The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[John.Doe]

[Holocaust theory] fails on any objective measure of history because there's no direct evidence for their main claims [6 billion gassed Jew corpses]

Agreed, thank you.

 

[Chugger]

Agreed, thank you.

Sorry my guy, in the field of history, witness statements and documents are accepted as direct evidence, and so are the forensic findings of archeologists. I didn't set these standards.

 

[Dieter Laser]

I dislike these Jews.

 

[Kola]

Sorry my guy, in the field of history, witness statements and documents are accepted as direct evidence, and so are the forensic findings of archeologists. I didn't set these standards.

When witness statements are as truthful and believable as this it casts a shadow over the entire thing

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/business/media/herman-rosenblat-85-dies-made-up-holocaust-love-story.html

Mr. Rosenblat, who died on Feb. 5 at a hospital in Aventura, Fla., wrote a moving but largely unexceptional Holocaust memoir in 1993. What distinguished it was one scene: a momentary encounter in a snow-dappled field in Germany between a starving teenage inmate at Schlieben, a subcamp of Buchenwald, and a young girl watching him from the other side of a barbed wire fence.

According to his own story, as recounted in another book: “He saw her pull something from her pocket. An apple? She squinted, gauging the distance between them, swung her arm in a few practice throws, then hurled the apple with a force that surprised him. The fruit flew across most of the distance between them before it dropped to the ground, rolled under the fence and landed just inches beyond the wire on Herman’s side.”

Twelve years later, he recognized that same young girl as the woman with whom he was on a blind date in Coney Island, after she recounted her version of the story.

“ ‘That boy was me,’ Herman said,” Penelope J. Holt wrote in “The Apple,” “and he smiled at the beautiful angel by his side.”


This Holocaust story had a happy ending. The couple wed and remained married for more than 56 years. Except that the story, as Herman Rosenblat told it, was not true.

But it was all made up

In fact, during the war Roma and her family, who were Jewish, were passing as Roman Catholics, living with a Polish family 200 miles away. She had never tossed an apple to anyone.

“In my imagination, in my mind, I believed it,” he told “Good Morning America.” “Even now, I believe it, that she was there and she threw the apple to me.”

It was real in my head!

The article ends with this great quote:

“I don’t know why he lied, but if you can’t trust a Holocaust survivor, who can you trust?”

 

[cigint]

witness statements and documents are accepted as direct evidence

So then there must be a wall-building material which, when you drill a hole into it, is capable of bending an inserted shotgun barrel 180 degrees to point at the shooter, and still functions as a firearm that fires backwards. I mean, that's witness testimony.

 

[Black Man Underwear]

So then there must be a wall-building material which, when you drill a hole into it, is capable of bending an inserted shotgun barrel 180 degrees to point at the shooter, and still functions as a firearm that fires backwards. I mean, that's witness testimony.

I'll do one better.

 

[Chugger]

When witness statements are as truthful and believable as this it casts a shadow over the entire thing

My impression is only a tiny tiny fraction of Holocaust witnesses have been debunked like this. For the rest revisionists can only point to inconsistencies in their statements (which are to be expected) or being generally incredulous about mass killing operations.

One important element is statements given shortly after the war and in court are treated as more reliable. The one you found is fifty years after, and from a memoir, which might have been released for money or clout.

So then there must be a wall-building material which, when you drill a hole into it, is capable of bending an inserted shotgun barrel 180 degrees to point at the shooter, and still functions as a firearm that fires backwards. I mean, that's witness testimony.

Present the testimony for us to examine, and so we can know if it was given in court, soon after the war, etc. Most history is going to be based on testimony like this.

 

[Black Man Underwear]

Present the testimony for us to examine, and so we can know if it was given in court, soon after the war, etc. Most history is going to be based on testimony like this.

Testimony was given in the Nuremburg Trials that the Nazis used:

A (probably nuclear) device to vaporize a village (IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21, 1946)).
and
A bicycle that bashed the user's brains (IMT blue series, Vol. 7 p. 376-377).

Besides these comically ridiculous claims, the Soviet Union dumped many of their own war crimes on the Germans.
Example: Katyn.

 

[Chugger]

A (probably nuclear) device to vaporize a village (IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21, 1946)).
and
A bicycle that bashed the user's brains (IMT blue series, Vol. 7 p. 376-377).

Present the verbatim testimony. I think you'll find that the claims in the actual testimony are either reasonable, or pure hearsay (like in the case of the nuke that destroyed the Polish village).

 

[Black Man Underwear]

Present the verbatim testimony. I think you'll find that the claims in the actual testimony are either reasonable, or pure hearsay (like in the case of the nuke that destroyed the Polish village).

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information,
which was placed in my hands, of an experiment which was carried
out near Auschwitz and I would Like to ask you if you heard about
it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to find a
quick and complete way of destroying people without the delay and
trouble of shooting and gassing and burning, as it had been carried
out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A village, a small
village was provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in
it approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By means of this newly
invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people were eradicated
almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace left of them; that it developed, the explosive developed, temperatures
of from 400° to 500° centigrade and destroyed them without leaving
any trace at all.

"In this small room there was a slot in the wall, approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with the back of his head against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In practice this arrangement
did not prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8 days a new arrangement was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; a n ironplate was then slowly lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the, impression that he was being measured for height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and poleaxed the prisoner with a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was operated by a foot lever in a corner of the room. The personnel working in the room belonged to the above-mentioned Sonderkommando.

Both of these improbable, wacky contraptions (of which there are many more) were entered into the official transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials.

 

[Chugger]

Both of these improbable, wacky contraptions (of which there are many more) were entered into the official transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials.

Do you notice how in the nuke testimony, it's not direct testimony? There's no witness given. That means it's hearsay, therefore inadmissible in most courts and also historians don't use hearsay evidence except with heavy qualifiers, and they're never going to say an event happened purely on hearsay.

Regarding the "ramrod", it doesn't sound so unreasonable. You know the surprise sniper slots are definitively real https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genickschussanlage so this is just a different mechanism.

Regardless, that appears to be the only testimony of its kind, so if you ask a historian whether something like that existed, they'll probably tell you maybe. The more detailed and corroborating testimony that exists, the more certainty you get.

 

[Bonesjones]

So who is winning here?
Last time I visited was a good while ago.
Did we achieve consensus or not?

I've won, every time. Deniers always leave when they realize they are hopelessly outmatched except Chugger who is a retard who is most likely paid to be here.

"all jews must be shot". Again, assuming it's accurate, where's the restraint? And why not instead "all partisans must be shot"?

Why would you need restraint in killing people trying to kill you? When you can identify the group of people doing something, you blame them specifically and not just any peasant.

I think nobody has won. Each topic regarding politics has divided them immensely and the Holocaust topic is no different. Maybe if both sides can agreed to be open minded to eachother, they can settle this debate for good and get much closer to the truth.

We are close to the truth, the holocaust didn't happen. Infact the holocaust didn't happen so much they've had billions of dollars and the support of every major government and NGO to prove it happened beyond all reasonable doubt and have failed to do so.

It wasn't Tabun, it was a tear gas of some sort. Survivors of Adzhimushkay quarry siege reported that gas was pumped in at some stage.

Except we showed there's no evidence besides the "victims" saying it happened and provided more evidence it didn't happen ontop of that, using your own source.

If you're referring to the Leuchter report, its sampling was done badly, but from memory also detected cyanide. Later, more rigorous testing indicated the presence of cyanide on the inner surfaces of the ruins of the gas chambers and the adjacent crematoria.

All he did was a very preliminary study and they ruined his life for it, instead of saying it needed more study and they should look into it more. Funny how that's their M.O.

Flat earthers say the same thing.

If they wanted to prove the earth was round they could do it any time they wanted. Just do a simultaneous broadcast of rocket and ground footage, do something in space visible from the ground. Show both viewpoints at once. Easy.

Nigga, you can go to Sobibor, Chelmno or Treblinka today and find human bone ash piled up or an inch underground.

Evidence of mass graves isn't the holocaust, considering the Soviets used those same grounds for their own activities, including mass graves.

My point was that flat earthers have utter conviction about their theories, think phds and people who have dedicated their lives to diligent study are retarded etc

Lmao you think people with phds are smart. You must be in academia. Studying something at the expense of all else constantly leads to incorrect conclusions.

Certainty and confidence (all bonesjones has) means diddley

Then why can't you prove me wrong again? You have the support of many countries, billions of dollars in reparations and research, full academic support of every university. The fact you come up empty handed when it's a sure win means everything.

Revisionism fails on any objective measure of history because there's no direct evidence for their main claims (eg that resettled Jews were actually resettled or that death camps were transit camps). Criticism is only one aspect of history

The Holocaust fails on any objective measure of history because there's no direct evidence for their main claims (eg that Hitler ordered jews gassed and cremated or that anyone was ever gassed or cremated or that prison camps were anything more than that)

You have no history, you barely have a narrative, all you have is facts blatantly piecemealed into an illogical story with no evidence to support.

Sorry my guy, in the field of history, witness statements and documents are accepted as direct evidence, and so are the forensic findings of archeologists. I didn't set these standards.

No they aren't, they are used to support physical evidence. You have no physical evidence, so it's meaningless. You also don't have any forensic findings, you've got preliminary studies. The fact they've never done further research nor excavations proves what I've said. They only look into things as far as they can use it to push the holocaust narrative, never to the full extent that normal research demands.

I dislike these Jews.

You should, they are all liars and deceivers.

So then there must be a wall-building material which, when you drill a hole into it, is capable of bending an inserted shotgun barrel 180 degrees to point at the shooter, and still functions as a firearm that fires backwards. I mean, that's witness testimony.

If you don't believe the words of jews over your lying eyes, what can you believe. They are God's chosen people, don't you know.

My impression is only a tiny tiny fraction of Holocaust witnesses have been debunked like this. For the rest revisionists can only point to inconsistencies in their statements (which are to be expected) or being generally incredulous about mass killing operations.

Why are we always relying on your thoughts and impressions? Why can't you ever back up your claims. Inconsistent statements are normal thats why we don't use them without direct physical evidence.

One important element is statements given shortly after the war and in court are treated as more reliable. The one you found is fifty years after, and from a memoir, which might have been released for money or clout.

They are all unreliable, that's why we don't use them. All of it is for money and clout.

Present the testimony for us to examine, and so we can know if it was given in court, soon after the war, etc. Most history is going to be based on testimony like this.

No it's not.

Present the verbatim testimony. I think you'll find that the claims in the actual testimony are either reasonable, or pure hearsay (like in the case of the nuke that destroyed the Polish village).

Reasonable testimony to Chugger: being forced into fake showers but surprise it's actually a gas chamber!

Being forced into gas vans and driven into the woods, where they get killed by diesel engines and then dumped into mass graves!

Being put on a train from Eastern Europe for hundreds of miles, just to be forced to get into a gas chamber and killed and cremated there!

The Nazis being so evil they would ruin their chances at winning the war, so they expend huge amounts of resources just to keep jews alive so they can kill them using Rube Goldberg machines foe their own amusement.

Do you notice how in the nuke testimony, it's not direct testimony? There's no witness given. That means it's hearsay, therefore inadmissible in most courts and also historians don't use hearsay evidence except with heavy qualifiers, and they're never going to say an event happened purely on hearsay.

Unless it's the holocaust, then all bets are off.

Regarding the "ramrod", it doesn't sound so unreasonable. You know the surprise sniper slots are definitively real https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genickschussanlage so this is just a different mechanism.

If you believe that, you really are retarded. You'd never fire a gun in an enclosed space like that because you'll ruin your hearing and everyone would know, even if you tried to keep it hidden. Go buy a firecracker and set it off in your house, guns are louder than that.

Regardless, that appears to be the only testimony of its kind, so if you ask a historian whether something like that existed, they'll probably tell you maybe. The more detailed and corroborating testimony that exists, the more certainty you get.

Or get this, instead of doing thousands of hours of interviewing, you could just look at the facts and figure it out in seconds.

So again, do you think Bigfoot is real? It meets every evidentiary standard you've set for the Holocaust and actually expands upon that level.

Also your interview was a total waste of time and they both come across as morons, much like you.

 

[Trump's Chosen]

Why would you need restraint in killing people trying to kill you? When you can identify the group of people doing something, you blame them specifically and not just any peasant.

The order is obviously taking the initiative. Soldiers already shoot whomever tries to shoot them.

 

[Chugger]

Then why can't you prove me wrong again? You have the support of many countries, billions of dollars in reparations and research, full academic support of every university. The fact you come up empty handed when it's a sure win means everything.

For the same exact reason that flat earthers "win" against PHDs. You're just winning in your own mind, and to be honest I'm not even sure about that. You might be trolling. Or trolling yourself, idk.

 

[Bonesjones]

For the same exact reason that flat earthers "win" against PHDs. You're just winning in your own mind, and to be honest I'm not even sure about that. You might be trolling. Or trolling yourself, idk.

I like that you are trying new arguments out but you should pick a less dumb one. All available evidence proves me correct. We have clear written orders of expulsion of jews. We have clear evidence that all gas chambers were not used for killing humans. We have clear evidence that those who are claimed to be killed weren't (there's no mass graves of millions of jews). Knowing all this, they had to either stop existing or travel elsewhere. So do you believe in Bigfoot?

 

[Chugger]

I like that you are trying new arguments out but you should pick a less dumb one. All available evidence proves me correct. We have clear written orders of expulsion of jews. We have clear evidence that all gas chambers were not used for killing humans. We have clear evidence that those who are claimed to be killed weren't (there's no mass graves of millions of jews). Knowing all this, they had to either stop existing or travel elsewhere. So do you believe in Bigfoot?

Well you're just wrong and dumb. Your "expulsion orders" mean nothing because every orthodox historian believes Jews were expelled (and either put to work or sent to death camps). Everything else you say is similarly dumb and/or wrong and I don't think you're good faith enough for me to engage w you further.

 

[Bonesjones]

Well you're just wrong and dumb. Your "expulsion orders" mean nothing because every orthodox historian believes Jews were expelled (and either put to work or sent to death camps). Everything else you say is similarly dumb and/or wrong and I don't think you're good faith enough for me to engage w you further.

Lol cry some more. You've got nothing, you've never had nothing, all you've got left is your own tears. Every orthodox historian is a propagandist not interested in the truth but a useless lacky hoping to not get stomped on by the foot of evil jews. Imagine trying to invent code words to make the Wansee conference mean anything but what it says directly.

 

[Chugger]

you've never had nothing

Interesting

 

[DSHK]

I think it happened and those dirty kikes deserved it

 

[Bonesjones]

Interesting

So do you believe in Bigfoot?