The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

Okay Zo. I am going to try to address your argument by formally mapping it out, and then going after the premises and the conclusion. If I misunderstood one of your premises please let me know.

Your argument, as I understand it :

1) The Nazis expanded health care at Auschwitz in 1943, including for Jews
2) This shows that the Nazis cared about the well-being of the Jews.
3) You do not mass-murder people whose well-being you value
4) Therefore, the Nazis did not mass murder the Jews at Auschwitz.

My response
1) Yes, but the health care was only for the small minority of Jews, i.e. "working Jews" who could both recover fromr illness AND once recovered engage in labor, as all the documentary evidence (despite Mattogno's attempt to misrepresent it, which I gave an example of above) shows. In other words, Jews who were upon arrival "selected" by Mengele and other SS doctors as unfit for labor never received health care, and were killed.
2) It does not show that, but instead shows that they were desperate for more labor and production of war-related material after disasters on the Eastern Front, etc.
3) You do mass murder people whose lives you do not value and whose existence, from your perspective, simply drains up much-needed resources. I.E. you do murder non-working Jews, who were the vast majority deported to Auschwitz. And this is what all the evidence (building records, forensic evidence, eyewitness testimony, documents) indicates happened.
4) All the evidence indicates that they did.


Regarding premise 2, that the Nazis cared about the well-being of Jews, I should add there is ironclad documentary proof that in 1943, the Auschwitz brass selected and shipped off 79 Jews from the camp to be gassed at Natzweiler, for some crackpot attempt to assemble a Jewish skeleton collection. See https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/klarsfeld/Struthof/. The bodies of the victims were found by the Western Allies and autopsied by Camille Simonin. So there goes your (perverse) premise that the Auschwitz brass cared about the Jews.

1. The transport of 8th July 43 showed you. Most were work capable or nearly so. All registered. Non gassed. You've already agreed that information is legitimate.
2. So desperate and yet so evil they literally released Jews.
3. You do not murder Jews when you also want them to work, moreover it's against orders. This is what all the evidence building records, forensic evidence, eyewitness testimony, documents indicates happened. We can discuss any of the technical details any time you like. Pressac would be a good starting point.
4. None of the evidence indicates mass murder.


You should be embarrassed at trying to throw in Stutthof to throw us off discussion of the details around alleged gassings at AB. But of course you won't be.

 

[Bonesjones]

if the average worker at Auschwitz received 1500 calories worth and there were 100,000 workers, they would need to be fed 150 mil calories per day. the 900 sonderkommando might use an extra 3000 each, so we are looking at an extra 2.7 mil. that's 1.8% extra, and only for a few months since this amount of workers were basically only needed during the summer of 44 for the hungarian deportation.

That's the adjustment you need to see? 1.8% more food supplies during the summer of 44? Given the fragmentary records that exist this is not a reasonable expectation, unless you are a buffoon grasping at the smallest straws known to man

You don't think an increase of 2% of 150 million would be noticeable and accounted for in writing? That just so doesn't exist. Hmm. That's like restaurant levels of food a day being disappeared. Guess you've never worked at one of those either. Peculiar.

Actually I've always said the same thing about the crematories and pits at Auschwitz, but you're free to look through my posts and prove me wrong.

You're just babbling because you have no real argument. but keep on doing it, I'm sure it's amusing for everyone

Lol the ol "I'm rubber you're glue" argument.

But Levi could and did observe that the people treated in the hospital were all working Jews, excluding the vast majority who were never selected for labor. And he also knew that slave laborers who could not recover in the hospital were taken away and never seen again.

Labor camps generally don't keep nonlaborers around beyond waiting for transit. Even more so when it's disease ravaged. So it's easy to justify the argument that they were exported to other camps or farther. You know like they said they did.

are you saying if the gassings were real the Germans wouldn't have tried to keep them apart for this reason?

If the gassings were real you wouldn't want your corpse disposal unit interacting with the general population, even if they were just tossing dead typhus bodies into crematory, just like they said they did. Since, you know they are a huge vector for disease.

What about all the little rascals running around through your legs and back out the doors? Did you give them a clip round the ear when they were being naughty about getting gassed?

They had clowns lead them into the gas chambers who got out before they gassed all the kids, like in the hit documentary "The Day the Clown Cried"

Question for thread: If a “resettlement” policy contains exterminatory components (shootings for minor infractions, overcrowded ghettos, starvation, deportation in inhumane conditions, rampant disease) as present in the Nazi “resettlement” can you really call it a resettlement program? Even if you ignore the exterminations, Jews under “resettlement” were treated way worse than murderers in prison.

Rumors start that people in transit are going to be killed, so people start to get nervous and agitated, causing disorder, disorder leads to riots. Riots leads to suppression, suppression leads to more rumors. Wow look at that self fulfilling prophesy.

One thing I struggle to understand; it’s not like Nazis are moral paragons except for the Holocaust. They did plenty of other horrible things (Aktion T4, forced sterilizations, forced abortion, “”resettlement”” atrocities.) So even if denialists were wildly successful it’s not as if the reputation of Nazis is spotless.

What is the benefit of attempting to polish this turd? Do the deniers in this thread want to make National Socialism Great Again? Or are they just mad that their teacher made them go on a field trip to a Holocaust museum?

Literally every country is guilty of the above.

My experience is that trying to show primary sources to a Holocaust denier is like feeding an angry baby. You can break your information down into bite size pieces and offer one by one on a little spoon, but there are citations and white papers and primary sources all over the highchair tray, and nothing has actually been digested.

Except you keep trying to feed babies soylent and it keeps rejecting what you feed it because it's bullshit, but you obviously know better, so you keep trying to shove it in while it rejects it. So you have the police hold it down so you can stuff it in its mouth because it's so true and so good for them if only they'd take it.

 

[mgc]

You should be embarrassed at trying to throw in Stutthof. But of course you won't be.

Why exactly is it embarrassing? That the Auschwitz brass sent off 79 Jews to be murdered in 1943—for the sake of some crackpot Nazi "scientific" study of Jewish bodies—makes no sense if you believe they cared about the welfare of the Jews. The expansion of health care in 1943 has to be explained some other way than concern for the Jews' well-being.

Fortunately, we have a very logical alternative explanation that is in accord with the documentary and eyewitness evidence - that they were giving health care to Jews who could recover and get back to work for their war effort, while simultaneously killing Jews who by reason of grave health conditions or age could not be used as labor (the vast majority).

Regarding gassings at Natzweiler, there is ironclad documentary support that this happened. We have documents showing the study being proposed, the shipment of Jews from Auschwitz to Natzweiler, the deaths of these Jews shortly thereafter, the existence and installation of the gas chamber, etc. After the war the Western Allies found many of the victims and autopsies were performed showing they were gassed.

ffs, the Natzweiler gas chamber still exists today. Denier David Cole has seen it. My guess is that the gas chamber and damning, explicit paper trail there was not destroyed because the gassing operation was so comparatively small.

One thing I do agree with you on is that we should discuss Pressac. Tomorrow I will be back here, we can do that then.

 

[Stan]

Okay Zo. I am going to try to address your argument by formally mapping it out, and then going after the premises and the conclusion. If I misunderstood one of your premises please let me know.

Your argument, as I understand it :

1) As Mattogno shows, the Nazis expanded health care at Auschwitz in 1943, including for Jews

2) This shows that the Nazis cared about the well-being of the Jews.

3) You do not mass-murder people whose well-being you value

4) Therefore, the Nazis did not mass murder the Jews at Auschwitz.

My response

1) This is true but presented by Mattogno in a grotesquely misleading, context-free way. The vast majority of Jews sent to Auschwitz—who were upon arrival "selected" by Mengele or other SS doctors as unfit for labor, and then according to me and mainstream historians sent to the gas chambers—obviously did not receive health care. The "jewish" health care systems established and improved in 1943 were intended for working Jews who could recover from their illnesses and get back to work for the Reich. To try to mislead you, the sneaky Mattogno conflates working Jews who could recover from their illnesses with non-working Jews. But a closer examination of his documents shows that the "ill" and "non-able bodied" Jews being referred to are laborers whom the Nazis are trying to get back to work.

2) It does not show that, but instead shows that they were desperate for more labor and production of war-related material after disasters on the Eastern Front, Stalingrad, etc.

3) You do mass murder people whose lives you do not value and whose existence, from your perspective, simply drains up much-needed resources. I.E. you do murder non-working Jews, who were the vast majority deported to Auschwitz. And this is what all the evidence (building records, forensic evidence, contemporaneous documents referring to the goings-on at the camp, eyewitness testimony) indicates happened.

4) All the evidence indicates that they murdered non-working Jews systematically at Auschwitz.


Regarding premise 2, that the Nazis cared about the well-being of Jews, I should add there is ironclad documentary proof that in 1943, at the same time the Nazis were expanding health care at Auschwitz (supposedly for benevolent reasons), the Auschwitz brass selected and shipped off 79 Jews from the camp to be gassed at Natzweiler, for some crackpot attempt to assemble a Jewish skeleton collection. See https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/klarsfeld/Struthof/ for the absolutely ironclad and explicit chain of documents. (Which one assumes were not destroyed because the gassing operation was so small compared to the others.)

The bodies of many of these victims were found by the Western Allies and autopsied by Camille Simonin, who determined them to be victims of homocidal gassing. So there goes your (perverse) premise that the Auschwitz brass cared about the Jews.

Worth noting that Lazaretts (the camp infirmaries for inmates) were worse than and not to be confused with the officers’ infirmary,
Lazaretts were more or less a place sick people in the camps could finish dying. If it got too full officers would shoot the people already there to make some room. Medical supplies and medicine were minimal, and the doctors/nurses there were drawn from the camps own population.

So Lazaretts didn’t provide much healthcare. (What healthcare would have been provided was done so by inmate doctors/nurses, not SS ones.) Like History Speaks already described, medicine was sometimes given to Jews who could work, but not for those who couldn’t (excepting any Mengele-level atrocities, which would be barmy to describe as healthcare.)

It’s also worth considering that the camps contained privileged Jews (Kapos) who enjoyed a slightly better lot than the other Jewish inmates, as well as other classes of prisoners like political prisoners, POWs, homosexuals. These groups would have been preferentially treated including the provision of medicine. But in general the Nazis were strapped for supplies 1940-45 and weren’t going to waste anything on Jews. Even food was sold to the ghetto at a huge markup to part the Jews from the money they had left. The “useless mouths” were starved to death and left to disease in concentration camps and whoever was left got shipped to the death camps.

The narrative of caring Nazis providing the Jews good healthcare flies in the face of all evidence we have about Jews in the Third Reich, which was happy to starve Jews, work them to death, overcrowd them in ghettos without heating fuel, forced Jews to work for no pay in German factories, allowed camp inmates to be shot or hanged for minor infractions, deport them in cattle cars, and generally abuse them til they died. There was no mercy, just increasing degrees of negligence to human need, then outright cruelty, until we get to “fuck it, just gas them all”.

 

[mgc]

The narrative of caring Nazis providing the Jews good healthcare flies in the face of all evidence we have about Jews in the Third Reich, which was happy to starve Jews, work them to death, overcrowd them in ghettos without heating fuel, forced Jews to work for no pay in German factories, allowed camp inmates to be shot or hanged for minor infractions, deport them in cattle cars, and generally abuse them til they died. There was no mercy, just increasing degrees of negligence to human need, then outright cruelty, until we get to “fuck it, just gas them all”.

They were certainly happy to do these things, and health care was obviously never "good" at Auschwitz, much less for the Jewish slave laborers.

But it is true that in 1943 and 1944 at Auschwitz, the Nazis wanted to make more efficient use of their slave labor than they had in the past. Why? For the sake of war production.

That meant expanding the Monowitz hospital, for example, to ensure that slave laborers did not die right away.

But of course this was all done for pragmatic purposes, - to make efficient use of the slave-labor force at a time the Germans were desperate for labor. Non-working Jews were gassed immediately, as were working Jews who could not recover in the hospital.

 

[Stan]

They were certainly happy to do these things, and health care was obviously never "good" at Auschwitz, much less for the Jewish slave laborers.

But it is true that in 1943 and 1944 at Auschwitz, the Nazis wanted to make more efficient use of their slave labor than they had in the past. Why? For the sake of war production.

That meant expanding the Monowitz hospital, for example, to ensure that slave laborers did not die right away.

But of course this was all done for pragmatic purposes, - to make efficient use of the slave-labor force at a time the Germans were desperate for labor. Non-working Jews were gassed immediately, as were working Jews who could not recover in the hospital.

Yeah, as the German economic situation grew more dire the labor potential of Jews became more strategically important. But just as important was getting rid of “useless mouths”, and ultimately even very productive Jews were headed for death because Nazis viewed them as bearing the seed of communism.

The Łódź ghetto Judenrat leader, Chaim rumkowski, thought it could be possible to get his people through the war by making themselves as productive a labor pool as possible. Rumkowski willingly gave up ghetto residents who couldn’t work for deportation to Auschwitz, but in the end even the workers and finally Rumkowski himself was liquidated. Rumkowski got through selection but was beaten to death by other Jews on arrival for his behavior in the ghetto (in particular, for deporting all of its children in an earlier liquidation.)

 

[mgc]

But just as important was getting rid of “useless mouths”,

Definitely true.

But at the Reinhardt camps even the vast majority of able bodied Jews were simply murdered. The Einsatzgruppen did the same thing with the Jews they encountered, with tiny exceptions just murdered all of them.

By 1943 with Auschwitz becoming the new center of mass murder, a considerably larger proportion of Jews were being selected for labor than had been in the past. This was still a minority - most Jews arriving at Auschwitz were not selected for labor and killed asap after arrival. But still the proportion selected for labor was much higher than it had been with earlier deportations to death camps.

There is a whole paper trail from the SS showing that they wanted an expansion of slave labor, and they needed more Jewish laborers to fill that void.

Moreover, those Jews who were slave laborers were being "preserved" (with highly limited food, lodging, and health care) so they could last longer than the slave laborers had in the past, who (at a time where Germany was confident in its victory) had just wasted away.

Again this was done with an eye to maintaning the labor capacity demanded by the SS. Jews deemed unfit for work (the vast majority) were murdered.

 

[mrolonzo]

Why exactly is it embarrassing? That the Auschwitz brass sent off 79 Jews to be murdered in 1943—for the sake of some crackpot Nazi "scientific" study of Jewish bodies—makes no sense if you believe they cared about the welfare of the Jews. The expansion of health care in 1943 has to be explained some other way than concern for the Jews' well-being.

Fortunately, we have a very logical alternative explanation that is in accord with the documentary and eyewitness evidence - that they were giving health care to Jews who could recover and get back to work for their war effort, while simultaneously killing Jews who by reason of grave health conditions or age could not be used as labor (the vast majority).

Regarding gassings at Natzweiler, there is ironclad documentary support that this happened. We have documents showing the study being proposed, the shipment of Jews from Auschwitz to Natzweiler, the deaths of these Jews shortly thereafter, the existence and installation of the gas chamber, etc. After the war the Western Allies found many of the victims and autopsies were performed showing they were gassed.

ffs, the Natzweiler gas chamber still exists today. Denier David Cole has seen it. My guess is that the gas chamber and damning, explicit paper trail there was not destroyed because the gassing operation was so comparatively small.

One thing I do agree with you on is that we should discuss Pressac. Tomorrow I will be back here, we can do that then.

Because you're throwing in an item to buttress your case when you dont know if I even accept that.

You literally didn't think about that did you?

Worth noting that Lazaretts (the camp infirmaries for inmates) were worse than and not to be confused with the officers’ infirmary,
Lazaretts were more or less a place sick people in the camps could finish dying. If it got too full officers would shoot the people already there to make some room. Medical supplies and medicine were minimal, and the doctors/nurses there were drawn from the camps own population.

So Lazaretts didn’t provide much healthcare. (What healthcare would have been provided was done so by inmate doctors/nurses, not SS ones.) Like History Speaks already described, medicine was sometimes given to Jews who could work, but not for those who couldn’t (excepting any Mengele-level atrocities, which would be barmy to describe as healthcare.)

It’s also worth considering that the camps contained privileged Jews (Kapos) who enjoyed a slightly better lot than the other Jewish inmates, as well as other classes of prisoners like political prisoners, POWs, homosexuals. These groups would have been preferentially treated including the provision of medicine. But in general the Nazis were strapped for supplies 1940-45 and weren’t going to waste anything on Jews. Even food was sold to the ghetto at a huge markup to part the Jews from the money they had left. The “useless mouths” were starved to death and left to disease in concentration camps and whoever was left got shipped to the death camps.

The narrative of caring Nazis providing the Jews good healthcare flies in the face of all evidence we have about Jews in the Third Reich, which was happy to starve Jews, work them to death, overcrowd them in ghettos without heating fuel, forced Jews to work for no pay in German factories, allowed camp inmates to be shot or hanged for minor infractions, deport them in cattle cars, and generally abuse them til they died. There was no mercy, just increasing degrees of negligence to human need, then outright cruelty, until we get to “fuck it, just gas them all”.

Utterly ridiculous. Mostly stories. No actual hard evidence. Dismissed.

They were certainly happy to do these things, and health care was obviously never "good" at Auschwitz, much less for the Jewish slave laborers.

But it is true that in 1943 and 1944 at Auschwitz, the Nazis wanted to make more efficient use of their slave labor than they had in the past. Why? For the sake of war production.

That meant expanding the Monowitz hospital, for example, to ensure that slave laborers did not die right away.

But of course this was all done for pragmatic purposes, - to make efficient use of the slave-labor force at a time the Germans were desperate for labor. Non-working Jews were gassed immediately, as were working Jews who could not recover in the hospital.

No non working jews were gassed. We've literally been over this. Now you're telling Stan ? What for? To run out the clock so no one can respond?

Yeah, as the German economic situation grew more dire the labor potential of Jews became more strategically important. But just as important was getting rid of “useless mouths”, and ultimately even very productive Jews were headed for death because Nazis viewed them as bearing the seed of communism.

The Łódź ghetto Judenrat leader, Chaim rumkowski, thought it could be possible to get his people through the war by making themselves as productive a labor pool as possible. Rumkowski willingly gave up ghetto residents who couldn’t work for deportation to Auschwitz, but in the end even the workers and finally Rumkowski himself was liquidated. Rumkowski got through selection but was beaten to death by other Jews on arrival for his behavior in the ghetto (in particular, for deporting all of its children in an earlier liquidation.)

Lmao. More stories.

Definitely true.

But at the Reinhardt camps even the vast majority of able bodied Jews were simply murdered. The Einsatzgruppen did the same thing with the Jews they encountered, with tiny exceptions just murdered all of them.

By 1943 with Auschwitz becoming the new center of mass murder, a considerably larger proportion of Jews were being selected for labor than had been in the past. This was still a minority - most Jews arriving at Auschwitz were not selected for labor and killed asap after arrival. But still the proportion selected for labor was much higher than it had been with earlier deportations to death camps.

There is a whole paper trail from the SS showing that they wanted an expansion of slave labor, and they needed more Jewish laborers to fill that void.

Moreover, those Jews who were slave laborers were being "preserved" (with highly limited food, lodging, and health care) so they could last longer than the slave laborers had in the past, who (at a time where Germany was confident in its victory) had just wasted away.

Again this was done with an eye to maintaning the labor capacity demanded by the SS. Jews deemed unfit for work (the vast majority) were murdered.

And even less evidence for this at the AR camps of course.

 

[Chugger]

You don't think an increase of 2% of 150 million would be noticeable and accounted for in writing? That just so doesn't exist. Hmm. That's like restaurant levels of food a day being disappeared. Guess you've never worked at one of those either. Peculiar.

well the camp population was also fluctuating drastically (due to transfers, new inmates, and deaths), so that's another thing to take into account, along with the fact that many records for the period have been lost. Nevertheless if you can show that on a monthly basis records exist accounting for all these changes, but no increased food for the SK, you might have a point. Good luck lol

I just read and educate. You should do better against us but you don't actually know very much so you can't. Your pontifications about what I should do are ridiculous and you know it. You won't have the courage to answer this particular point.

there is no evidence of a) resettlement, b) the Nazis maintaining Jews they didn't intend to employ, and c) conspiracy

since deniers have not found A or B in 70 years of document hunting all that's left is conspiracy. You should be able to uncover it by talking to the children of condemned Nazis or other supposed eyewitnesses that have remained silent.

 

[mgc]

The only two things of significance Mattogno's deceitful book demonstrate are -

1) A labor-starved Germany implemented in the desperate years of 1943 and 1944 a policy to expand health care for KL slave laborers, including Jewish slave laborers, who were dying at such a fast rate that they could not contribute to the German war effort. (This is completely in accord with mainstream history and the testimony of doctors at Nuremberg. Primo Levi, a famous early Holocaust survivor, wrote about this policy in his autobiography If This is a Man in 1947, but made clear it was only for working Jews, something Mattogno omits from his quoting of Levi).

2) Most Jews, even working Jews, arriving at Auschwitz were ill (because of their years of brutal treatment and the brutality of their transit), so many working Jews were sent to the hospital to recover their ability to work.

Neither of these things contradict the mainstream account of the Holocaust or Auschwitz.

Nor, and this is my most important point, do they contradict the fact that the vast majority of Jews—those classified as non-working Jews during selections—were killed as soon as possible upon arrival.

Note that Mattogno distorts the provision of health care to working but ill Jews (i.e Jewish slave laborers who could work again after being treated), to falsely imply that non-working Jewish toddlers, the very elderly, and the incurably ill (who amounted to the vast majority of deportees) were given health care.

But actually, his documents refer to health care for working Jews who are only temporarily not able to work because of sickness. Other documents refer to health care for non-Jews, and he just dishonestly implies they refer to Jews.

I would be interested to hear why you think Natzweiler gassings are fake, The proposed "research project", about Jewish anatomy, the transportation of the 79 Jews from Auschwitz to Natzweiler, the installation of the gas chamber, all of it, are extraordinarily well documented. Many of the dead were autopsied as having been gassed, and the gas chamber still exists today.

 

[mrolonzo]

well the camp population was also fluctuating drastically (due to transfers, new inmates, and deaths), so that's another thing to take into account, along with the fact that many records for the period have been lost. Nevertheless if you can show that on a monthly basis records exist accounting for all these changes, but no increased food for the SK, you might have a point. Good luck lol


there is no evidence of a) resettlement, b) the Nazis maintaining Jews they didn't intend to employ, and c) conspiracy

since deniers have not found A or B in 70 years of document hunting all that's left is conspiracy. You should be able to uncover it by talking to the children of condemned Nazis or other supposed eyewitnesses that have remained silent.

Go find a body and get back to us.

The two things Mattogno's deceitful book demonstrate are -

1) A labor-starved Germany implemented in the desperate years of 1943 and 1944 a policy to expand health care for KL slave laborers, including Jewish slave laborers, who were dying at an absurd rate. (This is completely in accord with mainstream history and the testimony of doctors at Nuremberg. Primo Levi, a famous early Holocaust survivor, wrote about this policy in his autobiography This is a Man in 1947, but made clear it was only for working Jews, something Mattogno omits from his quoting of Levi).

2) Most Jews, even working Jews, arriving at Auschwitz were ill (because of their years of brutal treatment and the brutality of their transit), so many working Jews were sent to the hospital to recover their ability to work.

Neither of these things contradict the mainstream account of the Holocaust or Auschwitz. Nor do they contradict the fact that non-working Jews were killed as soon as possible upon arrival.

Note that Mattogno distorts the provision of health care to working but ill Jews (i.e Jewish slave laborers who could work again after being treated), to falsely imply that non-working Jewish toddlers, the very elderly, and the incurably ill (who amounted to the vast majority of deportees) were given health care.

But actually, his documents refer to health care for working Jews who are only temporarily not able to work because of sickness. Other documents refer to health care for non-Jews, and he just dishonestly implies they refer to Jews.

I would be interested to hear why you think Natzweiler gassings are fake, The proposed "research project", about Jewish anatomy, the transportation of the 79 Jews from Auschwitz to Natzweiler, the installation of the gas chamber, all of it, are extraordinarily well documented. Many of the dead were autopsied as having been gassed, and the gas chamber still exists today.

This is a repeat post that was answered above. Basically spam.

 

[Bonesjones]

Its called consensus cracking, you get a handful of "people" to show up and agree with each other so it looks like their point of view is correct and you'd have to be an idiot to be contrary. It's just a forum sliding technique.

well the camp population was also fluctuating drastically (due to transfers, new inmates, and deaths), so that's another thing to take into account, along with the fact that many records for the period have been lost. Nevertheless if you can show that on a monthly basis records exist accounting for all these changes, but no increased food for the SK, you might have a point. Good luck lol

So you admit they were transferring people out? You admit records are lost but don't admit they could be exonerating? Do you think its possible they were destroyed on purpose because they were exonerating?

Oh look records that exist point to guilt and records that dont exist point to guilt. Everything is coming up holocaust somehow!

Neither of these things contradict the mainstream account of the Holocaust or Auschwitz. Nor does it contradict the fact that non-working Jews were killed as soon as possible upon arrival.

If you say all non-working jews are killed on arrival, and non working jews are not killed on arrival, but hospitalized to make into working jews. That directly contradicts what you say. There's no way around it.

 

[mgc]

If you say all non-working jews are killed on arrival, and non working jews are not killed on arrival, but hospitalized to make into working jews. That directly contradicts what you say. There's no way around it.

If you are quite dumb, yes, it appears to be an unresovable contradiction.

If you are a midwit or smarter, it is not a contradiction. Because you know there is a difference between on the one hand a 25 year old man with the flu and on the other hand a 25 year old paraplegic, or a 5 year old. You can call all three of these "non-working," but the first guy can be brought back into working condition easily, while the other two cannot work.

Mattogno's core technique in his book is to exploit the semantical confusion between Jews who were ill but could be brought back up to working strength (e.g. young Jews with the flu or diarrhea or ulcers), and kids, old people, and the hopelessly ill or impaired.

Again, because the Jews had been treated so horribly in the years leading up to the Nazi change of plans (to use more slave laborers, and preserve slave laborers longer) in 1943, the vast majority of Jews were non-working, i.e. they were either too young or old too work, or too ill and injured to recover and work. So this vast majority was gassed asap after arrival.

Even a great many of the working Jews were sick, because everybody would be sick after that transit, not to mention the years of ghettoization and starvation policy in central and Eastern Europe. Since almost everybody was sick, and the Nazis had to meet the labor quotas demanded by the SS, they needed to select a certain amount of sick Jews for labor. These Jews were not incurably sick and could recover. If they did not recover, they too were sent away and gassed.

Mattogno shows that working Jews (like my hypothetical 25 year old with the flu) were given health care, and then uses dishonest semantical and terminological games (with the term "non-able bodied") to falsely imply that Jewish 8-year olds and paraplegics and the elderly were given care.

 

[mrolonzo]

If you are quite dumb, yes, it appears to be an unresovable contradiction.

If you are a midwit or smarter, it is not a contradiction. Because you know there is a difference between one the on hand a 25 year old man with the flu and on the other hand a 25 year old paraplegic, or a 5 year old. You can call all three of these "non-working," but the first guy can be brought back into working condition easily, while the other two cannot work.

Mattogno's core technique in his book is to exploit the semantical confusion between Jews who were ill but could be brought back up to working strength (e.g. young Jews with the flu or diarrhea or ulcers), and kids, old people, and the hopelessly ill or impaired.

Again, because the Jews had been treated so horribly in the years leading up to the Nazi change of plans (to use more slave laborers, and preserve slave laborers longer) in 1943, the vast majority of Jews were non-working, i.e. they were either too young or old too work, or too ill and injured to recover and work. So this vast majority was gassed asap after arrival.

Even a great many of the working Jews were sick, because everybody would be sick after that transit, not to mention the years of ghettoization and starvation policy in central and Eastern Europe. Since almost everybody was sick, and the Nazis had to meet the labor quotas demanded by the SS, they needed to select a certain amount of sick Jews for labor. These Jews were not incurably sick and could recover. If they did not recover, they too were sent away and gassed.

Mattogno shows that working Jews (like my hypothetical 25 year old with the flu) were given health care, and then uses dishonest semantical and terminological games (with the term "non-able bodied") to falsely imply that Jewish 8-year olds and paraplegics and the elderly were given care.

In fact, as the record showed for July 8th 43. Everyone was registered and treated. The only dishonesty here is from you and your friends.

 

[mgc]

In fact, as the record showed for July 8th 43. Everyone was registered and treated. The only dishonesty here is from you and your friends.

Some transports were specifically and intentionally comprised of working Jews and were admitted as a matter of course upon arrival. Of course many of them were sick because of brutal treatment in transit. Indeed, the vast majority of Jews arriving at Auschwitz were sick including most "working Jews."

Because Mattogno aims to deceive he does not tell the reader any of this critical context when he discusses this document.

Regarding this specific transport, Mattogno provides no original primary source for it so I cannot do any research on it. He instead cites an obscure Polish secondary source (Blumental, 1946), which basically makes this hearsay by history standards. But even if Blumenthal was right, and Mattogno is accurately quoting Blumenthal (rather than cherry picking or misleadingly quoting him), this could have been one of the pre-curated transports of working Jews to which I am referring.

That there were apparently no children in this transport, but only men and women, is an indication that this transport was curated as a "working Jews" transport, rather than a transport of a bunch of random jews that would face a typical selection process.

Even from the information Mattogno provides, we can assume this transport is about working Jews. For example, I quote from Mattogno

"Of the 750 male prisoners, only 424 were found to be capable of working,
while the remainder of 326 prisoners were designated as unfit for work in the planned assignment to Labor Camps Buna and Neu-Dachs.
Of these 40% not-fully-fit-for-work prisoners, some must be placed in prisoners ’ quarters as well as in the recovery barracks . . .

Of the 750 female prisoners, 80 prisoners were designated as unfit for work,
which amounts to about 10% of the entire transport."

Notice the terms "unfit for work in the planned assignment" "not fully fit for work" and "recovery barracks." This transport is all about working Jews, and attempts to help them recover for labor. The fact that they are ill is unsurprising because almost everybody including working Jews would be ill after that transit. As I have said repeatedly the Nazis had to admit ill Jews as "working Jews" to meet their labor quotas. Because of how appallingly they had been treated in transit and in ghettos, etc, "able bodied Jews" often really meant the relatively less ill ones who were nevertheless still ill. The Nazis did, as we have discussed, provide limited health care to these slave laborers to enable them to recover and work.

Also note the perfectly symmetrical character of the transport - 1500 people, 750 men, 750 women (no children). This is obviously a pre-curated transport of working Jews meant to fulfill quotas of labor needs.

 

[Chugger]

So you admit they were transferring people out?

yeah there's evidence of people being sent to other labor camps in central and western europe. not to resettlement camps in russia

You admit records are lost but don't admit they could be exonerating? Do you think its possible they were destroyed on purpose because they were exonerating?

Sure "exonerating" evidence could have been destroyed on purpose, but that doesn't mean it was

Basically your conspiracy theory relies on the Soviets or whoever destroying or suppressing 100% of the "exonerating" evidence and witness testimonies, because nothing exists here that contradicts the mainstream story

 

[Bonesjones]

If you are a midwit or smarter, it is not a contradiction. Because you know there is a difference between one the on hand a 25 year old man with the flu and on the other hand a 25 year old paraplegic, or a 5 year old. You can call all three of these "non-working," but the first guy can be brought back into working condition easily

You barely break the ranks of mentally retarded, so I wouldn't go throwing stones.

So you are saying they dragged paraplegic to the labor camps to kill them there, rather than just do it at point of entry? I thought they euthanized them all before anyway. Or is that another fabrication. This all makes so much sense. If only my feeble mind could bear it all.

Mattogno's core technique in his book is to exploit the semantical confusion between Jews who were ill but could be brought back up to working strength (e.g. young Jews with the flu or diaherea or ulcers), and kids, old people, and the hopelessly ill or impaired.

So you think he's using code words for one thing to mean another in order for his story to fit. I wonder where that could come from.

Again, because the Jews had been treated so horribly in the years leading up to the Nazi change of plans (to use more Jews for labor, and preserve working Jews longer) in 1943, the vast majority of Jews were non-working, i.e. they were either too young or old too work, or too ill and injured to recover and work. So they were gassed on arrival. Even a great many of the working Jews were sick, because everybody would be sick after that transit. These Jews had to be given health care before they could work.

Hey look its a jew crying as he strikes at you!

Mattogno shows that working Jews (like my hypothetical 25 year old with the flu) were given health care, and then uses dishonest semantical and terminological games (with the term "non-able bodied") to falsely imply that Jewish 8-year olds and paraplegics and the elderly were given care.

So what kind of work do you think they were doing exactly? What level of hospital care do you think an 8 year old requires? 8 year olds are clearly capable of labor, the USA only outlawed it in 39. So if there is a labor shortage. Why are they killing their labor? Or is this just another piece you forgot to fit in.

 

[Bonesjones]

yeah there's evidence of people being sent to other labor camps in central and western europe. not to resettlement camps in russia

Sure "exonerating" evidence could have been destroyed on purpose, but that doesn't mean it was

Basically your conspiracy theory relies on the Soviets or whoever destroying or suppressing 100% of the "exonerating" evidence and witness testimonies, because nothing exists here that contradicts the mainstream story

So we can trust the Soviets when they claim their mortal enemy the Nazis are guilty, but we can't claim they would frame them for crimes invented or committed themselves. Makes sense. If you are pushing a pro-Soviet narrative, I guess.

Its a conspiracy fact that the Soviets attempted to frame Nazis for things they did. You can try and sugarcoat it, or ignore, or dodge this fact. The Soviets did terrible things and tried to blame the Nazis for it. That puts into question literally every piece of evidence in their hands. All of it. To ignore or downplay this just shows your unmitigated bias.

 

[Chugger]

Its a conspiracy fact that the Soviets attempted to frame Nazis for things they did. You can try and sugarcoat it, or ignore, or dodge this fact. The Soviets did terrible things and tried to blame the Nazis for it. That puts into question literally every piece of evidence in their hands. All of it. To ignore or downplay this just shows your unmitigated bias.

This is true (Katyn massacre) but doesn't help you because they didn't destroy the evidence that they themselves did it lol. I'm talking about Soviet documents

nor did they fabricate any German documents to bolster their case

 

[Bonesjones]

This is true (Katyn massacre) but doesn't help you because they didn't destroy the evidence that they themselves did it lol. I'm talking about Soviet documents

nor did they fabricate any German documents to bolster their case

Nice confirmation bias. It proves they had the motive, the means, and the will to do it. Just because they were unsuccessful doesn't mean they weren't successful in other cases.

We know it's a fact that the only death camps were located in Soviet controlled territory, that's not suspicious at all.

We know they controlled the camps entirely, which would mean they had access to every possible means of forgery.

We also know that the Holocaust narrative wasn't started until many years later, giving them ample time to do whatever, including large building projects like "restorations" of gas chambers and crematory.

So you have to believe that the Soviets are completely innocent and just finding facts laying about that no one else did.

All these coincidences lining up. Man it pays to be a Soviet. Damning information everywhere! It turns out our enemies are inhuman monsters! This totally justifies everything we've done and been through! Vindication!