The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

Good lord no.

That's only the rules and regulations.

We haven't even discussed the Auschwitz stuff. Which is why I asked you if you'd got the book yet.

I have it in pdf. I can get any holocaust handbooks in pdf instantly using google.

Ok so post the best evidence from it, and we'll add it to the list. I don't think any evidence in it is good so . . . I'm not gonna add anything until I get your OK

 

[mrolonzo]

I have it in pdf. I can get any holocaust handbooks in pdf instantly using google.

Ok so post the best evidence from it, and we'll add it to the list. I don't think any evidence in it is good so . . . I'm not gonna add anything until I get your OK

LMAO

No. YOU post the best evidence from it, as fully quoted pages. This way we can get you to stop whining when I post pages from it and I don't have to wonder if you've even read revisionism.

Again you try to get us to run around for you.

 

[Chugger]

No. YOU post the best evidence from it, as fully quoted pages.

there is no 'best' evidence, in my opinion. there's no pro-revisionist evidence to speak of. it's all just convoluted explanations of why holocaust evidence isn't good, like his explanation for the 900 working day and night at the cremas for weeks on end-- germans were fudging their employment numbers, he says

 

[mgc]

germans were fudging their employment numbers, he says

LOL he really says this?

 

[mrolonzo]

there is no 'best' evidence, in my opinion. there's no pro-revisionist evidence to speak of. it's all just convoluted explanations of why holocaust evidence isn't good, like his explanation for the 900 working day and night at the cremas for weeks on end-- germans were fudging their employment numbers, he says

See this is why we don't take you seriously.

You can't even produce the best evidence from a clearly written out book. Your opinion isn't even worth spit, but you don't have to agree with it. Just give it from the perspective of the author.

That way we'll know you're not just fucking with us. You've read the stuff. Please review all the salient criticism of your conduct from us here. Always remember. You're not respected here. So do something to make us respect you rather than reject you. It'll be good for HS's brand.

 

[Chugger]

LOL he really says this?

yeah he blows up his misunderstanding of the maurer document into evidence that the Germans had trouble finding employment for their Jewish labor force, so had to inflate the numbers

https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/17-aoai.pdf pg 90

You can't even produce the best evidence from a clearly written out book. Your opinion isn't even worth spit, but you don't have to agree with it. Just give it from the perspective of the author.

Idk, have you read the book? in terms of documents it's a lot of pilpul and asking questions around the Germans' obvious use of coded language. he finds no positive evidence -- ie documents showing the "dummy" shower heads were connected to pipes, or some policy or explanation about the ~70% of Jews that went unregistered

 

[VideoViewer69]

Let's start at zero, okay? You start producing bodies and we can count them together.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pictures+...tims&t=newext&atb=v242-1&iax=images&ia=images

Enjoy

 

[Chugger]

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pictures+...tims&t=newext&atb=v242-1&iax=images&ia=images

Enjoy

here's a better link http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/10/mass-graves-and-dead-bodies.html

 

[Bonesjones]

hold on Bones, as Certified_Autist said , I'm clearly not stupid so there's something else happening in this convo. I'm either lying or have made a horrendous mistake, or you have made a horrendous mistake, but we both know I'm not stupid.

You don't seem like a normal person at this point, so I am inclined not to continue

I dont think you are stupid, I think you are literally 70 iq, fucking retarded.

 

[Stan]

This thread was over as soon as Chugger and History Speaks could not disprove John Doe's logistics and crematorium arguments.


Nigga this has nothing to do with the Holocaust and now its just getting into "war". Its a war, people get killed and captured during wars. Millions of Germans were killed and captured too, and English and Italians, and French, etc, but you're ignoring that to talk about Poles and Russians because its convenient for you to misrepresent war deaths in certain areas. And lots of cities get purposely razed during wars. Yes this literally is a "both sides did it" thing. Exeter, Berlin, Leningrad, Hamburg London Dresden, Warsaw, Cologne, Stalingrad, Coventry, etc . Name a major city in Europe and regardless of who owned it or attacked it, it was probably razed or took significant damage during the war.

They just keep changing the subject every time they encounter a point they can't refute, and now its gotten to the point they're saying "muh Natzhees were anti-white" since they went to war with other white countries. This is simply a straight up diversion since it has nothing to do with the Holocaust. (especially the part they insist on defending about 6 million Jews being gassed with delousing gas and all the bodies vanishing)

Haha wrong. It’s possible to overclock a crematorium. This guy did it in California in the late 60’s, and a bystander who noticed that the so-called “ceramics kiln” was actually a crematorium with multiple bodies in a single muffle at any given time complained that the smell and the smoke was exactly like what he saw and smelled at Auschwitz. This funeral director actually burned down one crematorium built around the turn of the century after stuffing 38 bodies inside 2 muffles; in response he opened up a clandestine crematorium, which was the one that got busted.

Assistant Hesperia Fire Chief Will Wentworth listened incredulously as a caller complained that the noxious black smoke pouring from a nondescript building in the desert carried the sickeningly sweet smell of burning human flesh.

“I don’t think so, it’s a ceramics shop,” Wentworth replied.

“Don’t tell me they’re not burning bodies. I was at the ovens at Auschwitz,” the man said chillingly, Wentworth recalled.

Wentworth was still skeptical when he drove out to Oscar Ceramics and opened one of the massive brick furnaces. A burning foot fell out. Scattered around the interior, caked black with the accumulated bodily grime from the brick ovens, were trash cans brimming with human ashes and prosthetic devices.

Up to 100 bodies would lie in the mortuary’s cold room awaiting transportation to the crematory, where David used a wood 2-by-4 to pack them into the ovens like cordwood, according to witnesses at the Sconces’ preliminary hearing, which ended earlier this year. Under the state Health and Safety Code, it is a misdemeanor to cremate more than one body at a time.

“What difference does it make?” a witness recalled David Sconce saying. “They’re dead.”

The final chapter in the story opened Nov. 23, 1986, when a fire destroyed the crematory in Altadena. That morning, employee John Hallinan said, he and another worker loaded 38 bodies into the two furnaces, each measuring 3.5 feet high by 4 feet wide by 8 feet long. That broke the previous record of 18 bodies in one furnace, the employee said. Hallinan said he had to break the leg of one body to get it in and that it might have blocked up the chimney, starting the blaze.

In b4 “but it was the 80s and crematoriums were so much better!” Scone’s first crematorium was built “at the turn of the century” and he still overloaded it with bodies. His second crematorium was a jury rigged contraption made out of two industrial kilns. But, even if you allow that the technology might have improved (fuel would not have, unless this crematorium runs on fission power) this guy still was able to run his crematorium, which was designed to hold one body, into holding 10+ at a time and running the crematoriums 24 hours a day. His main motivation: saving money and time. Oops.

The evidence suggests that the Germans continually pushed their crematoriums to the limit, and were continually building new ones until they started demolishing the death camps. When there was too much overflow the Germans just burned bodies in open pits, or let them sit around for awhile.

Read more about the thermodynamic impossibility here:

https://connectingdirectors.com/54103-criminal-cremator

https://www.topic.com/the-mortician-and-the-murderer

 

[JohnDoe]

Germans continually pushed their crematoriums to the limit, and were continually building new ones until they started demolishing the death camps. When there was too much overflow the Germans just burned bodies in open pits, or let them sit around for awhile.

So the answer to "where did they get the fuel and materials needed to cremate the bodies, even under perfectly efficient conditions it seems implausible" is "they were so wasteful and inefficient out of sheer incompetent evil that they constantly broke and rebuilt crematoriums and also had to use even more wasteful open pits".

Do you even read what you post, or was this copypasta just assigned to you?

 

[Stan]

More damning evidence, coming from the NYT. A historian named Gerald Fleming submitted excerpts of interviews he found in Soviet document collections in the 90’s to their Opinion section (in B4 “omg Opinion!”; NYT didn’t permit freelance staff writing at that time and ran this article in “opinion” because Fleming was not a staff member of NYT.)

Q. How often and with what aim did you visit Auschwitz?

A. Five times. The first time [was] at the beginning of 1943, to receive orders of the SS Command where the "Kremas" were to be built. The second time [was] in spring 1943 to inspect the building site. The third time was in autumn 1943 to inspect a fault in the construction of a "Krema" chimney. The fourth time [was] at the beginning of 1944, to inspect the repaired chimney. The fifth time [was] in September-October 1944, when I visited Auschwitz in connection with the intended relocation [from Auschwitz] of the crematoriums, since the front was getting nearer. The crematoriums were not relocated, because there were not enough workers.

Q. Were you the sole Topf engineer in Auschwitz in spring 1943?

A. No, [senior engineer Karl] Schultze was with me in Auschwitz at that time. I saw personally about 60 corpses of women and men of different ages, which were being prepared for incineration. That was at 10 in the morning. I witnessed the incineration of six corpses and came to the conclusion that the furnaces were functioning well.

Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematorium?

A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

Q. Did you know that in the gas chambers and in the crematoriums there took place the liquidations of innocent human beings?

A. I have known since spring 1943 that innocent human beings were being liquidated in Auschwitz gas chambers and that their corpses were subsequently incinerated in the crematoriums.

Q. Who is the designer of the ventilation systems for the gas chambers?
A. Schultze was the designer of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers, and he installed them.
Q. Why was the brick lining of the muffles so quickly damaged?
A. The bricks were damaged after six months because the strain on the furnaces was colossal.
Q. What motivated you to continue with the building of the other crematoriums as senior engineer with Topf?
A. I had my contract with the Topf firm and I was aware of the fact that my work was of great importance for the national socialist state. I knew that if I refused to continue with this work, I would be liquidated by the Gestapo.
Ten days later, on March 15, 1946, Mr. Prufer was interrogated again.
Q. Since when have you been constructing and building crematoriums for concentration camps?
A. Since 1940. In that year, I was asked by Ludwig Topf to build a three-muffle-furnace crematorium. He, Ludwig Topf, told me that this is an order from the SS Command and that it must be completed urgently. In the same year, 1940, the SS leadership accepted the three-muffle furnaces designed by me, and thereafter Topf and Sohne began this work under my direction. From 1940 to 1944, 20 crematoriums for concentration camps were built under my direction -- for Buchenwald, Dachau, Mauthausen, Auschwitz and Gross-Rosen.

Q. Who at Topf accepted your projects?
A. They were accepted by chief engineer Sander. If Sander noticed any errors in these projects, he modified such faults personally and he also confirmed acceptance of these projects personally. It was only then that Sander submitted these projects to Ludwig Topf for final approval. I constructed and designed the furnaces. Keller did the technical drawings. I was technically responsible and Schultze created and installed the ventilation systems.

From this article, it would seem that the designers of the ovens had to come back to Auschwitz to service the equipment several times because high crematory demand was causing excessive wear and tear.

Even the oven builders acknowledge the gas chambers were there, and that the crematoria were being pushed to the limit 24/7. If they don’t deny it, why would you even try?

 

[mgc]

More damning evidence, coming from the NYT. A historian named Gerald Fleming submitted excerpts of interviews he found in Soviet document collections in the 90’s to their Opinion section (in B4 “omg Opinion!”; NYT didn’t permit freelance staff writing at that time and ran this article in “opinion” because Fleming was not a staff member of NYT.)



From this article, it would seem that the designers of the ovens had to come back to Auschwitz to service the equipment several times because high crematory demand was causing excessive wear and tear.

Good find bro. Also relevant is the document Chugger found about all the workers that were needed to collect wood for cremation at Auschwitz, insofar as this document shows that the cremas were used at maximal capacity and also corroborates witness statements about open-air cremations.

The big problem these blockheads have is that they think you can determine the fuel requirements of the cremas a priori. They believe they can determine how much fuel the cremas needed without looking into specific cremation methods and innovations in fuel efficiency, based only on assumptions about the number of corpses and the weight of the avg corpse, etc.

The basic flaw here is that they mistakenly conflate energy (a requirement for the amount of energy needed in cremation could be inferred a priori, given a few assumptions) with fuel. This is mistaken because fuel is not energy, just a source of energy. The other salient source of energy in cremation is heat, and methods of cremation that retain more heat are going to be more fuel efficient.

A secondary flaw in their "reasoning" is that they implicitly assume that cremas at Auschwitz must have ran in a similar way as commercial cremations.

However, cremation at Auschwitz aimed at burning as many corpses as quickly as possible. This is a different aim than commercial cremation, which is legally required to cremate bodies in such a way that respects the dignity of the dead. Therefore more fuel-efficient methods, such as running the cremas continuously all day and burning multiple bodies at once, were available at Auschwitz than are available at comercial cremas.

I have tried to explain this to them but they are just too stupid. Maybe we should leave them to their fantasy world where they have made some massive epistemological breakthrough. Nobody outside of here and other hubs for Holocaust denial (CODOH) will take them seriously so it is rather cruel to continue mocking them.

 

[JohnDoe]

What's the term for when two idiots treat the thread like an open DM to ignore, derail, and present coordinated agreement as if it has a factual basis or logical consistency? I want to say a circle jerk, but that doesn't have the bad-faith implication I really need.

 

[mrolonzo]

What's the term for when two idiots treat the thread like an open DM to ignore, derail, and present coordinated agreement as if it has a factual basis or logical consistency? I want to say a circle jerk, but that doesn't have the bad-faith implication I really need.

Consensus cracking? Nah that's not it.

Why is HS just repeating this thermodynamic crap again? Not even a deeper explanation.

And why is Stan giving us this dodgy link to a pay walled newspaper article and not even naming the engineer?

 

[Bonesjones]

Haha wrong. It’s possible to overclock a crematorium

Apparently it's not since you just cause them to break in the process. Good job you discovered an article that disproves your special hitler magic cremation ideas. I guess you never took a ceramics glass in school otherwise you'd know how hard it is to repeatedly heat and cool a very high temp oven it is without breaking.

and a bystander who noticed that the so-called “ceramics kiln” was actually a crematorium with multiple bodies in a single muffle at any given time complained that the smell and the smoke was exactly like what he saw and smelled at Auschwitz.

I guess you don't live anywhere near a slaughterhouse, since you can smell them for miles on a hot humid day.

This funeral director actually burned down one crematorium built around the turn of the century after stuffing 38 bodies inside 2 muffles; in response he opened up a clandestine crematorium, which was the one that got busted.

So your big evidence that you can burn multiple bodies at once is a mortician who tried and failed multiple times? No one debates you can stick multiple bodies in an oven. It's that even doing that you still can't cremate the numbers required, since we have a start and end date of when it took place and the number that were supposedly cremated doesn't add up in reality. So thanks for proving us right again. You can't strain the ovens for long periods of time without them constantly breaking down due to the thermal shock. Which means you need even more ovens to account for the lack of efficiency.

But, even if you allow that the technology might have improved (fuel would not have, unless this crematorium runs on fission power) this guy still was able to run his crematorium, which was designed to hold one body, into holding 10+ at a time and running the crematoriums 24 hours a day. His main motivation: saving money and time. Oops.

Hey look you are dishonest with your arguments again. Or you are just so routinely stupid you have no idea how things actually work. I'm betting on both. See high temperature devices have to be carefully ramped up and down in temperature because the thermal shock literally tears things apart. Try putting a cold glass in hot water some time and see what happens.

The evidence suggests that the Germans continually pushed their crematoriums to the limit, and were continually building new ones until they started demolishing the death camps. When there was too much overflow the Germans just burned bodies in open pits, or let them sit around for awhile.

Or they just used them normally and they broke down like they normally do, you have to prove they were shoving more people in at once, not just speculating. And saying the numbers don't work unless they did this is also speculation. We know they had rampant typhus outbreaks killing hundreds of thousands, did you expect them to be buried? So there being crematorium isn't evidence for anything holocaust related besides body disposal which has multiple meanings.

Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematorium?

A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

Did he see the gas chamber or did he see the cold storage building? He later speculated it must be the gas chamber because he was told that is what it was. They don't go into any more detail, so its useless.

 

[JohnDoe]

Or they just used them normally and they broke down like they normally do

Maybe there were some really obese Jews that the Nazis forcefed like geese, and the Sonnderkommandos put too many of them in at once which overloaded the crematoriums, even though they were designed by extra evil Nazi science to use fat Jews as fuel! I mean, not even Nazi technology can handle that much of an obese Jew overload, and as we all know so many of them in wartime were practically perambulatory lard balloons. Those Nazis sure are goofy, huh?

Did he see the gas chamber or did he see the cold storage building? He later speculated it must be the gas chamber because he was told that is what it was. They don't go into any more detail, so its useless.

Bones, you have to understand the gravity and undeniable proof of someone's coworker's former roommate's hairdresser's mechanic's second cousin vaguely recalling something told to them by an unknown third party some countless years ago! That kind of testimony is worth more than any tangible forensic evidence!

 

[Bonesjones]

Bones, you have to understand the gravity and undeniable proof of someone's coworker's former roommate's hairdresser's mechanic's second cousin vaguely recalling something told to them by an unknown third party some countless years ago! That kind of testimony is worth more than any tangible forensic evidence!

Its funny because the article says so much by what they don't say. He says they had 60 people prepared and he personally saw 6 cremated. He doesn't say they cremated multiples at once. So we know he watched them put 3 corpses in 2 times to ensure proper functionality. He also doesn't say how long he waited. He doesn't mention seeing any train loads of people being shoved into the gas chamber, he doesn't mention any of the other things that we know had to happen to make the holocaust narrative work.

I did field technician work for almost a decade. You know when places are busy because people are always intentionally or unintentionally breathing down your neck to get things working because they have shit to do.

So he sees 60 bodies and mentions no urgency, so clearly these 60 are the people who died and couldn't be cremated until it was fixed, contrasted to, these are the 60 people ready to be cremated that day.

Again and again, they try to piecemeal evidence saying it proves this and that. They forget to take account into the bigger context of what things mean. "I saw 60 bodies" sounds shocking and evil to most people. "I saw 60 bodies" when you should see 1000 means someone didn't plug the holes in their story correctly. Or they just gloss over the whole thing and pretend like it fits.

 

[Stan]

Good find bro. Also relevant is the document Chugger found about all the workers that were needed to collect wood for cremation at Auschwitz, insofar as this document shows that the cremas were used at maximal capacity and also corroborates witness statements about open-air cremations.

The big problem these blockheads have is that they think you can determine the fuel requirements of the cremas a priori. They believe they can determine how much fuel the cremas needed without looking into specific cremation methods and innovations in fuel efficiency, based only on assumptions about the number of corpses and the weight of the avg corpse, etc.

The basic flaw here is that they mistakenly conflate energy (a requirement for the amount of energy needed in cremation could be inferred a priori, given a few assumptions) with fuel. This is mistaken because fuel is not energy, just a source of energy. The other salient source of energy in cremation is heat, and methods of cremation that retain more heat are going to be more fuel efficient.

A secondary flaw in their "reasoning" is that they implicitly assume that cremas at Auschwitz must have ran in a similar way as commercial cremations.

However, cremation at Auschwitz aimed at burning as many corpses as quickly as possible. This is a different aim than commercial cremation, which is legally required to cremate bodies in such a way that respects the dignity of the dead. Therefore more fuel-efficient methods, such as running the cremas continuously all day and burning multiple bodies at once, were available at Auschwitz than are available at comercial cremas.

I have tried to explain this to them but they are just too stupid. Maybe we should leave them to their fantasy world where they have made some massive epistemological breakthrough. Nobody outside of here and other hubs for Holocaust denial (CODOH) will take them seriously so it is rather cruel to continue mocking them.

Ty, I’m happy to share it here. Other factors could also affect crematorium efficiency (eg cold weather) but I think the discrepancy they deniers note between expected fuel needed and actual is mostly the result of cramming and not allowing the masonry to cool (the step that will require the most energy per unit mass.)

The David Sconce case is telling; his motivation was to undercut his competition in price, so in order to make his own business profitable he began running his own crematorium by substandard methods. It evidently works, given Sconce was convicted of routinely disposing of 12+ bodies into one muffle, then returning mixed remains to the families. According to the Soviet interviews with Topf and Sons staff who serviced the cremas at Auschwitz, those crematoria were pushed to the limit just like Sconce’s.

If anyone hits paywalls with the content I uploaded I am also happy to archive it to the thread.

ETA: I also want to bring up the issue of moisture. I think we all know dry wood burns more easily than wet, right? And photographs of liberated camps contain these terrible images of bodies stacked up everywhere waiting to be cremated. I would conclude that a body which has been air-drying for a few days will have lost enough liquid that it would probably require less energy to burn. And some of these people weighed 90lbs alive; which is also going to reduce burn time and fuel needs for bodies.

Im going to count the threads on my tzitzis for awhile. This corpse cremation burn rate math makes me feel like a Nazi myself.

 

[Bonesjones]

Ty, I’m happy to share it here. Other factors could also affect crematorium efficiency (eg cold weather) but I think the discrepancy they deniers note between expected fuel needed and actual is mostly the result of cramming and not allowing the masonry to cool (the step that will require the most energy per unit mass.)

The temp differentiation between freezing and a hot summer day doesn't really matter much when you have to get a giant thermal mass to 1000 degrees. It matters even less when you'd keep it at a lower baseline temperature that's still massively higher than ambient Temps. Guess you've never worked any place with an industrial oven before. Since they basically just run at 200 or 300 degrees constantly and crank the heat up during actual usage. Since again thermal shock destroys them. The holes in your practical knowledge could fill a planet.

The David Sconce case is telling; his motivation was to undercut his competition in price, so in order to make his own business profitable he began running his own crematorium by substandard methods. It evidently works, given Sconce was convicted of routinely disposing of 12+ bodies into one muffle, then returning mixed remains to the families. According to the Soviet interviews with Topf and Sons staff who serviced the cremas at Auschwitz, those crematoria were pushed to the limit just like Sconce’s.

Hey look you dodged everything I said so you could pretend he says something else. Good job Rabbi. His problem was committing a crime and wanting no one to see. Not that he couldn't keep repairing and using his other crematory. Funny how his search for more and more efficiency lead to using other forms of cremation, wonder why the Nazis didn't do the same thing.

If anyone hits paywalls with the content I uploaded I am also happy to archive it to the thread.

You are supposed to archive everything you post here as a matter of practice, retard.

ETA: I also want to bring up the issue of moisture. I think we all know dry wood burns more easily than wet, right? And photographs of liberated camps contain these terrible images of bodies stacked up everywhere waiting to be cremated. I would conclude that a body which has been air-drying for a few days will have lost enough liquid that it would probably require less energy to burn. And some of these people weighed 90lbs alive; which is also going to reduce burn time and fuel needs for bodies.

Yeah they were overwhelmed by the number of people dying of Typhus, not that they could gas more people than they could cremate. Infact all those corpses show the telltale signs of Typhus and not of being gassed. Wow wonder why!

You retards always try to dodge basic science by talking about soft tissue, which is never the problem. You can remove soft tissue from a skeleton at less than 1/4th the temp required to cremate a skeleton. You know the actual difficult part of cremation. Throwing more skeletons into a pile to burn doesn't change the amount of heat needed to cremate bone. It only changes the amount of waste heat lost. This is why your retarded thermodynamics arguments are pointless. You don't even know what you are arguing and why.

Im going to count the threads on my tzitzis for awhile. This corpse cremation burn rate math makes me feel like a Nazi myself.

I thought you were a Christian, Rabbi? Guess we were on the money when we called you a cryptojew. You can't even "fellow white people" correctly.