The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

Nice confirmation bias. It proves they had the motive, the means, and the will to do it. Just because they were unsuccessful doesn't mean they weren't successful in other cases.

Ok let's take this one item at a time.

Are you saying that they failed to cover up killing 20k Poles, a top secret, one time only operation, but could have been reasonably successful in covering up all evidence of mass resettlement , something that would have involved millions of people being fed, supplied, housed over a period of years?

I would estimate, conservatively, that the latter operation would generate 100,000 x more evidence that would need to be destroyed.

 

[Bonesjones]

Ok let's take this one item at a time.

Are you saying that they failed to cover up killing 20k Poles, a top secret, one time only operation, but could have been reasonably successful in covering up all evidence of mass resettlement , something that would have involved millions of people being fed, supplied, housed over a period of years?

I would estimate, conservatively, that the latter operation would generate 100,000 x more evidence that would need to be destroyed.

So if one murder is incredibly hard to cover up, that means all murders are incredibly hard to cover up. So that means the Nazis had a 6 million times harder crime to cover up. Yet you still can't produce the bodies. Ponderous.


Oh you mean that only works one way. Another curiosity in your thought process. It's almost like you start with your narrative first and attempt to apply facts that agree with it and ignore the ones that don't.

Its not as if the Soviet Union was known for constantly revising its own history nor killing tens of millions of its own people both on accident and on purpose.

Its like the opposite of Stalin instead of a picture with people disappearing. It's a camp with the piles of corpses growing except there was never a pile of corpses.

 

[CowPox]

Why did they use poison gas for the supposed mass executions? Why not drown them in a large cage at a lake or in a pool? Seems alot more efficient and clean than an elaborate gas chamber?

 

[Chugger]

So that means the Nazis had a 6 million times harder crime to cover up.

They tried to cover it up but they weren't successful, leaving behind thousands of blatantly genocidal and deeply suspicious documents

There was also physical remains (ashes, bone) left at all the killing sites.

If you're looking for autopsies showing gassed victims, it's hard to determine cause of death for someone buried in the ground for months or years (like the gas van victims were), but there is the case of Natzweiler - Struthof

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/klarsfeld/Struthof/T001.shtml

Every part of this operation is evidenced, from documents showing the transport of the prisoners to this site, to the bodies themselves which were preserved so cause of death could be determined

It's almost like you start with your narrative first and attempt to apply facts that agree with it and ignore the ones that don't.

No actually this is what you do, because you have no evidence for any of your claims

Why not drown them in a large cage at a lake or in a pool? Seems alot more efficient and clean than an elaborate gas chamber?

how do you get them to jump in? how long does it take for a good swimmer to drown? you would have to shoot them, which defeats the purpose.

 

[Bonesjones]

They tried to cover it up but they didn't, leaving behind thousands of blatantly genocidal and deeply suspicious documents

There was also physical remains (ashes, bone) left at all the killing sites.

Oh man they tried to cover it up and failed, I guess that means they'll never do it again. Lesson learned!

If you're looking for autopsies showing gassed victims, it's hard to determine cause of death for someone buried in the ground for months or years (like the gas van victims were), but there is the case of Natzweiler - Struthof

You never even proved gas vans existed under the Nazis.

Every part of this operation is evidenced, from documents showing the transport of the patients to this site, to the bodies themselves which were preserved so cause of death could be determined

No its not. Otherwise you could post it here.

No actually this is what you do, because you have no evidence for any of your claims

You still haven't begun to show evidence for your impossible theory. Remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

how do you get them to jump in? how long does it take for a good swimmer to drown? you would have to shoot them, which defeats the purpose.

He literally said cage, you know fill it up,drop it in water, let them drown in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Move on?

Why would they use delousing agents to gas jews anyway, they could just use their copious amounts of leftover gas from ww1. Hitler was against using gas due to his personal experience? Hmm.

 

[Chugger]

No its not. Otherwise you could post it here.

photos and documents are in the album

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/klarsfeld/Struthof/T001.shtml

He literally said cage, you know fill it up,drop it in water, let them drown in less than 2 or 3 minutes. Move on?

Why would they use delousing agents to gas jews anyway, they could just use their copious amounts of leftover gas from ww1.

Yeah I didn't read that. So they ask Jews to get into a huge cage near a lake, then push it in using heavy machinery? That's less elaborate than gassing people in an an enclosed space? you can literally create a gas chamber by running your car in your garage with the doors closed.

zyklon b 's main ingredient is HCN, which has been used in gas chambers for prisoner executions in the US

 

[mgc]

photos and documents are in the album

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/klarsfeld/Struthof/T001.shtml


Yeah I didn't read that. So they ask Jews to get into a huge cage near a lake, then push it in using heavy machinery? That's less elaborate than gassing people in an an enclosed space? you can literally create a gas chamber by running your car in your garage with the doors closed.

zyklon b 's main ingredient is HCN, which has been used in gas chambers for prisoner executions in the US

I would like to see zo respond to these images, and to explain why if the Auschwitz brass cared about the well-being of their Jewish slaves, that they would send these Jews to Natzweiler to be gassed.

 

[Fentanyl Floyd]

yeah I should be doing better considering how weak the revisionist case is (they have no evidence for anything), but they're like the black knight from monty python--as long as they stay confident and maintain their poise they can trick themselves and each other into believing they're doing well

but in the end I'll always have rapechu, and no one will be able to take that away from me. there's few examples of deniers getting turned like that, and as far as I know in each case it happened behind the scenes

we witnessed a miracle

צ'אגר! זה הבוס שלך שמדבר. הניסיונות שלך לשכנע את הגויים האלה שהשואה קרה הם מעוררי רחמים. אתה על קרח דק, שמוק. עוד דפוק אחד ואינך

 

[JohnDoe]

So the gas chambers had ;

Children.
Elderly.
Adults so sick they could not be treated in hospital.

So who carried them all in? How did you fill a room with them?

Did you carry the stretcher in, then tip it over, spilling the elderly jew? Or did you lay down the stretcher and put another stretcher down next to it?

What about all the little rascals running around through your legs and back out the doors? Did you give them a clip round the ear when they were being naughty about getting gassed?

Olonzo, you silly man! You forgot about all the fat Jews from the Netherlands used to fuel the crematoriums! You just have the chunky Heebs who could otherwise work carry in the sick ones and afterward the fatties jam the door so the kids can't scamper out. It all makes perfect sense if you start from the Holocaust conclusion and work backwards.

 

[mgc]

Olonzo, you silly man! You forgot about all the fat Jews from the Netherlands used to fuel the crematoriums! You just have the chunky Heebs who could otherwise work carry in the sick ones and afterward the fatties jam the door so the kids can't scamper out. It all makes perfect sense if you start from the Holocaust conclusion and work backwards.

Such a silly post.

They did not 'request fat Jews for cremation.' They deported huge numbers of Jews from many different countries who came from different countries and circumstances, and Jews from the West were less starved. Out of the huge number of Jewish deportees, some (esp. from Western Europe) were not underweight.

According to the eyewitnesses, the most efficient way of burning the corpses (given that you had a mix of emaciated and heavier corpses) was to include non-emaciated ones alongside the standard emaciated ones. This was something that they discovered through trial and error, not through an SS order to 'send fat Jews for cremation.'

(Because you are a midwit incapable of nuanced thinking, you straw man this as me saying it is faster to burn multiple corpses together than to burn one alone. I am not saying this. I am saying that assuming you have to burn y total corpses, which includes a large number of emaciated and some heavier, it is more efficient to do it in z way, i.e. burning the heavier ones alongside the emaciated. The fuel from the burning of fat is a countervailing variable, but obviously it would still be easier to burn 2 corpses than 3, etc.)

And just because someone is not underweight does not mean he is able to work, you twat. An 80 year old cannot (leaving aside extreme statistical anomalies) work in heavy labor, regardless of his weight.

 

[mrolonzo]

Some transports were specifically and intentionally comprised of working Jews and were admitted as a matter of course upon arrival. Of course many of them were sick because of brutal treatment in transit. Indeed, the vast majority of Jews arriving at Auschwitz were sick including most "working Jews."

Because Mattogno aims to deceive he does not tell the reader any of this critical context when he discusses this document.

Regarding this specific transport, Mattogno provides no original primary source for it so I cannot do any research on it. He instead cites an obscure Polish secondary source (Blumental, 1946), which basically makes this hearsay by history standards. But even if Blumenthal was right, and Mattogno is accurately quoting Blumenthal (rather than cherry picking or misleadingly quoting him), this could have been one of the pre-curated transports of working Jews to which I am referring.

That there were apparently no children in this transport, but only men and women, is an indication that this transport was curated as a "working Jews" transport, rather than a transport of a bunch of random jews that would face a typical selection process.

Even from the information Mattogno provides, we can assume this transport is about working Jews. For example, I quote from Mattogno

"Of the 750 male prisoners, only 424 were found to be capable of working,
while the remainder of 326 prisoners were designated as unfit for work in the planned assignment to Labor Camps Buna and Neu-Dachs.
Of these 40% not-fully-fit-for-work prisoners, some must be placed in prisoners ’ quarters as well as in the recovery barracks . . .

Of the 750 female prisoners, 80 prisoners were designated as unfit for work,
which amounts to about 10% of the entire transport."

Notice the terms "unfit for work in the planned assignment" "not fully fit for work" and "recovery barracks." This transport is all about working Jews, and attempts to help them recover for labor. The fact that they are ill is unsurprising because almost everybody including working Jews would be ill after that transit. As I have said repeatedly the Nazis had to admit ill Jews as "working Jews" to meet their labor quotas. Because of how appallingly they had been treated in transit and in ghettos, etc, "able bodied Jews" often really meant the relatively less ill ones who were nevertheless still ill. The Nazis did, as we have discussed, provide limited health care to these slave laborers to enable them to recover and work.

Also note the perfectly symmetrical character of the transport - 1500 people, 750 men, 750 women (no children). This is obviously a pre-curated transport of working Jews meant to fulfill quotas of labor needs.

Ah yes. Now these transports are
"pre curated". The numbers are "too symmetrical ".

Was the following transport on the 11th also too symmetrical and "pre curated "?

And of course, every transport has to have children, elderly or those too infirm for treatment. Otherwise there's no one around to gas!!

Sources as given, page 84

"7) On July 11, 1943 a further exclusively Jewish transport of 1,331 prisoners from CC Lublin-Majdanek arrived in Auschwitz. The 763 men were registered with the numbers 128951–129713, the 568 women the numbers 49207–49774 (ibidem, p. 542)'.

Such a silly post.

They did not 'request fat Jews for cremation.' They deported huge numbers of Jews from many different countries who came from different countries and circumstances, and Jews from the West were less starved. Out of the huge number of Jewish deportees, some (esp. from Western Europe) were not underweight.

According to the eyewitnesses, the most efficient way of burning the corpses (given that you had a mix of emaciated and heavier corpses) was to include non-emaciated ones alongside the standard emaciated ones. This was something that they discovered through trial and error, not through an SS order to 'send fat Jews for cremation.'

(Because you are a midwit incapable of nuanced thinking, you straw man this as me saying it is faster to burn multiple corpses together than to burn one alone. I am not saying this. I am saying that assuming you have to burn y total corpses, which includes a large number of emaciated and some heavier, it is more efficient to do it in z way, i.e. burning the heavier ones alongside the emaciated. The fuel from the burning of fat is a countervailing variable, but obviously it would still be easier to burn 2 corpses than 3, etc.)

And just because someone is not underweight does not mean he is able to work, you twat. An 80 year old cannot (leaving aside extreme statistical anomalies) work in heavy labor, regardless of his weight.

Indeed. The chuck some fatties on the fire to keep her going routine.

 

[mgc]

While you say "sources as given," this is actually cited to an obscure 1946 Polish secondary source to which none of us have access (not a German original document), so it is little better than hearsay. But assuming this is quoted accurately and the secondary source is correct, it does appear as if it is another curated transport of designated workers, which Mattogno has cherrypicked.

Why do we know it was curated? Because there are no children. It is statistically inconceivable that a transport of 1,946 randomly Jews could have no children. Therefore we can infer that the transport was not randomly selected, i.e. was curated.

As noted many times, the idea of Jews being admitted into Auschwitz who could not work immediately, but could work following a period of rest and recovery and treatment (e.g. from the flu), is completely consistent with the "mainstream" story established at Nuremberg. It is also consistent with all medical witnesses, including Primo Levi of This is a Man and gentile Polish slave laborer Dr. Stefan Budziaszek, both of whom also confirmed that only "working" Jews received health care and that Jews who could not recover from their illnesses were taken away and gassed.

Mattagno's work is not some dramatic revisionist discovery. It is the product of the 1943 policy change in which the Germans became desperate for slave labor and decided to preserve their slave laborers for a time to get some actual productivity out of them, rather than letting them waste away rapidly as even Mattogno concedes they had before.

It also makes sense. Sick slave laborers need health care to get back to work, and the Nazis needed productive slave labor for their war machine. Ergo . . .

That some Jews who were ill were nevertheless admitted into the camp as slave laborers may seem counter-intuitive. But then we have to recall that almost all the Jews were sick in some way after the brutal transit to Auschwitz in cattle cars. So to fulfill their labor quotas, they needed to select some "sick" Jews for labor - working-age Jews who e.g. had the flu or diarrhea and could recover with some rest, and then get to work for the Reich.

Still, the vast majority of Jews were killed asap after arrival, because they were either too old or young to work or could not recover from their maladies. This is ironically demonstrated by the census data provided by Mattogno, which shows that only a tiny percentage of Jews deported to Auschwitz were living at the camp as of 1943 and 1944. So where did the overwhelming majority of Jews deported to Auschwitz go?

On another note, you still have not answered my question about Natzweiler - why do you deny the gassings there given all the evidence including pictorial that we have shown you?

And the relevance of Natzweiler is that it completely discredits your absurd notion that the Auschwitz higher-ups cared about the well-being of the Jews, since if they did they would not send dozens of them to be gassed as part of some Nazi pseudoscience. Instead, health care was given to Jewish slave laborers out of ruthless pragmatism and the need for the Nazis to preserve their slave-laborers for war production.

 

[Blewberry Nausea]

Here’s the thing. Every time you prove Nazis killed people, apologizers double down. They what about, oh yeah well DID YOU PERSONALLY SEE ALL TWENTY MILLION DEAD RUSSIANS???, then they use stupid propaganda like Hitler kissing a baby and go ‘He was obviously just too pure for this world Bros!!!’

Nah not playing it. When you have a smoking gun like a video of the meeting where all Jews in Europe decided to play pretend let me know. Otherwise get smoked either by a firebomb or go out like der funnyman.

 

[Lemmingwise]

When you have a smoking gun like a video of the meeting where all Jews in Europe decided to play pretend let me know.

Sounds like a very reasonable standard of evidence.

 

[Blewberry Nausea]

Sounds like a very reasonable standard of evidence.

I mean even if you had a fireside chat with FDR that said ‘when we fake this shit about Uews being genocided you are gonna see how much America will win!’

I mean that’s the same metric deniers ask for right? Documentation? Stalin and Israel plan this on the down low?

 

[Lemmingwise]

I mean even if you had a fireside chat with FDR that said ‘when we fake this shit about Uews being genocided you are gonna see how much America will win!’

I mean that’s the same metric deniers ask for right? Documentation? Stalin and Israel plan this on the down low?

I guess I'd like a standard where historians, researchers and reporters aren't politically persecuted for asking questions, publishing books and organizing talks.

Perhaps that would set my mind at ease that honest truthfinding has room to take place, instead of being forced to accept a story wholesale that has a number of lies pierced through the years by these wrongthinkers.

 

[Blewberry Nausea]

I guess I'd like a standard where historians, researchers and reporters aren't politically persecuted for asking questions, publishing books and organizing talks.

Perhaps that would set my mind at ease that honest truthfinding has room to take place, instead of being forced to accept a story wholesale that has a number of lies pierced through the years by these wrongthinkers.

Never happen. Not with the holocaust, not with ww2, hell not even with something apolitical like the Titanic sinking. There will always be an angle and a bias because humans are groupthink social animals and there is power in controlling that.

 

[Michael Janke]

im not saying it didn't happen, but lets look at one objective fact.

black people in america got screwed over, native americans got screwed over, aboriginals in australia got screwed over, indians got screwed over by btits. not only did they all get screwed, it was harder and longer than jews did. yet jews are the only one where you can go to prison for denying it. what does that tell you?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Never happen. Not with the holocaust, not with ww2, hell not even with something apolitical like the Titanic sinking. There will always be an angle and a bias because humans are groupthink social animals and there is power in controlling that.

Pretty strong argument in favor of history being misremembered.

 

[Blewberry Nausea]

Pretty strong argument in favor of history being misremembered.

Yes but that’s a far leap from misremembering to outright forging. Not many people even doubt Jesus’ existence and he had MAGIC POWERS reportedly. Or the existence of Mount Sinai