Turkey shoots down Russian jet fighter.

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Turkey claims the fighter was warned many times that it was violating Turkish airspace, the Russians insist they didn't cross over the border.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983

Considering the Russian air force's habit of turning off transponders and ignoring hails, plus their love of testing the responses of NATO militaries, and Turkey's increasingly hardline Islamism and hatred of Assad, we'll not know whose claim is correct until an independent can investigate.

Either way, this is not good.
 
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AnOminous said:
They're in the right legally. I think they could have let it fucking slide, though.
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I don't think they really could have, Russia likes pushing just to see how far they can push before it becomes a international incident they then back off for a little while then start pressing again as me and @CWCissey said they have been pushing us in the UK since around 2000 within the last week having a Sub on the Surface in british waters, Air teritory incursions etc.

Turkey has warned them for a long time DON'T INVADE OUR AIRSPACE, gave them repeated warnings and finally did't what they said they'd do.
 
"I always feel great respect for Turkey, and today this respect has been further strengthened"
- Mikhail Saakashvili (former president of Georgia during the disastrous 2008 war with Russia and currently serving as governor of Odessa in Ukraine)

So tactful, not trolling the Russians at all. 6/10
 
Turkeys shooting down Russian jet fighters, this is some crazy ass Thanksgiving.

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Techpriest said:
Nope. He really can't. This is basically something he has to push hard on else he undermines his entire stance on NATO. This isn't your standard NK style incident either.

Crimean War II incoming?
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If by this time next year Crimean War II hasn't started, will you revisit your analysis in retrospect?
 
To add to the clusterfuck, Syrian rebels backed by the US have shot at a helicopter sent to search for and recover the pilots. They apparently forced it down by hitting it with a TOW.
 
Jackass RN said:
To add to the clusterfuck, Syrian rebels backed by the US have shot at a helicopter sent to search for and recover the pilots. They apparently forced it down by hitting it with a TOW.
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And hey, that's makes us fucking morons for backing these people.

Keep 'em in! I love Assad just like I loved the Saddam Hussein regime in retrospect. What fine leaders who've been able to keep these primitive nutballs under control. Stop pushing "democracy" in the middle east; they can't fucking handle it. We've learned nothing from the blowback of the Reagan Doctrine.

We should be getting right in bed with Assad like Russia, civil rights be damned. The alternative is far worse. Obama's fucking around during the Arab Spring has only spread ISIS everywhere like a bad cancer operation.
 
The civilised reaction would be putting up their fighter jets and escorting the russian plane. They could have still shot it down if it started bombing things in Turkey.
Remember, it was a single bomber alongside the border, not a flight of them heading into the middle of Turkey.
There was no danger to Turkey's inland bases, people, etc.
Also remember that the plane apparently crashed into Syria. So how was it above Turkey again? Something ain't right there.

The russians are now accusing the turks of buying oil from ISIS. If that turns out to be true, than Putin will have proof that Nato secretly sides with the terrorists.

The same Turkey that is in NATO and wants into the EU. Hungary needs to get out of NATO and out of EU. Fast.
 
Male Idiot said:
The civilised reaction would be putting up their fighter jets and escorting the russian plane. They could have still shot it down if it started bombing things in Turkey.
Remember, it was a single bomber alongside the border, not a flight of them heading into the middle of Turkey.
There was no danger to Turkey's inland bases, people, etc.
Also remember that the plane apparently crashed into Syria. So how was it above Turkey again? Something ain't right there.

The russians are now accusing the turks of buying oil from ISIS. If that turns out to be true, than Putin will have proof that Nato secretly sides with the terrorists.

The same Turkey that is in NATO and wants into the EU. Hungary needs to get out of NATO and out of EU. Fast.
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The danger is that Russia does this sort of shit constantly, they push the issue, they use intimidation, flybyes, violations of air and naval space, etc, in order to push other countries into favorable treaties and economic relationships with them, test boundaries, etc. Turkey simply decided they weren't going to be the next ones on the chopping block. Putin is smarter than people in the west give him credit for, he'll find a way to turn this to his advantage while both making NATO look bad, yet not actually risking getting stuck in with them. The Russian economy might take a further beating in the long term if sanctions increase, which he will again use as political capital.

That said, Russia has a massive weapon against Turkey NATO is utterly powerless to stop. Economic dependence. Russia is the 2nd largest trading partner for Turkey, and accounts for over half of Turkey's natural gas imports. And it's much, much easier to leverage economic forces than military ones in these sort of quasi-Cold War situations.
 
Male Idiot said:
The civilised reaction would be putting up their fighter jets and escorting the russian plane. They could have still shot it down if it started bombing things in Turkey.
Remember, it was a single bomber alongside the border, not a flight of them heading into the middle of Turkey.
There was no danger to Turkey's inland bases, people, etc.
Also remember that the plane apparently crashed into Syria. So how was it above Turkey again? Something ain't right there.
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I don't know if you've ever seen a plane get shot down but it's relatively rare for them to fall directly downwards.
 
millais said:
Bailing out over northern Syria is no picnic either. They're in for a nasty time if they got picked up by the FSA, al-Nusra front, the Kurds, or IS.
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FSA or Kurds would use them as high value bargaining chips most likely, ISIL...not so much.

There really are no Kurds near the Turkish border, though, so their best bet is to be captured by the FSA and used as collateral in some way. ISIL would have a field day burning them alive on camera.
 
This is a retaliation for bombing isis oil depots that turkey buys it.
The fencer violated for a long time of 17 seconds according to RuAF
They just wanted to shot down a ruskie plane.
millais said:
"I always feel great respect for Turkey, and today this respect has been further strengthened"
- Mikhail Saakashvili (former president of Georgia during the disastrous 2008 war with Russia and currently serving as governor of Odessa in Ukraine)
[MEDIA=twitter]669264569148116993[/MEDIA]
So tactful, not trolling the Russians at all. 6/10
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Lol the retard who took Russia head on by blowing up their barracks.
They got raped hard by that war.
 
AN/ALR-56 said:
Lol the exceptional individual who took Russia head on by blowing up their barracks.
They got raped hard by that war.
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The exceptional individual who:
- Fixed the corruption in the police force
- Gave stable electricity to the country
- Created effective government agencies to collect tax, issue identity documents, deal with businesses, etc
- Instituted a system of replacing Russian with English and brought thousands of english teachers to even the poorest provincial schools.
- Brought adjara back under central government rule by running Aslan Abashidze out of the country.
- Built a modern electoral system that gave Georgia its first free elections
- Otherwise turned the country from a failed state to a developing nation.
- Gracefully handed over power in Georgia's first peaceful transition of government since the fall of the USSR.

2008 was a mistake, but its really shitty to consider him a failed president because of it. If you want a summary of what happened:
1. Russia played up ethic divisions in South Ossetia and Abkhazia after the fall of the USSR
2. Russia recognized the rouge provinces as states and put "peacekeeping soldiers" on Georgian soil.
3. South Ossetian military shelled Georgian positions.
4. Russia started sending tanks and shit across the border. (including many patriotic "volunteers". Sound familiar?)
5. Georgian military went in to defend its land.
6. Russia went on an apeshit invasion.

Russians engineers the conflict like it does in every other area near the border. Misha was baited but the situation is really complex. He has every reason to support Turkey though. NATO is the only check against Russian power and Russia has been emboldened by the complete lack of response as it has annexed Crim, fucked up the donbass, and calls for votes to absorb the renegade regions of Georgia in to the Russian Federation. I am sad the plane got shot down, but Russia has been skirting Nato airspace for over a year now. Russia has so many advanced weapons that it doesn't need to fly right up against Turkey's border to attack a bunch of militants. Putin took a risk and 2 Russian servicemen paid the price. Obviously it was high because Russia de-escalated things in record time.
 
Datiko said:
The exceptional individual who:
- Fixed the corruption in the police force
- Gave stable electricity to the country
- Created effective government agencies to collect tax, issue identity documents, deal with businesses, etc
- Instituted a system of replacing Russian with English and brought thousands of english teachers to even the poorest provincial schools.
- Brought adjara back under central government rule by running Aslan Abashidze out of the country.
- Built a modern electoral system that gave Georgia its first free elections
- Otherwise turned the country from a failed state to a developing nation.
- Gracefully handed over power in Georgia's first peaceful transition of government since the fall of the USSR.

2008 was a mistake, but its really shitty to consider him a failed president because of it. If you want a summary of what happened:
1. Russia played up ethic divisions in South Ossetia and Abkhazia after the fall of the USSR
2. Russia recognized the rouge provinces as states and put "peacekeeping soldiers" on Georgian soil.
3. South Ossetian military shelled Georgian positions.
4. Russia started sending tanks and shit across the border. (including many patriotic "volunteers". Sound familiar?)
5. Georgian military went in to defend its land.
6. Russia went on an apeshit invasion.

Russians engineers the conflict like it does in every other area near the border. Misha was baited but the situation is really complex. He has every reason to support Turkey though. NATO is the only check against Russian power and Russia has been emboldened by the complete lack of response as it has annexed Crim, fucked up the donbass, and calls for votes to absorb the renegade regions of Georgia in to the Russian Federation. I am sad the plane got shot down, but Russia has been skirting Nato airspace for over a year now. Russia has so many advanced weapons that it doesn't need to fly right up against Turkey's border to attack a bunch of militants. Putin took a risk and 2 Russian servicemen paid the price. Obviously it was high because Russia de-escalated things in record time.
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If you expect NATO to save your ass,I'm sorry but that is not happening.
Turkey are hypocrites,they constantly invade Greek airspace with their f-16s,illegally invaded and divided a sovereign country,they buy oil from isis and are murdering Kurds.
 
Datiko said:
NATO is the only check against Russian power and Russia has been emboldened by the complete lack of response as it has annexed Crim, fucked up the donbass, and calls for votes to absorb the renegade regions of Georgia in to the Russian Federation. I am sad the plane got shot down, but Russia has been skirting Nato airspace for over a year now. Russia has so many advanced weapons that it doesn't need to fly right up against Turkey's border to attack a bunch of militants. Putin took a risk and 2 Russian servicemen paid the price. Obviously it was high because Russia de-escalated things in record time.
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The problem is it complicates the situation. That's kind of our problem, though, not Turkey's.

The danger of retaliating against Russia when it engages in these provocations is it might erupt into actual war, and that's what Russia hopes you're too afraid of to resist their incursions. The problem is if you let them get away with it you may as well just become a compliant, punked satellite state.
 
AnOminous said:
The problem is it complicates the situation. That's kind of our problem, though, not Turkey's.

The danger of retaliating against Russia when it engages in these provocations is it might erupt into actual war, and that's what Russia hopes you're too afraid of to resist their incursions. The problem is if you let them get away with it you may as well just become a compliant, punked satellite state.
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That is worse than being a satellite state of USA and EU how? Still, better be a satellite state than the target of american or russian bombs.

Still, most worrysome is that the turks buying oil from ISIS may be true.
 
Male Idiot said:
Still, most worrysome is that the turks buying oil from ISIS may be true.
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It's not like they slap an ISIS label on it. It's entirely possible that even we are buying ISIS oil, indirectly or otherwise, despite best efforts to avoid doing so (and the fact any incidental buying is outweighed by actually bombing their oil fields). Oil is a pretty fungible commodity.
 
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