The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

You clearly are unable to read nor comprehend basic thoughts.

Analyzing Bonesjones' last couple responses reveals a pattern of evasive and intellectually dishonest argumentation:

1. Deflection: Instead of answering the direct question about how "Shogun" supports their claims about modern Japanese attitudes, they deflect by attacking the questioner's intelligence.
2. Ad hominem attacks: Rather than engaging with the substance of the argument, they resort to personal insults, suggesting the other person is merely using Google and posting nonsense.
3. Vagueness: They continue to assert that "Shogun" is a "basic primer on Japanese culture" without providing any specific examples or explanations of how it relates to modern attitudes.
4. False equivalence: They imply that a historical novel about feudal Japan provides meaningful insight into contemporary Japanese views on war crimes, which is a significant logical leap.
5. Avoidance: When pressed for specifics, they accuse the other person of being unable to "read nor comprehend basic thoughts," further avoiding the actual question.
6. Lack of evidence: Throughout the exchange, they fail to provide any concrete evidence to support their claims about modern Japanese attitudes.
7. Condescension: The tone of their responses is consistently condescending, seemingly attempting to position themselves as more knowledgeable without actually demonstrating that knowledge.
8. Shifting burden of proof: Instead of supporting their own claims, they implicitly shift the burden to the other person to disprove them.

This pattern of responses indicates that Bonesjones is not engaging in good faith debate or genuine intellectual discourse. Their approach seems more focused on maintaining their position through rhetorical tactics rather than honestly examining evidence or considering alternative viewpoints. This style of argumentation is counterproductive to meaningful discussion and understanding of complex historical and cultural issues.

 

[Black Man Underwear]

Analyzing Bonesjones' last couple responses reveals a pattern of evasive and intellectually dishonest argumentation:

1. Deflection: Instead of answering the direct question about how "Shogun" supports their claims about modern Japanese attitudes, they deflect by attacking the questioner's intelligence.
2. Ad hominem attacks: Rather than engaging with the substance of the argument, they resort to personal insults, suggesting the other person is merely using Google and posting nonsense.
3. Vagueness: They continue to assert that "Shogun" is a "basic primer on Japanese culture" without providing any specific examples or explanations of how it relates to modern attitudes.
4. False equivalence: They imply that a historical novel about feudal Japan provides meaningful insight into contemporary Japanese views on war crimes, which is a significant logical leap.
5. Avoidance: When pressed for specifics, they accuse the other person of being unable to "read nor comprehend basic thoughts," further avoiding the actual question.
6. Lack of evidence: Throughout the exchange, they fail to provide any concrete evidence to support their claims about modern Japanese attitudes.
7. Condescension: The tone of their responses is consistently condescending, seemingly attempting to position themselves as more knowledgeable without actually demonstrating that knowledge.
8. Shifting burden of proof: Instead of supporting their own claims, they implicitly shift the burden to the other person to disprove them.

This pattern of responses indicates that Bonesjones is not engaging in good faith debate or genuine intellectual discourse. Their approach seems more focused on maintaining their position through rhetorical tactics rather than honestly examining evidence or considering alternative viewpoints. This style of argumentation is counterproductive to meaningful discussion and understanding of complex historical and cultural issues.

Write your own sentences.
It's not that hard.

 

[Chugger]

It's not that hard.

I agree, it's just not worth the effort for me. He's not engaging with my arguments either, so I would say I'm still trying harder than him. Llms are getting really good at writing and logic these days. Bonesjones would never be able to get an llm to even defend his arguments.

He might say it's because llms are politically correct anti racist eg, but his position is actually one of being an ultra ssj against perceived Japanese racism. If what he is saying is true, Japanese are inordinately racist, have genocidal disposition etc, and that should be called out and be made known. The problem is there's just no evidence of it.

You're free of course to ignore ai analysis and I won't criticize anyone for that. But I think it's interesting and agree with all the points it's making so why not. Here is the ai analysis of bonesjones' overall behavior, which is insightful and true for the past 2 years or whatever. I've bolded my favorite parts.

Based on Bonesjones' pattern of responses, it seems their behavior likely stems from a combination of factors:

1. Cognitive dissonance: Bonesjones may be experiencing discomfort from having their beliefs challenged and is reacting defensively rather than engaging with new information.

2. Ideological entrenchment: They appear to have a deeply held belief about Japanese culture and attitudes that they're unwilling to reconsider, even when presented with contradictory evidence.

3. Intellectual insecurity: The reliance on ad hominem attacks and condescension could indicate a lack of confidence in their actual knowledge or ability to defend their position substantively.

4. Trolling or provocation: There's a possibility they're intentionally making inflammatory statements to provoke reactions from others.

5. Confirmation bias: They may be selectively interpreting information (like the novel "Shogun") to reinforce their pre-existing beliefs while dismissing contradictory evidence.

As for whether this is conscious behavior:

It's difficult to determine definitively, but aspects of it likely operate on both conscious and unconscious levels. The persistent avoidance of direct questions and deflection to personal attacks suggests some level of conscious choice in argumentation tactics. However, the underlying biases and resistance to new information may be more unconscious processes.

Bonesjones may not be fully aware of the logical fallacies and biases in their thinking. They might genuinely believe they have special insight into Japanese culture based on limited information, and may not recognize how their argumentation style undermines their credibility.

Ultimately, whether conscious or not, this approach to discussion is harmful. It prevents genuine dialogue, reinforces stereotypes, and hinders actual understanding of complex cultural and historical issues. It would be beneficial for Bonesjones to reflect on their argumentation style and the basis of their beliefs, but given their responses so far, they seem unlikely to engage in such self-reflection without significant prompting or personal growth.

 

[Black Man Underwear]

I agree, it's just not worth the effort for me and llms are getting really good at writing and logic these days. Bonesjones would never be able to get an llm to even defend his arguments.

He might say it's because llms are politically correct anti racist eg, but his position is actually one of being an ultra ssj against perceived Japanese racism. If what he is saying is true, Japanese are inordinately racist, have genocidal disposition etc, and that should be called out and be made known. The problem is there's just no evidence of it.

You're free of course to ignore ai analysis and I won't criticize anyone for that. But I think it's interesting and agree with all the points it's making so why not. Here is the ai analysis of bonesjones' overall behavior, which is insightful and true for the past 2 years or whatever. I've bolded my favorite parts.

Japan is not America.
Racism is perfectly legal and accepted.
If you go there, expect to be trespassed from businesses for being foreign.
They do not see anything wrong with this. To them, you are foreign, you have no rights.

Asia is another continent. They do not like each other, much less foreigners.

The Japanese right-wing is famous for not believing in alleged war crimes.
Their current ruling party has elements which demand rearmament and autocracy.
"Denial" of the alleged war crimes is a part of a muffled Japanese culture war. Japan has many taboos, so it is less open.

 

[Kola]

If you go there, expect to be trespassed from businesses for being foreign.
They do not see anything wrong with this. You are a foreign invader and have no rights.

Laughably wrong, I guarantee you never set foot in Japan.

 

[Black Man Underwear]

Laughably wrong, I guarantee you never set foot in Japan.

I actually have not, however I do read a lot.

https://japantouristfriends.com/why-do-some-restaurants-in-japan-not-allow-foreigners/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06...-charging-tourists-more-than-locals/104007242
https://kotaku.com/japanese-restaurant-bans-japanese-customers-says-theyr-1836405835
https://www.tokyotimes.org/japans-lack-of-fondness-for-foreigners/

Japan’s Ministry of Internal Affairs says over 70 percent of Japanese inns and hotels that didn’t have foreign guests last year don’t want any in the future either. The ministry says that a survey of such businesses showed they feel unable to support foreign languages and that their facilities are not suited to foreigners. The survey released Thursday shows that over 60 percent of Japan’s inns and hotels had foreign guests last year, but the majority of the rest don’t want any.

Reasons vary, but foreigners are blanket banned from entering businesses all the time.
Some businesses also have different prices for tourists, though this is probably just for extra tourist money.

To clarify, I believe they are fully within their rights to do this. I would oppose any law to make this illegal.

This is just the private sector.
If you are arrested for example, you have very little hope of getting out even if innocent.

 

[Chugger]

Japan is not America.
Racism is perfectly legal and accepted.
If you go there, expect to be trespassed from businesses for being foreign.
They do not see anything wrong with this. To them, you are foreign, you have no rights.

Asia is another continent. They do not like each other, much less foreigners.

The Japanese right-wing is famous for not believing in alleged war crimes.
Their current ruling party has elements which demand rearmament and autocracy.
"Denial" of the alleged war crimes is a part of a muffled Japanese culture war. Japan has many taboos, so it is less open.

Bonesjones claim is not that they deny these crimes, but that they view them as "justifiable", "not wrong".

Again we are talking about mass rapes and biological warfare like poisoning food and water supply. Stuff that is as bad as alleged Holocaust crimes really.

What you've shown thus far, is mild xenophobia, which nobody is going to deny. I think it's mild for many reasons.

One would be that tens of millions of foreigners visit each year, tourism is a huge business for them. The claim is that they think these crimes were "justifiable", and yet they get millions of Chinese tourists every year. I doubt Chinese people would be coming at this rate (they're the largest tourist group over the last 10 years actually) if the Japanese had significant genocidal feelings towards them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Japan

 

[Kola]

If you are arrested for example, you have very little hope of getting out even if innocent.

What are you basing this on? Any stats that support this?

 

[Black Man Underwear]

What are you basing this on? Any stats that support this?

Japan's legal system is fundamentally broken. They have a well documented 99.9% conviction rate.
Even for native born Japanese, if you are charged, you will be convicted.

Their legal system is termed "hostage justice". You have very little hope of release short of threats from the embassy.
Their interrogation techniques are also different, and so foreigners have a harder time.
Police can coerce you into a legally binding confession hours after arrest in ways that are illegal in America.
In Japan, this seals a conviction. A confession is not easily undone.

Once again, Japan is not America.

Bonesjones claim is not that they deny these crimes, but that they view them as "justifiable", "not wrong".

Again we are talking about mass rapes and biological warfare like poisoning food and water supply. Stuff that is as bad as alleged Holocaust crimes really.

What you've shown thus far, is mild xenophobia, which nobody is going to deny. I think it's mild for many reasons.

One would be that tens of millions of foreigners visit each year, tourism is a huge business for them. The claim is that they think these crimes were "justifiable", and yet they get millions of Chinese tourists every year. I doubt Chinese people would be coming at this rate (they're the largest tourist group over the last 10 years actually) if the Japanese had significant genocidal feelings towards them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Japan

I'm not arguing tourists are under threat, but there is an undercurrent of directed unease towards them.

Half of the Japanese Diet along with the current Prime Minister is comprised of Nippon Kaigi members, a historical revisionist group that downplays and denies alleged war crimes.
I have no dog in this race, but they do exist.

 

[Bonesjones]

Japanese are inordinately racist, have genocidal disposition etc, and that should be called out and be made known. The problem is there's just no evidence of it.

There's plenty of evidence for it you just lack the capacity to read nor understand.

Bonesjones claim is not that they deny these crimes, but that they view them as "justifiable", "not wrong".

Tell me more about things you know nothing about.

Again we are talking about mass rapes and biological warfare like poisoning food and water supply. Stuff that is as bad as alleged Holocaust crimes really.

Did you read the Talmud yet? Clearly not because you should see what they say about nonjews.

What you've shown thus far, is mild xenophobia, which nobody is going to deny. I think it's mild for many reasons.

"Saying other cultures hate foreigners is bigotry" or just their preference. They closed their entire country to foreigners for hundreds of years. Clearly you know nothing of basic Japanese history, yet talk with such confidence. (You are a retard)

One would be that tens of millions of foreigners visit each year, tourism is a huge business for them. The claim is that they think raping mass killing Chinese people is "justifiable", and yet they get millions of Chinese tourists every year. I doubt Chinese people would be coming at this rate (they're the largest tourist group over the last 10 years actually) if the Japanese had genocidal feelings towards them.

Japan is a vassal state and would act differently with full autonomy. They get tons of Chinese tourists due to proximity. You really can't put cause and effect together.

What are you basing this on? Any stats that support this?

Japan has a 99% conviction rate, partly because they only arrest people if they are certain they did it and partly because they'll do everything to coerce you.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/05/25/japans-hostage-justice-system/denial-bail-coerced-confessions-and-lack-access

 

[Kola]

Japan's legal system is fundamentally broken. They have a well documented 99.9% conviction rate.
Even for native born Japanese, if you are charged, you will be convicted.

Their legal system is termed "hostage justice". You have very little hope of release short of threats from the embassy.
Their interrogation techniques are also different, and so foreigners have a harder time.
Police can coerce you into a legally binding confession hours after arrest in ways that are illegal in America.
In Japan, this seals a conviction. A confession is not easily undone.

Once again, Japan is not America.

1. That's not unusual in certain systems, for example USA and Israel both boast a conviction rate of 93%: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate#United_States.
This is because almost only the cases which are slam dunks get prosecuted at all.

2. That's not what you were saying though. You argued that "If you are arrested (...), you have very little hope of getting out even if innocent."
I was expecting to see a rate of foreigners being released as compared to native Japanese.

 

[Black Man Underwear]

1. That's not unusual in certain systems, for example USA and Israel both boast a conviction rate of 93%: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate#United_States.
This is because almost only the cases which are slam dunks get prosecuted at all.

2. That's not what you were saying though. You argued that "If you are arrested (...), you have very little hope of getting out even if innocent."
I was expecting to see a rate of foreigners being released as compared to native Japanese.

The difference between 93% and 99.9% is very big. It is always considered a mistake to falsely charge someone. The 99.9% number implies they rarely if ever make a mistake. 93% implies there is almost a 1 in 10 chance they fucked up, which is reasonable.

Japanese police have a longer leash than American police do.
They can coerce a false confession, and you are just about convicted.
Japanese law makes the term "coerced confession" very murky and hard to prove.

For foreigners who have trouble understanding Japanese, they may believe they can sign away and everything is fine.
If you sign a confession, it all but guarantees conviction.
To obtain one, they may hold you up to 23 days without trial, lawyer, or outside contact.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572
In most of America for example, if arrested, the limit is 48 hours and you must be presented an attorney and phone call if requested.

The good news is they are less likely to receive prison. In 2016, only 744 of 3,509 foreign convicts were incarcerated, with theft being the most common reason. Most are given suspended sentences.

As a foreigner in Japan, you have a language barrier working against you, in addition to a 99.9% conviction rate and a high likelihood of misunderstanding their justice system. While I can't find specific data on foreigner conviction rates, I imagine it isn't much lower.

 

[Dieter Laser]

What are you basing this on? Any stats that support this?

It’s really no secret that Japan is an insanely racist society. Go ask any black man how his trip went. They don’t like anyone that isn’t their particular shade of yellow, and they are 100% open about it.

 

[Chugger]

It’s really no secret that Japan is an insanely racist society. Go ask any black man how his trip went. They don’t like anyone that isn’t their particular shade of yellow, and they are 100% open about it.

So insanely racist they believe that there's nothing wrong with imperial Japanese forces mass raping women and doing chemical warfare? This is what bonesjones is arguing as more or less an obvious fact haha

 

[Black Man Underwear]

So insanely racist they believe that there's nothing wrong with imperial Japanese forces mass raping women and doing chemical warfare? This is what bonesjones is arguing as more or less an obvious fact haha

Asia has a history of violent interethnic conflict with the nations in its region. It's normal and the tensions still exist.

Think of the Balkans. I can imagine a Croat talking about drone striking a Serb because he's a Serb, and how X war crime from Y war was completely justified.
This is how all of Asia operates.

On the rape, that is often disputed or denied by the Nippon Kaigi and other ultranationalist groups. In short, they think most of it didn't happen, but what did happen was deserved.

For whatever they agree happened, it's mostly "we got them back for what they did to us".

 

[Bonesjones]

So insanely racist they believe that there's nothing wrong with imperial Japanese forces mass raping women and doing chemical warfare? This is what bonesjones is arguing as more or less an obvious fact haha

How many posts does it take you to understand simple English dude? Also why do you keep skipping my questions to talk about irrelevant stuff? Is it because you know you can't keep up and try to shift to something else yet again?

 

[Armor of God]

Is this motherfucker really asking an AI to evaluate the the arguments of his opponents on KiwiFarms ? Is this what happens when an idiot piece of shit has been so assblasted in this debate ? The small hats truly are not sending their best it would seem.

Chugger is trying to shit up this thread with rhetoric on Japan, because his pro-Holocaust arguments are so insipid and hackneyed. Similar to the Holocaust propaganda, virtually all of the "established history" related to Japanese "war crimes" is completely fabricated and merely a useful tool to ensure that Japan stays the anti-war, completely cucked vassal state to the US that it is today.

Back to the topic of this thread:

I went through that one list of quotes from German generals and administrators and all you can glean from it is that they were generally apathetic towards a segment of Jewish prisoners dying (the old and the infirm) as a result of being sent to work camps. There is no mention about these being death factories where motherfuckers are shot and their bodies cremated/liquified/whatever the fuck. Simply an admission that yes, a portion of the prisoners are going to die because that's what happens in hard labor camps.

All you faggots who keep parroting the official narrative have is "well akshually experts have agreed that it happened"...yeah, and in the 1970's a group of experts agreed that being a faggot was in fact natural and not a mental disease (how does that look 50 years after the fact ?).

 

[Bonesjones]

I saw this last night. Now if you do the math guess how many jews they said survived the war? If you guess 3.5 to 4 million. Congrats.

 

[Chugger]

This is how all of Asia operates.

On the rape, that is often disputed or denied by the Nippon Kaigi and other ultranationalist groups. In short, they think most of it didn't happen, but what did happen was deserved.

For whatever they agree happened, it's mostly "we got them back for what they did to us".

Remember, I am arguing against Bonejones, so we're talking about modern Japanese people. What do they think Chinese did to them an ancient years that justified mass rape or chemical warfare. If you're not taking Bonesjones' position, just let me know.

It seems like Bonesjones is arguing that the average Japanese person thinks this way, but even if we filter for ultranationalism, I highly doubt that's true. Rape and mass murder of civilians is just something people find unpalatable. We have their writings, private diaries, etc. Find me something where they are referring to mass rape as brutal, but justifiable.

 

[Chugger]

Chugger is trying to shit up this thread with rhetoric on Japan, because his pro-Holocaust arguments are so insipid and hackneyed. Similar to the Holocaust propaganda, virtually all of the "established history" related to Japanese "war crimes" is completely fabricated and merely a useful tool to ensure that Japan stays the anti-war, completely cucked vassal state to the US that it is today.

Back to the topic of this thread:

Mostly I am analyzing Bonesjones, but yeah Holocaust stuff does get boring after a while. It's stimulating to learn about something new.

If you want a response from me about "quotes from German generals and administrators" I will engage w you but you have to promise not to use evasive and intellectually lazy argumentation like the below:

1. Deflection: Instead of answering the direct question about how "Shogun" supports their claims about modern Japanese attitudes, they deflect by attacking the questioner's intelligence.
2. Ad hominem attacks: Rather than engaging with the substance of the argument, they resort to personal insults, suggesting the other person is merely using Google and posting nonsense.
3. Vagueness: They continue to assert that "Shogun" is a "basic primer on Japanese culture" without providing any specific examples or explanations of how it relates to modern attitudes.
4. False equivalence: They imply that a historical novel about feudal Japan provides meaningful insight into contemporary Japanese views on war crimes, which is a significant logical leap.
5. Avoidance: When pressed for specifics, they accuse the other person of being unable to "read nor comprehend basic thoughts," further avoiding the actual question.
6. Lack of evidence: Throughout the exchange, they fail to provide any concrete evidence to support their claims about modern Japanese attitudes.
7. Condescension: The tone of their responses is consistently condescending, seemingly attempting to position themselves as more knowledgeable without actually demonstrating that knowledge.
8. Shifting burden of proof: Instead of supporting their own claims, they implicitly shift the burden to the other person to disprove them.

The laziness is the big thing and largest reason why I mostly ignore Bonesjones on Holocaust stuff.