The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Lemmingwise]

I was thinking about writing a big post, listing all the times the holocaust was invoked for wealth transfer. The yearly german payouts to holocaust survivors. The time swiss banks or dutch royal railway were blackmailed into payouts. The literal "jewish mineral claims against germany" convention.

All the times legislation was reversed solely on holocaust based argumentation, such as when germany and denmark made circumcision illegal, because it is after all, cosmetic surgery on an infant, with chance of complications and certainty of trauma and brain damage.

My interest in the holocaust has always been a journey for truth and the fact is that jews with an interest in truth (this thread has at least two self declared ones) like david cole are rare and they still suffer considerably for asking reasonable questions.

When people ask me why, the truth should be enough. But the political angle perhaps help people see that it's more than just autistic valuation of history.

But seeing @historyspeaks on bitchute (the old one on bitchute), as well as seeing this thread turn into a codoh back and forth and also dming with @Stan personally, made me realize how massively I'm wasting my time.

I think that anyone that reads irving's verdict or watches cole's documentary with a modicum of sense, will walk away realizing that the gas chambers are a massive hoax. A fear driven fever dream that was turned into a false truth for political and financial gain.

I thank everyone for all the sources provided and have them saved locally to follow up with later for my private judgement.

Best of luck shitflinging with each other.

 

[Bonesjones]

Best of luck shitflinging with each other.

Thanks for rolling in the mud. I hope you get more out of it than a waste of time.

 

[Aves]

I don't know if you just realized you implicitly called people deniers for thinking it's 5 rather than 6 million, which is the point I have been arguing with you.

Why isn't just accuracy important?

No, I’m saying that people think that saying “it’s actually 5 million” is some kind of gotcha to the holocaust.

The numbers come from estimations on how many who died. When someone says “actually FIVE million died” when they “under”estimate the number of Jews who died, they aren’t “denying” anything. If they think less Jews died because, for example, they thought millions of them were resettled, then I think that would be denial.

But yea, this thread got way too tedious. It’s probably for the better to just leave. Leave it to history nerds to battle it out.

 

[mrolonzo]

I was thinking about writing a big post, listing all the times the holocaust was invoked for wealth transfer. The yearly german payouts to holocaust survivors. The time swiss banks or dutch royal railway were blackmailed into payouts. The literal "jewish mineral claims against germany" convention.

All the times legislation was reversed solely on holocaust based argumentation, such as when germany and denmark made circumcision illegal, because it is after all, cosmetic surgery on an infant, with chance of complications and certainty of trauma and brain damage.

My interest in the holocaust has always been a journey for truth and the fact is that jews with an interest in truth (this thread has at least two self declared ones) like david cole are rare and they still suffer considerably for asking reasonable questions.

When people ask me why, the truth should be enough. But the political angle perhaps help people see that it's more than just autistic valuation of history.

But seeing @historyspeaks on bitchute (the old one on bitchute), as well as seeing this thread turn into a codoh back and forth and also dming with @Stan personally, made me realize how massively I'm wasting my time.

I think that anyone that reads irving's verdict or watches cole's documentary with a modicum of sense, will walk away realizing that the gas chambers are a massive hoax. A fear driven fever dream that was turned into a false truth for political and financial gain.

I thank everyone for all the sources provided and have them saved locally to follow up with later for my private judgement.

Best of luck shitflinging with each other.

It's not a waste of time friendo. Eventually we're going to get everyone interested in this topic to actually do the reading. Once you do, there is no way back from the truth.

People like Stan are mainly here to try to bully Nazis with insult, spam posting and exhortations to guilt. But actual Nazis are very well read and ideologically committed, so are impossible to bully either online or in real life.

Most of the orthodox defenders of the hoax are very used to getting their own way. This new information is actually psychologically distressing for the other side. Don't take that lightly.


This thread is probably more boring in the latter few pages because im actually making thread readers read when they'd rather bullshit about christian vs jew or what the talmud says.

No, I’m saying that people think that saying “it’s actually 5 million” is some kind of gotcha to the holocaust.

The numbers come from estimations on how many who died. When someone says “actually FIVE million died” when they “under”estimate the number of Jews who died, they aren’t “denying” anything. If they think less Jews died because, for example, they thought millions of them were resettled, then I think that would be denial.

But yea, this thread got way too tedious. It’s probably for the better to just leave. Leave it to history nerds to battle it out.

Fascinating. It got tedious right about the time I actually posted details about what actually went on.

Do you think this is a fucking game?

Do you just come here to take part in each side calling each other monsters or liars?

People are in jail over this right now.

And by the way. At what number do I become a denier? 5mil? 4mil? 3mil?1mil? 500000? 250000?

 

[JohnDoe]

It's not a waste of time friendo. Eventually we're going to get everyone interested in this topic to actually do the reading. Once you do, there is no way back from the truth.

@Lemmingwise hasn't wasted his time. I don't think most of us have, it was either intellectual exercise in calculation or a bit of sharpening our own responses. More importantly, people besides the hoax pushers were lurking and reading this thread - people with open minds that may take a deeper, more skeptical look at the long standing lies. This hoax has been decades in the making, with billions spent in propaganda and cannot be undone in one thread, but all lies can be defeated in time.

Truth spreads one person at a time.

 

[Lemmingwise]

@Lemmingwise hasn't wasted his time. I don't think most of us have, it was either intellectual exercise in calculation or a bit of sharpening our own responses. More importantly, people besides the hoax pushers were lurking and reading this thread - people with open minds that may take a deeper, more skeptical look at the long standing lies. This hoax has been decades in the making, with billions spent in propaganda and cannot be undone in one thread, but all lies can be defeated in time.

Truth spreads one person at a time.

Let me just add that it wasn't all wasted time. It's that it's become a complete waste of time. Waste of time is compared to what one might otherwise be doing.

Threads on the kiwifarms have a tendency to crystallize after 30 or so posts. It's nice to think back to the time someone had to confront that the stories their grandfather told couldn't have been true. Or was just lying to us to begin with.

 

[Chugger]

My sabbatical continues, but I thought I'd drop in to give our German speakers @History Speaks , @Stan , @Johan Schmidt (??) a bit of a present

Someone on Codoh posted the whole "10.3 million Jews" speech in audio format, as well as long excerpts from a Dutch documentary (so @Lemmingwise can follow along too if he's interested)

The voice recording was too fast so I slowed it down 15% and it can be cross checked against what we hear in the Dutch documentary which is much older (at least 2012) , so the AI voice thing doesn't make sense

The Sassen conversations were also transcribed as the recordings were being made, with handwritten notes and corrections by Eichmann that can further be cross-checked against his handwriting by any revisionist who feels compelled to continue

the whole archive is up at Yad Vashem

I will emphasize that the Sassen material and transcripts are not too well covered. The book in english to reference here is Stangneth's 'Eichmann before Jerusalem' which is a great book, but a character study more than anything else.

On skepticforum a poster brings up a page from the transcripts where Eichmann describes his dealings with Blobel's SK 1005 group (which was sent around Russia to destroy evidence of mass graves)

Dr. Nick Terry responds by saying Eichmann's statements here haven't been much incorporated into the larger historiography. I expect this is to be the case with a lot of statements in the transcripts.

If any German speaker is interested, I would be willing to collaborate on pulling some longer quotes from the transcript and doing a bit of exegesis. I think this might be really useful, from both an anti-denier perspective obviously but also in pushing scholarship forward.

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

It's nice to think back to the time someone had to confront that the stories their grandfather told couldn't have been true. Or was just lying to us to begin with.

Have to tread carefully there. Had an IRL friend tell me a story his grandfather told him, about how his family was killed in the camps, and buried in a lime pit. This grandfather then dug the corpses out of the lime pit in the middle of the night, with his bare hands! So he could give them a proper burial.

I just replied "wow, that's unbelievable" and looked like I took him seriously.

 

[Chugger]

I think that anyone that reads irving's verdict or watches cole's documentary with a modicum of sense, will walk away realizing that the gas chambers are a massive hoax. A fear driven fever dream that was turned into a false truth for political and financial gain.

I'm sad to see you go, but should say this.

In light of your total agnosticism about the millions of Jews that everyone who has deeply looked into the subject agrees are 'missing' , you should be wary extrapolating Auschwitz to all gas chambers.

Particularly so because Irving and Cole believe millions were gassed in the Reinhard camps, and now admit smaller scale gas chambers were operating at Auschwitz

It's nice to think back to the time someone had to confront that the stories their grandfather told couldn't have been true. Or was just lying to us to begin with.

I did have a proposal for you, which I think you should follow up on, and ties into this subject

Remembering outtakes from the movie Shoah which shows Lanzmann driving around Treblinka talking to randos, here's my proposal, and one that goes out to all deniers of the gassings.

Almost a million people are believed to have been killed there. Hundreds of thousands transported in, on one way trains.

The stench emanated for miles and was supposedly reported by German military 20 kilometers away


In 1943 massive burning operations are supposed to have been conducted there day and night.

My proposal is this: you should find a Polish speaking denier or pay a local and visit Treblinka and talk to people there. Video your conversations. Any elderly person's parents were probably adults during this period and it stands to reason would have been told about the thing that happened that has made their small town famous. Or they would have been told never to talk what 'really happened' (nothing apparently)

You express near certainty in a conspiracy/hoax that has never been evidenced, only speculated might exist. Now is your chance to find the first direct evidence of it, or perhaps convincing evidence the Treblinka story is real.

A repressive regime can stop people from speaking out in public, but it can't stop people from remembering. The USSR hasn't existed for 30 years.

Godspeed

 

[mrolonzo]

I'm sad to see you go, but should say this.

In light of your total agnosticism about the millions of Jews that everyone who has deeply looked into the subject agrees are 'missing' , you should be wary extrapolating Auschwitz to all gas chambers.

Particularly so because Irving and Cole believe millions were gassed in the Reinhard camps, and now admit smaller scale gas chambers were operating at Auschwitz



I did have a proposal for you, which I think you should follow up on, and ties into this subject

Remembering outtakes from the movie Shoah which shows Lanzmann driving around Treblinka talking to randos, here's my proposal, and one that goes out to all deniers of the gassings.

Almost a million people are believed to have been killed there. Hundreds of thousands transported in, on one way trains.

The stench emanated for miles and was supposedly reported by German military 20 kilometers away

View attachment 3512858
In 1943 massive burning operations are supposed to have been conducted there day and night.

My proposal is this: you should find a Polish speaking denier or pay a local and visit Treblinka and talk to people there. Video your conversations. Any elderly person's parents were probably adults during this period and it stands to reason would have been told about the thing that happened that has made their small town famous. Or they would have been told never to talk what 'really happened' (nothing apparently)

You express near certainty in a conspiracy/hoax that has never been evidenced, only speculated might exist. Now is your chance to find the first direct evidence of it, or perhaps convincing evidence the Treblinka story is real.

A repressive regime can stop people from speaking out in public, but it can't stop people from remembering. The USSR hasn't existed for 30 years.

Godspeed

Ok. Well now that AB is soundly defeated in various ways im happy to turn to the AR camps. This is common in holocaust debate. The hoaxers stop talking about AB or similar camps and want to talk about AR camps which do not in any substantial way exist and have precious little documents supporting any claims. Which in fact, since the holocaust is in fact one big vague conspiracy theory made by Jews, poles and soviets in wartime, is perfect for the hoaxers because they can claim and make supposition on anything they like and even demand that we find the bodies for them!!!

Unless you still wish to discuss AB or the other still existing camps?

 

[Chugger]

Unless you still wish to discuss AB or the other still existing camps?

Why don't you do something no denier has done and get direct evidence of the hoax. Go to Treblinka or a nearby town and get witness testimony that the people there were forced by Soviets to tell fake stories about what happened there

 

[mgc]

My sabbatical continues, but I thought I'd drop in to give our German speakers @History Speaks , @Stan , @Johan Schmidt (??) a bit of a present

Someone on Codoh posted the whole "10.3 million Jews" speech in audio format, as well as long excerpts from a Dutch documentary (so @Lemmingwise can follow along too if he's interested)

The voice recording was too fast so I slowed it down 15% and it can be cross checked against what we hear in the Dutch documentary which is much older (at least 2012) , so the AI voice thing doesn't make sense

The Sassen conversations were also transcribed as the recordings were being made, with handwritten notes and corrections by Eichmann that can further be cross-checked against his handwriting by any revisionist who feels compelled to continue

the whole archive is up at Yad Vashem

I will emphasize that the Sassen material and transcripts are not too well covered. The book in english to reference here is Stangneth's 'Eichmann before Jerusalem' which is a great book, but a character study more than anything else.

On skepticforum a poster brings up a page from the transcripts where Eichmann describes his dealings with Blobel's SK 1005 group (which was sent around Russia to destroy evidence of mass graves)

Dr. Nick Terry responds by saying Eichmann's statements here haven't been much incorporated into the larger historiography. I expect this is to be the case with a lot of statements in the transcripts.

If any German speaker is interested, I would be willing to collaborate on pulling some longer quotes from the transcript and doing a bit of exegesis. I think this might be really useful, from both an anti-denier perspective obviously but also in pushing scholarship forward.

Holy shit.

When I was at the Bundesarchiv last summer, these files were not publishable, because there was some kind of copyright (Sassen family? Eichmann family?. It seems like archives are now publishing them.

I am definitely interested in doing this. Could be a coup for my channel and more importantly is of great educational value. One thing I will definitely do is download this content and provide an English translation.

I will check it out when I get home in a couple hours.

 

[Lemmingwise]

My proposal is this: you should find a Polish speaking denier or pay a local and visit Treblinka and talk to people there. Video your conversations. Any elderly person's parents were probably adults during this period and it stands to reason would have been told about the thing that happened that has made their small town famous. Or they would have been told never to talk what 'really happened' (nothing apparently)

Recording old people saying things that break the law and gets them in trouble is probably more your thing than mine.


Edit: or apparently, historyspeaks.

 

[Chugger]

Recording old people saying things that break the law and gets them in trouble is probably more your thing than mine.

Assuming the conspiracy is real, the government is probably not gonna draw attention to it by imprisoning people who are providing direct evidence of it. so I don't think you should be too worried about this.

Nevertheless it is not Holocaust denial to say your parents or people that you know denied the Holocaust.

 

[mrolonzo]

Why don't you do something no denier has done and get direct evidence of the hoax. Go to Treblinka or a nearby town and get witness testimony that the people there were forced by Soviets to tell fake stories about what happened there

View attachment 3512900

Ok. I go for two weeks. No living local can or will talk to me. On the last day, as I leave sadly, head bowed, should I consider the holocaust proven?

Assuming the conspiracy is real, the government is probably not gonna draw attention to it by imprisoning people who are providing direct evidence of it. so I don't think you should be too worried about this.

Nevertheless it is not Holocaust denial to say your parents denied the Holocaust.

Are you absolutely sure this is a good line of argument or should I start posting revisionist text again?

 

[Chugger]

Ok. I go for two weeks. No living local can or will talk to me. On the last day, as I leave sadly, head bowed, should I consider the holocaust proven?

if nobody wanted to talk to you about it that would be pretty suspicious actually. not direct proof of conspiracy, but definitely that something fishy was going on

 

[mrolonzo]

if nobody wanted to talk to you about it that would be pretty suspicious actually. not direct proof of conspiracy, but definitely that something fishy was going on

Ok.

Do you consider suspicion to equal definitive evidence?

Let's say one old man talks about it. He gives me a fantastic tale with many extraordinary lurid details of gore and horror. Should I still consider the holocaust thus proven?

 

[Chugger]

Ok.

Do you consider suspicion to equal definitive evidence?

Let's say one old man talks about it. He gives me a fantastic tale with many extraordinary lurid details of gore and horror. Should I still consider the holocaust thus proven?

No, because he would be at least 90 years old speaking about events that happened 80 years ago.

But if you talk to many people who all say their parents knew it was happening, remembered smelling the bodies, etc, I don't think you can explain this with any reasonable conspiracy beyond some science fiction shit

what do you expect would happen if you went there?

 

[mgc]

I think that anyone that reads irving's verdict or watches cole's documentary with a modicum of sense, will walk away realizing that the gas chambers are a massive hoax.

Cole's "documentary" is completely irrelevant. So a building (Crema I) that used to be a limited-use gas chamber, but which all historians of Auschwitz and all documents say was remodeled into an air-raid shelder by the Nazis in 1944, is not in its current form technically suitable to be a gas chamber? You think this proves the Holocaust did not happen?

The fact that the Polish tour guide with coarse English mistakenly said the building was an "original" is also not remotely convincing argument that the Holocaust did not happen (I mean really bro, how can you believe this?). She was not a historian—was likely a college kid doing a summer job—and just made a mistake. Dr. Piper confirmed to Cole that Crema I was remodeled by the museum to look like a gas chamber, something that was also no secret.

This was a bad move by the museum—insofar as the average tourist passing by was likely to mistakenly think crema I was in its original form—but is obviously not proof that the museum developed a secret plot to fake the Holocaust.

Irving has reneged on 95% of his past denial. In the most recent statements I can find by him on the matter he essentially confirmed the mainstream narrative of the Holocaust—including exterminations at Auschwitz, e.g. of the Hungarian Jews in 1944—and even agreed that the mainstream estimate of 5 to 6 million Jews dead is essentially accurate. (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8FWUgdtlM0). It is implausible to say that he is doing this for social acceptance, because he continues (including in this clip) to be openly anti-semitic and say the Jews had it coming, which are not things one says if one is looking for social acceptance. He is accepting the evidence that denial is dumb.

If Cole's documentary and Irving's past provocations are what got you into denial, I would honestly have to question your bias. I wish you would do so too—is there a reason based in your politics or worldview or temperament that you want Holocaust denial to be true?

I am not actually asking you this question—as you are leaving anyway. But I am challenging you to ask it to yourself.

If you found a 90 year old Jew who said she was a 10 year old kid when resettled from Treblinka and grew up in the resettlement, or a 95 year old Eastern European who said he saw this resettlement, or a diary from someone living at the time referring to the existence of this resettlement, this would be the best evidence we have yet for the ridiculous "resettlement thesis", according to which millions of Jews were moved out of the camp system into some permanent resettlement.

The fact that deniers do not actually go and look for evidence of what happened to the disappeared millions of Jews in the camp system is revealing. They seem to implicitly recognize that this would be fruitless, and that millions of Jews did indeed "disappear" in the Nazi camp system (and were not transited out of it into resettlement(s)).

 

[Bonesjones]

Or you'd just claim they went senile and anything they say can be ignored, just like you do with any other evidence presented to you. All the while ignoring the monstrous impossible gaps in your own story.

You just admitted that yourself here:

No, because he would be at least 90 years old speaking about events that happened 80 years ago.

But if you talk to many people who all say their parents knew it was happening, remembered smelling the bodies, etc, I don't think you can explain this with any reasonable conspiracy beyond some science fiction shit

So testimony that supports you is amazingly true, testimony against you is the ravings of a crazy person. Curious.