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I don't think a bunch of dweebs codifying things that occur in fiction is responsible for media sucking. Rather, I think media sucking is from the hubris of the mediocre and trend-following that's endemic of markets. Granted, they're annoying, but not influential.

One good example would be DC's movies just being kind of bad in general, because they were trying to ape Marvel, but whenever someone apes something 9 times out of 10 they miss a core element that made it successful in the first place. With the DC v Marvel example, DC lacks both the quality and the set up that Marvel benefits from. Iron Man was released in 08 and Avengers was released in '12, so that's 4 years and like 5(?) movies to get the characters introduced and ready for team up. Man of Steel was released in 2013, and then out of nowhere Batman v Superman gets released 3 years later, with some set up for Wonder Woman going directly into Justice League where we are introduced to characters with either literally no set up or set up in a TV series most people probably don't watch. So instead of introducing the new Batman before Batman v Superman and giving everyone else their own movies to introduce them and set them up, they basically jump straight into a smaller crossover with two new figures and one figure that was introduced 3 years ago to make a shortcut into a bigger crossover.

And look at how good Joker turned out, a film completely independent of this entire mess. Sure, it's plopping the Joker into a Scorsese movie, but that core theme of a lonely guy being pressed down on by the system is a very strong theme that people appreciate, and everyone involved did well at their roles, so you get a good movie out of a very basic concept over a corporate system failing to recreate a more complex one.
 
The obsession with finding patterns is part of the human condition, so it was rigged from the start.
 
I’ll admit that TVtropes is a guilty pleasure of mine. Maybe it’s just my specific strain of autism, but I think there’s some good things to it. It’s the people who treat it as gospel that ruin things.
Compare Lily Orchard to OSP’s Red. Lily is an insane autist who basically writes things with TVtropes in mind and uses it as a benchmark for criticism while not actually explaining themselves. Red takes the time to analyze the tropes themselves, how and why they are there, and provide examples of both poor usage and good usage.
That being said, I only read the actual pages, not the forums, so it could be much worse than at first glance.
 
CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:
I’ll admit that TVtropes is a guilty pleasure of mine. Maybe it’s just my specific strain of autism, but I think there’s some good things to it. It’s the people who treat it as gospel that ruin things.
Compare Lily Orchard to OSP’s Red. Lily is an insane autist who basically writes things with TVtropes in mind and uses it as a benchmark for criticism while not actually explaining themselves. Red takes the time to analyze the tropes themselves, how and why they are there, and provide examples of both poor usage and good usage.
That being said, I only read the actual pages, not the forums, so it could be much worse than at first glance.
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Agreed. In addition, Red might be an autist- I mean asexual (demisexual?), but she rarely brings up her non-sexuality in her videos. TVTropes (and likely Lily), on the other hand, can’t stop talking about gay shit, to the point where there are several “tropes” listed for it.
 
Gingervitis said:
Agreed. In addition, Red might be an autist- I mean asexual (demisexual?), but she rarely brings up her non-sexuality in her videos. TVTropes (and likely Lily), on the other hand, can’t stop talking about gay shit, to the point where there are several “tropes” listed for it.
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Red seems much more professional than other people who do that kind of stuff, especially with people like Lily Orchard. I remember her saying she was asexual in an interview, but also saying it’s not a thing that gets brought up much. I can respect that, treating videos as a job.
 
TV Tropes actually helped me improve my writing by pointing out all of these common clichés and how they've been handled across different mediums. It's quite fascinating in how universal these narrative tools are, but different cultures interpret them in ways that might not have crossed your mind. It got me to think a little outside of the box as I outline a plot.

But obviously I think differently from other people. The problem with TV Tropes is that regular visitors/aspiring authors tend to take it at face-value, they don't try to delve deep into it--Civilian above me gave a specific example that is one out of many. "TV Tropes Ruined My Life" is funny out-of-context (especially in relation to what @wtfNeedSignUp is trying to say), but it's also because there's rabbit holes connecting these tropes together, and following them is you trying to make sense of these things while losing track of time and track of where you started. It's actually pretty fun when you let yourself go like that.

I used to think it's embarrassing that so many review channels started using "tropes" in casual discussion, but it's been an actual word since the 1500s (and now I'm wondering why it was never used in my vocabulary tests...). "Cliché" just tends to roll of the tongue a little better for some reason. Still, when you keep in mind that "Tropes Are Tools", you just tend to forget what kind of cliché you're writing about or coming across in media, and that's when you enjoy things better. The more people realize this, the more I think media will start to feel natural again.
 
Kari Kamiya said:
I used to think it's embarrassing that so many review channels started using "tropes" in casual discussion, but it's been an actual word since the 1500s (and now I'm wondering why it was never used in my vocabulary tests...). "Cliché" just tends to roll of the tongue a little better for some reason. Still, when you keep in mind that "Tropes Are Tools", you just tend to forget what kind of cliché you're writing about or coming across in media, and that's when you enjoy things better. The more people realize this, the more I think media will start to feel natural again.
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The use of it to mean a recurrent theme or motif is fairly recent. I assume Fast Eddie got it into his vocabulary somehow, maybe from academic criticism, and just thought it sounded better than cliche, which it does. I'd seen it in literary criticism fairly often.
 
From the GTA III Characters page:
myth.png

you know, you could've just left it without making any other bulletpoints
 
Syaoran Li said:
I'd say TV Tropes is more of a symptom rather than the main problem with modern pop culture.

I think that Joss Whedon's meteoric rise in popularity helped exacerbate this problem, but at the same time, he was not the cause of it. He was merely one of the more visibly influential figures in a wider trend of trying to make everything all self-aware, insincere, ironic, or snarky.

The only one of these postmodern pop culture curators I can respect on any level is Quentin Tarantino, since for all his own flaws, he genuinely enjoys the tropes and genres of the media he consumes and uses as inspiration.

Really, Tarantino's reference-laden work is often done more as a loving homage than as some form of pretentious and "above it all" ironic snark like in Whedon's work.

Fittingly, TV Tropes was founded by a hardcore Joss Whedon fanboy.
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We live with a culture of critique. It's no longer chic to hearken back to tradition or the kind of epic narratives that made even recent older movie genres (such as Westerns, or the Space Opera) so resonant.
 
ZehnBoat said:
blaming tv tropes is like blaming a dictionary
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A dictionary is only as good as its editorial team, which we can level blame against if they are being partisan, being inordinately interested in ephemeral subculture lingo, having mistaken references, inserting their sexual fetishes in the work (say, if the editor defines spectacles as a visual aid which many people find sexually arousing), and a dozen other things we regularly blame tropers for.
 
tvtropes.org

Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

tvtropes.org tvtropes.org

some more politisperging

Choice excerpts

Has anyone started to notice how... popular Japanese media is among the alt-right fandom?

I've been noticing this in the past few months with how the usual suspects blame SJWs for comics failing and pointing out that an increased focus on diversity is why people prefer manga. As opposed to other factors like manga having a better distribution model, more or less being the creative vision of one person, not being interrupted by company-wide events and having an ending.

Or how they respect Japan for continuing to produce content that features a great deal male-targetted fanservice like Bayonetta, Dead Or Alive and various issekai or harem anime. Hell, I've actually seen a few comments that fear Japan has "caught the SJW" infestation due to Jill Valentine and Tifa Lockhart getting Tamer and Chaster redesigns in the [RE3 and FF7 remakes.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that all Japanese media has stuff that is naturally appealing to the alt-right (I've seen even liberal people be fans of characters like Bayonetta in spite of or even because of the over-the-top sexualization). I'd argue that it's more a case of Misaimed Fandom in a lot of cases, maybe even most of them. Although, I can't also help but notice that shonen tends to have considerably bigger problems with women and racial minorities than western superhero comics.


One of the things I used to believe in high school was fully the "Nerd=Good, Jock=Bad" myth and that the nerds were more progressive and enlightened. One thing these past 20 years have shown is that a lot of simmering vile anger, misogyny, and jealousy was just underneath the surface of their persecution complex.


Nerd culture is all kinds of fucked up. That's what happens when a culture is rooted in an adolescent persecution complex.

Before they completely dropped the ball, I really liked Disney's re-imagining of the Empire as they stated that instead of being more secure like in The Thrawn Trilogy, it's stated that the Empire has a massive crime problem due to systematic corruption, it's economy was in tatters due to looting thousands of worlds of resources as well as use of slaves, and the corporations were superpowerful.


Alt-Right isn't obsessed with anime exclusively, they also loves video games, comics and form fandoms around certain movies and cartoons. Just look at the most recent controvesies like Tifa's boobs and the fact that Alt Right obsesses all over Sonic The Hedgehog movie now (just look at all "get woke go broke" videos on Youtube, where assholes celebrrate movie's success, comparing it to less succesful Birds of Prey movie as a prove that "SJW losing").

Also, the constant whining about Captain Marvel movie is thing to behold to be honest, as it still going nowdays, with many idiots still talking about how the movie is "feminist propaganda" and "Captain Marvel is the real villain".

Nah, Wokeness has a market, Alt Right rage isn't a real market. See how the films aimed explicitly at that demographic failed.

I think the Alt Right is pretty in a Unwinnable by Design situation. They are a mix between reactionaries and angry conservatives in a society whose core is the idea of Social Progress. They will win some short term victories (ie. Trump) and then those would be followed by even biggest opossition.

My best part is that their philosophical hero is Rene Guenon, a traditionalist that ended up leaving the "Western culture" and converted.to Islam pretty much because he realized that a serious traditionalist movement in the West is impossible

Hey, wanna know what Richard C. Meyer and Grant Morrison have in common? Apparently, they both think that feminine men are boring and that black men are and should be depicted as walking tanks of testosterone.

I'm not kidding. Just read this newsrma interview where Morrison explains the other reason he made Steve a black guy in his Wonder Woman: Earth One book.



Morrison probably thought he was being progressive here but he doesn't realize he's pandering to the very mindset that created and fuels movements like Comicsgate.


Once again, I have to wonder why all of the 'go woke get broke' people are apparently so concerned about commercial viability all of a sudden. I thought the usual reaction from a rabid fan when the object of their admiration decides to make a change to appeal to a wider audience was to accuse it of 'selling out'. I don't understand why they don't do it here - I mean, it'd make more sense because a lot of these movies have, in fact, done pretty well in terms of money, and it'd service the whole underdog narrative they like to foster about themselves - it seems so obvious to go the 'defenders of artistic integrity in the face of political correctness' route, or some bollocks like that. But no, instead they go for the profitability angle, implying that all movies (and, by extension, pretty much any creative endeavour) should exclusively focus on making money above all else. Like, I'm genuinely confused about the logic here. I never took fandom reactionaries as especially rabid about economic concerns.

Is it solely because 'go woke get broke' rhymes and this makes a better meme statement? I guess 'go PC become art-free' doesn't roll off the tongue so well. :V
 
Notgoodwithusernames said:
tvtropes.org

Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

tvtropes.org tvtropes.org

some more politisperging

Choice excerpts

Has anyone started to notice how... popular Japanese media is among the alt-right fandom?

I've been noticing this in the past few months with how the usual suspects blame SJWs for comics failing and pointing out that an increased focus on diversity is why people prefer manga. As opposed to other factors like manga having a better distribution model, more or less being the creative vision of one person, not being interrupted by company-wide events and having an ending.

Or how they respect Japan for continuing to produce content that features a great deal male-targetted fanservice like Bayonetta, Dead Or Alive and various issekai or harem anime. Hell, I've actually seen a few comments that fear Japan has "caught the SJW" infestation due to Jill Valentine and Tifa Lockhart getting Tamer and Chaster redesigns in the [RE3 and FF7 remakes.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that all Japanese media has stuff that is naturally appealing to the alt-right (I've seen even liberal people be fans of characters like Bayonetta in spite of or even because of the over-the-top sexualization). I'd argue that it's more a case of Misaimed Fandom in a lot of cases, maybe even most of them. Although, I can't also help but notice that shonen tends to have considerably bigger problems with women and racial minorities than western superhero comics.


One of the things I used to believe in high school was fully the "Nerd=Good, Jock=Bad" myth and that the nerds were more progressive and enlightened. One thing these past 20 years have shown is that a lot of simmering vile anger, misogyny, and jealousy was just underneath the surface of their persecution complex.


Nerd culture is all kinds of fucked up. That's what happens when a culture is rooted in an adolescent persecution complex.

Before they completely dropped the ball, I really liked Disney's re-imagining of the Empire as they stated that instead of being more secure like in The Thrawn Trilogy, it's stated that the Empire has a massive crime problem due to systematic corruption, it's economy was in tatters due to looting thousands of worlds of resources as well as use of slaves, and the corporations were superpowerful.


Alt-Right isn't obsessed with anime exclusively, they also loves video games, comics and form fandoms around certain movies and cartoons. Just look at the most recent controvesies like Tifa's boobs and the fact that Alt Right obsesses all over Sonic The Hedgehog movie now (just look at all "get woke go broke" videos on Youtube, where assholes celebrrate movie's success, comparing it to less succesful Birds of Prey movie as a prove that "SJW losing").

Also, the constant whining about Captain Marvel movie is thing to behold to be honest, as it still going nowdays, with many idiots still talking about how the movie is "feminist propaganda" and "Captain Marvel is the real villain".

Nah, Wokeness has a market, Alt Right rage isn't a real market. See how the films aimed explicitly at that demographic failed.

I think the Alt Right is pretty in a Unwinnable by Design situation. They are a mix between reactionaries and angry conservatives in a society whose core is the idea of Social Progress. They will win some short term victories (ie. Trump) and then those would be followed by even biggest opossition.

My best part is that their philosophical hero is Rene Guenon, a traditionalist that ended up leaving the "Western culture" and converted.to Islam pretty much because he realized that a serious traditionalist movement in the West is impossible

Hey, wanna know what Richard C. Meyer and Grant Morrison have in common? Apparently, they both think that feminine men are boring and that black men are and should be depicted as walking tanks of testosterone.

I'm not kidding. Just read this newsrma interview where Morrison explains the other reason he made Steve a black guy in his Wonder Woman: Earth One book.



Morrison probably thought he was being progressive here but he doesn't realize he's pandering to the very mindset that created and fuels movements like Comicsgate.


Once again, I have to wonder why all of the 'go woke get broke' people are apparently so concerned about commercial viability all of a sudden. I thought the usual reaction from a rabid fan when the object of their admiration decides to make a change to appeal to a wider audience was to accuse it of 'selling out'. I don't understand why they don't do it here - I mean, it'd make more sense because a lot of these movies have, in fact, done pretty well in terms of money, and it'd service the whole underdog narrative they like to foster about themselves - it seems so obvious to go the 'defenders of artistic integrity in the face of political correctness' route, or some bollocks like that. But no, instead they go for the profitability angle, implying that all movies (and, by extension, pretty much any creative endeavour) should exclusively focus on making money above all else. Like, I'm genuinely confused about the logic here. I never took fandom reactionaries as especially rabid about economic concerns.

Is it solely because 'go woke get broke' rhymes and this makes a better meme statement? I guess 'go PC become art-free' doesn't roll off the tongue so well. :V
Click to expand...
The projection is so easy to see here.
 
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