Have you ever considered that incompetence and corruption are literally built into socialism?



Nobody wants to live in Egypt.

I wouldn't say so, or Scandinavia would be just as bad. Norway is also an oil exporter and they're doing fine. Should we call capitalism a failure for 2008?

 

[Ruin]

Should we call capitalism a failure for 2008?

No because America didn't collapse completely in 2008. The reason for this being capitalism has redundancies built into the system to prevent such an occurrence unlike socialism.

 

[Rou]

No because America didn't collapse completely in 2008. The reason for this being capitalism has redundancies built into the system to prevent such an occurrence unlike socialism.

Redundancies built in due to competence, not capitalism. Don't forget The Great Depression, either.

 

[Ruin]

Redundancies built in due to competence, not capitalism. Don't forget The Great Depression, either.

Which still didn't lead to total collapse.

 

[Rou]

Which still didn't lead to total collapse.

Venezuela is a special circumstance though. Again, Norway isn't collapsing either. They're also a major oil exporter.

 

[AnOminous]

It helps that Chavez was a better political operator than Maduro ever was.

Agreed, but that's why this catastrophe was put off until after he died.

Let's just face facts. It is actually socialism as a state policy that led to this fucking disaster.

 

[DuskEngine]

Norway is a social democratic mixed economy, not a revolutionary socialist state that subscribes to an ideology with its own cult of personality.

 

[AnOminous]

Norway is a social democratic mixed economy, not a revolutionary socialist state that subscribes to an ideology with its own cult of personality.

Isn't Norway doing fairly well, though?