💬 Off-Topic Transgender Legislation and Litigation

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Troonland? The UK isn't called terf island for nothing. We're the proud epicentre of the anti trans movement.

Our own Cass review is cited by American politicians and the law here is that transwomen are men.
The thing missing here is "despite everything".

The UK don't have a president pushing back on this shit with all his might.
We have just endured a procession of truly awful Prime Ministers and any "wins" have been despite them and their lack of courage to do the right thing.
 
The thing missing here is "despite everything".

The UK don't have a president pushing back on this shit with all his might.
We have just endured a procession of truly awful Prime Ministers and any "wins" have been despite them and their lack of courage to do the right thing.
💯 agree.

If any place deserves the port-manteau of troonland it’s Canada.

A nexus of politicians and judicial love fest forcing the love of sucking girldick.
 
The troons rights movement is the result of the gay community becoming too accepting in the late 2000s and 2010s resulting in them (out of pity and guilt tripping) supporting it. The DNC of course picked this up to be contrarian and then astroturfed the fuck out of it and used it as an excuse to put more shit into the fraudulent dump that was USAID.
There was also the professional activist class that needed a new cause because otherwise they would be out of a job - the LGBs won by any imaginable definition of the word, which made them obsolete as far as the NGOs were concerned.
When do we predict that this movement will for the most part cease to get any amount of support from the US government?
First we'd need a lot of politicians backtracking and out of office. Best guesstimate is between 5 to 20 more years.
I think it's less of a timeline and more a series of events: Senior Democrats still have a very poor understanding of how unpopular troons are or how few people view troons as a #1 priority even after Trump's successful "Kamala's for they/them" ad. With that in mind I think they are going to need to have at least one, probably more like two or three, back to back losses in perfectly winnable elections where troons are used as a wedge issue before they start to take the hint. If that happens, plenty of Dems will start throwing troons under the bus in hopes of being a governor/Senator/House Speaker/POTUS.
 
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The thing missing here is "despite everything".

The UK don't have a president pushing back on this shit with all his might.
We have just endured a procession of truly awful Prime Ministers and any "wins" have been despite them and their lack of courage to do the right thing.

For sure none of this is because of our woeful political leadership, but at least they have the sense to know which way the wind blowing and at the very least let the courts and ministers get on with doing the jobs.

Its only eight years since May was proposing self id. We're miles away from that now.

America is enviable in having a leader that is determinedly opposed to transgenderism, but there's much greater institutional pushback than here.
 
Its only eight years since May was proposing self id. We're miles away from that now.
Yes.
That took out the awful Sturgeon woman as well.

It'll be interesting to see if politicians think back on this in the future before imposing the twisted whims of the few on the many.
 
Potentially horrific further context to the Sandie Peggie tribunal.

Throughout the tribunal there's been speculation as to why Jamie Doyle, head of nursing for acute services for NHS Fife, has not been called as a witness despite his senior position and the fact he wrote an email suggesting Sandie Peggie should be reported to the police for a hate crime.

X user Mr Malky has alleged [archive] that Jamie Doyle's partner is the man in this article [archive], Ian Macphail, a nurse who was struck off in 2020 for being in possession of thousands of images of child abuse. It reads like the 13,000 in the headline is a typo, as the article details he was in possession of "more than 1,300" and "a total of 1,374 images, of which 454 were of the most depraved level".

Several people corroborate their relationship in the replies to Mr Malky, but mixed reports on whether they're still together. Malky himself says that two people who work for NHS Fife have told him they are or were partners.

Separately; David Graham, a Labour councillor who was on the board of NHS Fife, was recently found guilty [archive] of sexual offences against a teenage girl.
 
Potentially horrific further context to the Sandie Peggie tribunal.
Another interesting titbit in a long piece in the Times. It looks like Peggie's own MP, an SNP fool by the name of Peter Grant, also refused to help her. That's why she ended up in the office of Neale Hanvey. UK MPs as a rule only help their own constituents and refer anyone else back to their MP. Hanvey must have seen what a useless pile of shit Grant was and instead sent her to Sex Matters.
After her suspension, Peggie approached Neale Hanvey, then an Alba MP, to ask for support. As Peggie lives in Glenrothes, which is outside Hanvey’s former constituency, he referred her to the gender-critical group Sex Matters for help.

The whole article

How attacks on Sandie Peggie’s family are taking their toll​

Outside the tribunal room in which the nurse is taking on NHS Fife and the transgender doctor Beth Upton, the case is being refought each day on social media​

Sandie Peggie has been accused of being homophobic, which has been denied by her daughter, Nicole

Saturday August 02 2025, 5.00pm, The Sunday Times


The public gallery has become populated by a familiar roll-call of faces.

Every day at the Sandie Peggie tribunal, the seating area of the small room in the Dundee tribunal hearing centre is full of committed attendees. Those who are not early or quick enough are relegated to an overflow room to watch proceedings on the small screen.

One face has become more recognisable than most — certainly more than she ever expected to be.

Nicole Peggie, Sandie’s daughter, has been forced by circumstance to defend her mother in an employment tribunal that the nurse brought against her employer NHS Fife and the transgender doctor Beth Upton.

The case stems from an incident on Christmas Eve 2023, when Peggie objected to sharing a women’s changing room at Victoria Hospital with Upton. This led to a heated exchange, after which Upton reported Peggie to senior management. As a result, Peggie was suspended for alleged gross misconduct.

Peggie’s claim cites the Equality Act 2010 and she is alleging sexual harassment and harassment related to her protected beliefs. The 51-year-old nurse was cleared of all misconduct allegations by an NHS Fife disciplinary hearing after an 18-month process, but only after her employment tribunal was already under way. The tribunal was also told of other allegations against Peggie, including claims of homophobia and racism, which her legal team addressed.

The case is being closely watched, particularly in light of a recent Supreme Court ruling on the definition of “woman” under the Equality Act.

In the past two weeks, the legal team for NHS Fife has targeted Peggie’s character. WhatsApp messages from private group chats have been read out, with the suggestion Peggie is racist, Islamophobic and homophobic. One of the most biting suggestions from Jane Russell, the lawyer for NHS Fife and Upton, was that there is a rift between Peggie and her daughter because Nicole is gay.

The pushback was immediate.

Scotland’s employment tribunal system is open to the public and press but proceedings rarely make headlines. One of the extraordinary elements of the Peggie tribunal is how much it is being played out on social media as those close to participants seek to clarify and rebut the day’s proceedings.

So it has been with Nicole Peggie. Her social media timeline is a flood of support for her mother. On the day it was suggested Peggie was disappointed in her daughter, she posted a thorough rebuttal on X, stating: “I’m 25 years old, still live with my parents. They’ve never asked for dig money [rent].

“In summer 2023 I travelled South East Asia. Last year I visited a new country every month. This year I have been to USA twice. All thanks to my mum and dad. Very grateful to have them.”

She continued: “I am more than comfortable knowing I’ll be living with them for a long time. If they really hated me would I be willing to stay?”

Nicole has also repeatedly commented on Facebook in support of her mother. Her Instagram profile is reserved for travel pictures but, everywhere else, she is a vociferous backer. Her partner of four years has also taken to various websites to support the Peggie family.

In February, Nicole was questioned by the tribunal about her mother’s demeanour when she returned home on Christmas Eve after the changing room incident. When questions persisted about their bond, Nicole turned again to social media.

“Jeez do I need to go back under oath to clear this up,” she wrote. “My mum is my best friend, has and always will be. Her only concern is if I’m happy.”

But this speaks to the wider toll that events have taken on the Peggie family.

Peggie’s father died not long before the first stage of the tribunal. He had been ill while she was enduring the stress of being suspended from work and beginning the tribunal proceedings.

Susan Smith, one of the co-founders of the prominent gender-critical group For Women Scotland said: “At a time when her mother and the family should have been able to come together and grieve, they were all having to go and sit in this court in Dundee and have her character torn to shreds.

“Dragging her daughter’s relationship into it was deeply cynical.”

During the February hearings, Peggie was asked to account for anti-Catholic Facebook posts by her husband and answer questions about the fact she supports President Trump.

“And then trying to make her responsible for her husband’s Facebook posts, which were not relevant,” said Smith. “Not only were they not relevant, but also suggesting she had some sort of responsibility for or automatically had to think the same as her husband sounds like something from the 19th century. It’s so archaic. So sexist.”

Smith added: “If I were NHS Fife or somebody sitting there as a lawyer for NHS Fife, of their PR manager I would be saying, ‘What the hell do you think you’re playing at?’ because this didn’t add anything to their case.

“All it did was throw random dirt around about the relationship between a mother and a daughter.”

Smith, who attended the tribunal on several days, said Nicole Peggie was there “pretty much all the time” and clearly supported her mother.

After her suspension, Peggie approached Neale Hanvey, then an Alba MP, to ask for support. As Peggie lives in Glenrothes, which is outside Hanvey’s former constituency, he referred her to the gender-critical group Sex Matters for help.

Hanvey was mentioned in the tribunal, where it was suggested that he had been instrumental in persuading Peggie to instigate legal proceedings.

As with others in the case, he used social media as an outlet to rebut the comments both about his involvement and the suggestion of a rift between Peggie and her daughter.

“As the ‘married gay MP’ mentioned in today’s testimony,” he posted online. “I have never witnessed anything remotely homophobic from the Peggie family, quite the contrary. Warm genuine people, concerned about injustice and people I was honoured to provide all the help I could.”

Hanvey said that moment he met Peggie and her mother was forever etched in his mind. “They appeared in my office as frightened rabbits and the world seemed against them,” he said. “It was abundantly clear to me that Sandie had done nothing wrong and I resolved to do everything I could to help.

“It’s hard to overstate how impressive the courage of Sandie and the support of her family has been as they’ve been buffeted by the international attention and intrusion on their family life. The unavoidable trauma of events such as this changes people irrevocably, but despite the numerous betrayals the Peggie family have also found new friends and a true strength in their families bonds.

“Thank heavens they had each other and an international legion of supporters.”

One WhatsApp message shown to Peggie in the tribunal details her saying to colleagues in a group chat: “Going to be off a while. Rep told me to get a hobby.”

The “rep” in question was her Royal College of Nursing union representative — perhaps indicative of how little professional support she had around her at the time.

While she is now surrounded by support, insiders say the proceedings are taking a toll.

In the daily press photographs taken outside the tribunal, Peggie appears smiling and confident. On the last day of proceedings an honour guard formed outside the building, applauding supporters forming a corridor as Peggie exited the hearing and stepped into the Dundee sunshine.

In June, the nurse visited the Scottish parliament where she met and was pictured with MSPs and with Maya Forstater, the gender-critical activist and tax expert who successfully sued her former employer.

Public reports of the meetings were that Peggie was in a “confident and defiant” mood as she spent time meeting supporters. Privately, however, it is said the nurse is less bolshie about the legal proceedings.

Close supporters said there were times she had been observed quietly shaking while sitting in the hearing and the relentless criticisms of her family are taking a toll.

Joanna Cherry, former SNP MP and prominent gender-critical campaigner, while admitting Peggie’s messages left a little to be desired, said: “Sandie’s character is not on trial.”

She asked: “Who among us would like their personal WhatsApp messages pored over in a courtroom? That is doubtless why Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney and Liz Lloyd [Sturgeon’s former chief of staff] had deleted all of theirs for the first part of the pandemic.

“Those like Sturgeon and her supporters would be the first to support the idea that when a woman complains of harassment, her character should not be on trial.”

The final day of the tribunal was thrown off track after one of the witnesses Peggie’s team had called in her defence, Sandra Ross, failed to appear.

Publicly, Naomi Cunningham, Peggie’s barrister, told the judge only that there had been “developments” overnight. The issue was discussed in an hour-long private session.

Ross had attended the tribunal the previous day and is a member of the group chat in which Peggie posted jokes mocking victims of the Pakistan flooding disaster. She was is understood to have been keen to testify, and her failure to appear remains unexplained.

Some close to the case say the sort of public pressure faced by Peggie has caused alarm to friends and supporters. Now there is nothing for either side to do except wait until a verdict, expected towards the end of the year.

Those involved with the case are left with frustrations about how it was heard and of the response of the court of public opinion.

“The lines that [NHS Fife] were running were really sexist, very regressive,” Susan Smith added. “Which is ironic in a case where they don’t know what a woman is. They know what a woman is when they want to put her in her place.”
 
Article is behind a paywall. :/ but

New Hampshire becomes first state in New England to ban gender-affirming care for minors​

Archive so you can get around the paywall and read it.

LOL Ninja'd - I just ran the archiver to ensure it was fresh. D'oh.

ETA: For those who wish to share articles but said article is behind a paywall, just run it through an archive site - they'll strip the article out from behind said paywall and allow you to read it. It may take a couple minutes to compile if it hasn't already been done by someone before you, but it's worth the effort.
 
Article is behind a paywall. :/ but

New Hampshire becomes first state in New England to ban gender-affirming care for minors​

The people at Vexxed had it archived.
The people bitching about these bills are absolutely braindead. The bill has exceptions baked in, such as specifying that this bans treatments that are for minors seeking gender transition (leading me to believe that intersex minors have a valid medical need and can still access what they need) and that minors that are already receiving transitional care will continue to have it as an option. This is such a room-temperature, compromising push and they still completely reject it.
 
Why do troons think that "paperwork" somehow supersedes reality?

"Filed in Washington, D.C., federal district court, Talbott v. United States, the government’s response refers to the 32 plaintiffs only as “trans-identifying individuals.” It explicitly rejects their genders, stating, “Defendants deny that Plaintiff [Second Lieutenant Nicolas] Talbott is a man. Plaintiff Talbott is a female who identifies as a male.” In one section, the filing even questions whether some plaintiffs served “with distinction."

""It’s difficult for me to understand the defense’s statement that I am a female, which contradicts all of my government documentation, such as my license, passport, social security card, and birth certificate,” Talbott told The Advocate. “The statements in this filing do not align with the promise to treat us (transgender service members) with dignity and respect throughout this process."

BREAKING: DOJ denies existence of transgender people in stunning court filing defending Trump’s military ban
 
Why do troons think that "paperwork" somehow supersedes reality?
1754280979335.webp

But seriously it's the power of delusion.
 
Don't know which thread to post this but U.K public opinion on trans issues from 2020 to 2025. Needless to say that more exposure to trans people hasn't lead to higher acceptance. Left is 2020 and right is now.

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Don't know which thread to post this but U.K public opinion on trans issues from 2020 to 2025. Needless to say that more exposure to trans people hasn't lead to higher acceptance. Left is 2020 and right is now.

View attachment 7735351View attachment 7735350
What's the meaning of "Plurality" and "Majority" in this context? I'm used to 25-30% being a "plurality", and 50%+1 being "majority". Is that just the most common answer they received from that demographic group?
 
What's the meaning of "Plurality" and "Majority" in this context? I'm used to 25-30% being a "plurality", and 50%+1 being "majority". Is that just the most common answer they received from that demographic group?
I would assume its the most common answer they now get from said demographic group. My apologies I found the poll off of this Twitter account.

Screenshot 2025-08-04 112507.webp
 
Don't know which thread to post this but U.K public opinion on trans issues from 2020 to 2025. Needless to say that more exposure to trans people hasn't lead to higher acceptance. Left is 2020 and right is now.

View attachment 7735351View attachment 7735350
Lol. Everyone opposed trans in opposite sex sports before they knew anything about the trans menace and trans activists doubled down on that.
 
What's the meaning of "Plurality" and "Majority" in this context? I'm used to 25-30% being a "plurality", and 50%+1 being "majority". Is that just the most common answer they received from that demographic group?

If 60% of people think troons are revolting perverts, 35% disagree and 5% dont know, then a majority think that troons are revolting perverts.

If 45% of people think troons are revolting perverts, 35% disagree and 20% dont know, then a pluraity think it.

So, not most people, but thats the most common opinion.

So, in short, yes.
 
I’m aware that the Tickle v Giggle court case has recomenced in the Australian Federal Court. As an Australian I also know that privacy is protected. As someone that watched tribunal tweets through the Sandy Peggie case, is there any site that I can use to watch the Sal Grover appeal v Roxy Tickle case.
 
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