Bonesjones
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Yes that's exactly what they did. We literally argued about this before, stop playing dumb because you can't win an argument.
The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers
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How do you know they didn't examine them when they explicitly said they did? "The investigating personnel were divided into three teams, each working at a table to record data, as soil samples were withdrawn and examined."
Bonesjones
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I'm not repeating conversations with you so you can feign ignorance of the conclusion. You are a retarded nigger.
Cool response bro
To the gouts the above is a good example of why you shouldn't seriously engage with this poster
Bonesjones
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Why did they build a fake gas chamber at Dachau they didn't use?
Why didn't you post those autopsy reports of people being gassed you "had somewhere you just have to look for"?
Why do you circle between the same empty arguments like clockwork every time you can't respond to one?
Why can't you post those direct orders of the Nazis ordering genocide?
Why haven't you built a central thesis that would prove the holocaust happened? You've literally been at this for months or years.
Why do you double post like a retard?
"Don't engage with him bro, he's just an idiot" except for the fact I've proven you wrong at every corner. Just like a jew and a holocaust scholar, pretend things don't exist you can't answer for.
Why should I bother answering questions when you think that archeologists didn't examine core samples when they said they did? You're broken at the most basic level.
Like I'm not going to try to teach you multiplication etc if you're stuck on 2 + 2.
Bonesjones
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Yet I've still owned you at every opportunity, imagine what that makes you.
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This is amusing, in the context of you not understanding basic physics or chemistry.
You constantly over promise and under-deliver, if you deliver at all. It's a consistent bad-faith pattern of yours where you make a claim, assert it is backed up by mountains of evidence and then, over a grueling and time wasting process of avoidance and excuses you eventually either produce nothing or some tangentially related thing with no providence that we must accept on your word.
You purport to be a smart fellow with considerable education and subject matter expertise in this area in particular, and discussions of this topic should not be novel, so why do you seem so ill-equipped to respond in a measured and clear fashion?
When a simple question takes a week of dodging, insults, and multiple contradictory statements before ending in a screenshot of an Microsoft Word document purporting to be a translation of another document which only opens up further questions as to the validity of your prior assertions, it doesn't really make it seem like you're arguing in good faith or with good evidence. As I said before, discussions of this topic should not be novel and according to you the evidence is overwhelming, so why do you seem so ill-equipped to respond in a measured and clear fashion? One might think that the information and demonstrable proof would be at your fingertips, so why has it taken you so long to respond in even this unsatisfactory fashion?
If you were a well informed person with tons of material (not anecdotal or narrative) evidence to support you then step one would have been to present the complete truth in one simple, clear post. Not drag this affair out like you have nothing to support your point and are desperately searching the internet for anything you can copy-paste in while deliberately being obtuse and obnoxious.
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@Chugger
Here's a question on my mind better than arguing with some of the nonsense in this thread. How do we actually know the millions of Jews who vanished (officially "murdered") actually were killed by the Nazis? For the sake of the argument, let's consider a hypothetical Goldstein family living in Poland in 1939.
-Abraham Goldstein is 70 years in 1939. In 1941, he dies of a sudden heart attack in his sleep.
-Abraham's oldest son Schlomo illegally enters the United States in 1939. In 1941, he is murdered by the Mafia for not paying the protection fee on his prostitution business
-Abraham's second son Benjamin flees to the Soviet Union after the German invasion of Poland and becomes a communist bureaucrat. In 1940, the NKVD names him a counter-revolutionary so he dies in a gulag.
-Abraham's third son Herschel joins the Luftwaffe as thousands of other Jews did. In 1941 Herschel dies in a bombing raid on his airbase.
-Abraham's fourth son Mordechai joins Chaim Rumkowski's pro-Nazi Jewish Police. He gets sent to another Jewish ghetto away from his family where as a sexual pervert he rapes Jewish women dies of syphilis.
-Abraham's fifth son Lyor illegally emigrates to Palestine and joins a Zionist terrorist group. In 1941 he accidently blows himself up building a bomb.
-Abraham's only daughter Abigail dies of breast cancer in 1942. Her husband Yehuda, a member of Chaim Rumkowski's Jewish Police, is killed by a Jewish man he tries extorting to pay for her funeral
-Abraham's youngest son Moshe is an alcoholic who beats his wife Rachel. One day in 1940, he gets too drunk on kosher wine and beats her to death. Rachel gives birth to a child who dies several days later. Moshe drinks himself to death over the next few months
Meanwhile, Abraham's nephew Chaim who also escaped to the USSR goes to Israel in 1948. He has no idea what happened to the rest of his family because he lived in a different ghetto. Chaim tells Yad Vashem and other researchers his uncle and all his cousins were murdered by the Nazis, despite the Nazis having nothing to do with their deaths.
So how many times did things like this happen? I'm willing to accept that the majority of Jews who died in the Holocaust were indeed targeted for annihilation as evidenced by the camps, Einsatzgruppen orders, pictorial evidence, etc. But certainly stories like the fictional Goldsteins here had to have happened many times. Yad Vashem can only find something like 4.5 million names of Holocaust victims, and while some families might actually have been entirely destroyed, surely the overcount would reduce that number from 4.5 million. Incidentally that's about the number that one Jewish writer who denies some aspects of the Holocaust claims were killed by the Nazis (I disagree with some of his methods, but it's an interesting coincidence).
The actual number of Jews deliberately exterminated by the Einsatzgruppen or who died in the literal death camps like Treblinka is only a portion of Holocaust victims. Same thing with Jews who died of illness or starvation in concentration camps/forced labor. Isn't it a problem that Holocaust is conflated with "Jews who died during Nazi rule?" Is 6 million an overcount and the actual number is closer to 5-5.5 million Jews we can prove actually were killed by the Nazis and not killed by natural causes, old age, the Allies or communists (Stalin purged a ton of Jews), or Jew on Jew violence unrelated to Jewish Nazi groups?
Here's a question on my mind better than arguing with some of the nonsense in this thread. How do we actually know the millions of Jews who vanished (officially "murdered") actually were killed by the Nazis? For the sake of the argument, let's consider a hypothetical Goldstein family living in Poland in 1939.
-Abraham Goldstein is 70 years in 1939. In 1941, he dies of a sudden heart attack in his sleep.
-Abraham's oldest son Schlomo illegally enters the United States in 1939. In 1941, he is murdered by the Mafia for not paying the protection fee on his prostitution business
-Abraham's second son Benjamin flees to the Soviet Union after the German invasion of Poland and becomes a communist bureaucrat. In 1940, the NKVD names him a counter-revolutionary so he dies in a gulag.
-Abraham's third son Herschel joins the Luftwaffe as thousands of other Jews did. In 1941 Herschel dies in a bombing raid on his airbase.
-Abraham's fourth son Mordechai joins Chaim Rumkowski's pro-Nazi Jewish Police. He gets sent to another Jewish ghetto away from his family where as a sexual pervert he rapes Jewish women dies of syphilis.
-Abraham's fifth son Lyor illegally emigrates to Palestine and joins a Zionist terrorist group. In 1941 he accidently blows himself up building a bomb.
-Abraham's only daughter Abigail dies of breast cancer in 1942. Her husband Yehuda, a member of Chaim Rumkowski's Jewish Police, is killed by a Jewish man he tries extorting to pay for her funeral
-Abraham's youngest son Moshe is an alcoholic who beats his wife Rachel. One day in 1940, he gets too drunk on kosher wine and beats her to death. Rachel gives birth to a child who dies several days later. Moshe drinks himself to death over the next few months
Meanwhile, Abraham's nephew Chaim who also escaped to the USSR goes to Israel in 1948. He has no idea what happened to the rest of his family because he lived in a different ghetto. Chaim tells Yad Vashem and other researchers his uncle and all his cousins were murdered by the Nazis, despite the Nazis having nothing to do with their deaths.
So how many times did things like this happen? I'm willing to accept that the majority of Jews who died in the Holocaust were indeed targeted for annihilation as evidenced by the camps, Einsatzgruppen orders, pictorial evidence, etc. But certainly stories like the fictional Goldsteins here had to have happened many times. Yad Vashem can only find something like 4.5 million names of Holocaust victims, and while some families might actually have been entirely destroyed, surely the overcount would reduce that number from 4.5 million. Incidentally that's about the number that one Jewish writer who denies some aspects of the Holocaust claims were killed by the Nazis (I disagree with some of his methods, but it's an interesting coincidence).
The actual number of Jews deliberately exterminated by the Einsatzgruppen or who died in the literal death camps like Treblinka is only a portion of Holocaust victims. Same thing with Jews who died of illness or starvation in concentration camps/forced labor. Isn't it a problem that Holocaust is conflated with "Jews who died during Nazi rule?" Is 6 million an overcount and the actual number is closer to 5-5.5 million Jews we can prove actually were killed by the Nazis and not killed by natural causes, old age, the Allies or communists (Stalin purged a ton of Jews), or Jew on Jew violence unrelated to Jewish Nazi groups?
Bonesjones
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If you notice it's not just a pattern with him, it's everyone who comes here to defend the holocaust. They know they don't have the informational backing to prove any of their assertions, so they bluff and bluster. It's all a circular ploy to win with pilpul.
Somehow they all quote holocaust controversies, they all talk about "/pol/ memes" they still can't refute.
Look at much stuff they just outright ignore, because they have no answer for it.
Many surviving jews were separated and later found out their families had survived but changed their name in the turmoil of post war. They'd later reconnect in Isreal or the USA after.
Crazy how the Nazis used their telepathy to make jews die in the holocaust even when they had nothing to do with it. Sounds like you're just making shit up so you can make the statistics fit your lies. Congrats on discovering dark holocaust matter, your Noble Prize will arrive shortly.
Yes.
Crazy how you make up these outlandish hypothetical situations, just to land right back where you started. I think you should stick with your dark jew matter theory. Again, we already know millions of people died in the Soviet Union post war, enough to encompass the entire Holocaust. They also had already tried to frame the Nazis for their own war crimes and crimes against humanity. So congrats on figuring out how the holocaust didn't happen by the Nazis but is entirely possible it happened by the Russians.
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It's interesting because we were talking about fairly substantive matters (like the amount of wood necessary for open air body destruction in ideal circumstances, and your assertion that no one had found crushed bone at the sites -- which is exactly what they found) and then you go to a completely different subject, me failing to answer a "simple question". What question lol? You can't even substantiate this.
So I'll give you a simple response that invites further discussion. German documents give us more or less precise stats on how many Jews were in a certain place, how many were moved, and where they were moved to. If they were moved to a place identified by the record as a killing facility, and then they aren't heard from again, yep they're considered killed. If you're interested in this question you can start by looking at the case of Chelmno (and can repeat for all other assumed killing facilities but it's best to take them one by one) https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/07/sonderkommando-kulmhof-in-german.html
The documents at the bottom are the evidence. You can look through them and if you have questions I'll answer, if it seems like you're being serious.
On a high level, these statistics are confirmed by another German document, the Korherr report. The Germans also kept records of how many Jews they shot in the occupied USSR (the number easily eclipses 1 million even considering double counting).
Of course these numbers aren't exact, so when I say precise I mean they could be adjusted up or down, but not by a lot (maybe 20% up or down)
Bonesjones
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So what ideal circumstances were they burning bodies in exactly? They just built big pits and threw them on bonfires remember?
There you go pretending that something found in one place can be universally applied, but only when it fits your narrative. So again where are the million body strong mass graves of Auschiwtz?
Who identified it as a killing facility exactly? How did they identify it? It looks like it was a transit camp, which also leaves no trace of people. I wonder which is more likely?
So the numbers aren't exact and can vary but only in amounts that favor you? Nice circular reasoning there. Hey look its that holocaust dark matter again. The numbers don't matter because you can just apply the dark matter to make up the difference. It's like science.
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I admit the Germans did have autistic numbers which couldn't have varied by much since there was a lot of "processing" going on. Hence why 10-20% is probably the most you'd alter the actual casualties with, and it wouldn't so much be "a Jewish man could only assume the Nazis killed his family" but "Fritz the SS officer exaggerating his success against the Jews to impress his boss." But don't Holocaust numbers conventionally include Jews who died of disease in the ghetto or were summarily executed? That seems to be where you'd get some grey areas.
Most people who died in the USSR postwar were Germans, including some of the tens of thousands of Jews who served in the Wehrmacht who got gulag'ed. And I agree that some massacres and killings of Jews may well have been done by the USSR and would figure in the demographic losses of the Jews of Eastern Europe. But 5 million vs 6 million is a pretty big difference worthy of study.
Yes there's statistics about how many died in ghettos as well, especially the major ones, like Warsaw. It's arguable that these Jews weren't treated with genocidal intentions, but I would say probable due to brutal caloric restrictions that were imposed. Holocaust statistics also include Jews that died in labor camps. This one is more arguable to me, their treatment was more or less in line with other slave laborers, but there's a lot of evidence pointing to genocidal intentions towards all Eastern Europeans.
The executions are listed in great detail as well, this is from August to November 1942, more than a year after they occupied USSR https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2019/11/report-to-hitler-jews-executed-363211.html
You can speculate that regional commanders were inflating numbers to please their superiors (which doesn't really help the revisionist position because it adds more credence to the notion that the massacres were systematic). I would agree there's more grey area here, though historians also speculate there were many killings that weren't documented (which is why historians estimates of shooting deaths fluctuate between 1-1.5 million). You want to say only 500,000 were killed? Well this is problematic because the Germans kept population statistics for the Jews under their control in occupied USSR. We know the ghetto populations there too, and we know that by 1943 virtually all these ghettos were gone or their populations drastically reduced (like by 90%). There's no evidence of Jews being kept anywhere else in large numbers. The main remaining speculation to make here is that Jews were able to escape during the liquidation of ghettos. There's evidence of this actually. Many Jews got wind of the shooting operations and got their hands on weapons, not really for the purpose of making an honest fight, since they were hopelessly outgunned, but to create enough of a diversion for people to escape. Some definitely escaped, but it's not clear how many.
These are legit questions though.
Orthodox historians study this and I know many who strongly take the closer to 5 million position.
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I can see that argument.
Any good reading on this? I've seen "5.7 million" listed, and it seems the 6 million is so common because it's a nice round number.
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The problem with you is that you mindlessly copy+paste anything you think is tangentially related, regardless of how preposterous or irrelevant. You post clearly inaccurate 'investigations' that have conclusions which violate our known knowledge of physics/chemistry, you try to declare that fragmentary patents for perpetual motion machines constitute proof, and bring up completely unrelated matters that have no bearing on the topic at hand.
You always have something stupid to say or claim in response, with no regard to what it implies for your larger narrative because you have no over-arching, consistent explanation that aligns with data and fact.
"There are no bodies because they cremated them all to dust."
"Where did the fuel come from for that?""Well they don't need that much fuel, they had crematoriums.""Well that doesn't seem possible and the evidence we seem to have shows burn pits, not even crematoriums.""That is because they did most of the burning outside.""THAT REQUIRES EVEN MORE FUEL SO WHERE DID THE FUEL COME FROM?" "Look at these guidelines for sterilization prior to burial of diseased cattle corpses using air curtain technology that wasn't developed before the war, using the kind of fuel the Germans were most desperate for at the time. That proves they would only need an impossible amount, not an incredibly impossible supply!""That makes no sense, besides the time-traveling technology, as now you're restricting the fuel sources even further. Which only begs the question: WHERE DID THE FUEL COME FROM?" "They don't need much, they had fat jews to fuel specially designed magic crematoriums!""What? You just said they used burn pits! Now magic crematoriums? This is implausible on its face! Where's the evidence?" "Well here is a memo from a guy who knew a guy that heard in a bar that it happened, and a patent application from after the war!""What? That isn't evidence, just some statements we can't verify. Show some photographs or maybe-" "There are no photographs, all photos were banned and its ridiculous to even ask me for them! Only a Nazi would ask for a photograph of the crematoriums!".........." "Now let me show you a photo of an open burn pit., staffed by people with no uniforms or identifying features. That PROVES that 6 gajillion Jews were holorcoasted!""What? You just said that photos were banned at all these camps and asking for them would be silly!" "Silly for you, of course! All evidence proves the Holocaust, and the lack of evidence just means you can't disprove it!"Bonesjones
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Now they argue between themselves about how many millions of jews died was it 6.1 or 5.9 million, idk let's just round to 6 for good measure.
Hilberg's Destruction 3rd edition has a 20 page appendix justifying his 5.1 million estimate. More here https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/questions/numbers.shtml
It's easy for you to misrepresent me when you're not actually quoting me to demonstrate your points, or that's kind of argumentation that I'm using. Your depiction of me is as fantastical as your stories of space Jews.
We were discussing efficiency of open air pits, I asked you for figures since you seem to have a lot of confidence in your technical understanding. You don't want to talk about this anymore?
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No, we weren't, you asserted that somehow open-air pit burning is somehow more efficient than closed-vessel cremation, and when I asked you to explain how you played your shuck and jive game.
"An open air pit-style burning is less efficient than any kind of crematorium,"
What kind of dumb shit is this? An open air pit-style burning is less efficient than any kind of crematorium, because in a closed vessel the hot air can easily escape up and away, carrying heat with it. The lack of a vessel that is reflective to radiant energy also introduces a method of heat loss. Either you don't understand the physics (I'd believe that) or you just want to post in bad faith. Either way, you're not contributing. We again go back to this timeless gem.
My depiction of you is accurate, you don't have an actual stance, just continual reactionary bad faith posting. When its convenient you declare with conviction that everyone was cremated with magic jew-fat fueled machines, then when it suits you you say it is all open pits, or whatever.
I'd have to be talking with someone, as opposed to a non-sentient chatbot with really bad programming.
Bonesjones
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Funny your own sources do the same tactics you do, constantly contradict themselves to avoid saying anything substantial.
You'd have to say something to misrepresent it.
We were talking about how you can't cremate jews without fuel, so where's the fuel?