The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Bonesjones]

I gave you 6 primary sources so far attesting to the Holocaust and also Allied photographs of the Auschwitz death camp in operation. I’m not “editorializing” to call that strong evidence

I told you why it's not strong evidence, the fact you can't go further is just showing your lack of evidence. So again, stop claiming something that isn't true. Unless you love lying.

I know you don’t give a shit about Judaism. But those who do find your aversion to Jews as silly as a kid who hates a food he’s never tried. You passionately hate something you know nothing of and make up lies to keep yourself angry.

Sorry that I hate the acts your people do, I know I'm a monster for it. Maybe I should just go back to being the goy niggercattle you wish I would be. I mean that's a central part of your fake religion.

If you wish to prove to me the blood libel happened then I want pictures, witness statements, archeological evidence and hundreds of legal proceedings and a confession from a Jew who killed Christian children and drank their blood. Shouldn’t be too hard for you since you seem to know for sure it’s true.

I don't wish to prove to you anything. If I belonged to a religion that was consistently accused of abuse and awful crimes, I would do my own investigation and reach my own conclusions. Considering the first rite the jews do to a boy is cut his penis up and suck it, it doesn't take much of a stretch to think they will do much worse to others. I know I don't belong to any organized religion for much less. Why do you stick with one that does this?

Don’t tell me about my own faith formation. You’re not a truth seeker. You decided at some point that you wanted the Holocaust to not be true, and then set about finding authors and “evidence” to confirm your fantasy.

Why because it raises uncomfortable truths you don't want to deal with? Keep your head in the sand you coward. I elucidated my thought process in this very thread and have been open about my own biases. I've done nothing but be honest and straight forward and yet all you can do is squirm and twist and lie. Why is that? Do you not exist on a foundation of truth no matter how uncomfortable it is to stand on?

 

[mrolonzo]

Yes, in many ways a few posters here remind me of the sort of people who could stomach doing this. But I don’t think pro-Nazi fanboys or anti-semites are subhuman. They have a clear and obvious bias, and they’re willing to bankrupt their integrity to uphold their faith that the Holocaust was not a big deal. But the Nazis weren’t monsters; they were cold, calculating people who set about the Holocaust in a methodical and systematic way. And essentially, the Nazis succeeded; Germany, Poland, Greece, and France have hardly any Jewish population today.

The fanboys are thankfully very poorly organized and hopefully won’t amount to much. But the Milgram experiments demonstrate that it doesn’t take a sociopath to do what the SS did

I gave you 6 primary sources so far attesting to the Holocaust and also Allied photographs of the Auschwitz death camp in operation. I brought in an article from Scientific American about current archaeological findings from the camps. I’m not “editorializing” to call that strong evidence

I know you don’t give a shit about Judaism. But those who do find your aversion to Jews as silly as a kid who hates a food he’s never tried. You passionately hate something you know nothing of and make up lies to keep yourself angry.

If you wish to prove to me the blood libel happened then I want pictures, witness statements, archeological evidence and hundreds of legal proceedings and a confession from a Jew who killed Christian children and in order to drink their blood. Shouldn’t be too hard for you since you seem to know for sure it’s true.

Don’t tell me about my own faith formation. You’re not a truth seeker. You decided at some point that you wanted the Holocaust to not be true, and then set about finding authors and “evidence” to confirm your fantasy.

Next you’ll tell me Jews caused the Black Plague. Lunatic

ETA: is everything these guys say DARVO? Because Holocaust denialism must be the fattest DARVO I have ever seen in the wild

Goodnight Stan;

Pages 52 to 53 -

The “Monthly Report on Temporarily Accommodated Hungarian Jews in the Camp” of July 27, 1944 has the following statistics on the treatment of
prisoners in the “Prisoners’ Infirmary Outpatient Clinic B II/a”:93 “Cases treated: In the reporting period 3,138 prisoners [were94] treated in the clinic. Of these: Surgical cases
1426 Diarrhea
Constipation Angina
Diabetes
Congestive heart failure Scabies
Pneumonia Flu
Heat rash/impetigo Other
Infectious diseases: Scarlet fever Mumps

----------
On December 9, 1943, Glücks promulgated the following circular on “Treatment of the Currently Held Jewish Prisoners” to the commandants of
all concentration camps, including Auschwitz:95 “In coordination with the RSHA, I direct in amendment to my circular D I/1 Az.: 14 c 9/U./sneed.-Geh.Tgb.Nr. 1113/44 of August 30, 1944, that Jewish prisoners who urgently need surgeries may be transferred to the nearest hospital. The transfer may be effected only when the required surgery will be performed by a Jewish physician, who must also be transferred. The transfers back of the patient and the physician must then occur immediately after the surgery is completed. I expect of you that you that you will apply the strictest standards to the potentially eligible cases, and transfer only those prisoners for whom a surgery is inevitable.”
A few days later, on December 14, Rudolf Höß, the then-head of Office DI, advised the camp commandants of the following amendment to the circular just referred to:96 “Further to the above circular, I advise with authorization of the head of Agency D III that, when a Jewish inmate physician is not available for the surgery to be performed, a qualified non-Jewish inmate physician may perform the needed surgery.”

 

[JohnDoe]

If you wish to prove to me the blood libel happened then I want pictures, witness statements, archeological evidence and hundreds of legal proceedings and a confession from a Jew who killed Christian children and in order to drink their blood. Shouldn’t be too hard for you since you seem to know for sure it’s true.

Actually, we need you to provide positive incontrovertible proof that all those Christian infants were resettled at the expense of the Rabbinical Council. If you can't definitely prove that all those infants were relocated, we will have no choice but to reject your questioning of the accepted historical fact that is Blood Libel. We eagerly await your presentation.

 

[mgc]

Goodnight Stan;

Pages 52 to 53 -

The “Monthly Report on Temporarily Accommodated Hungarian Jews in the Camp” of July 27, 1944 has the following statistics on the treatment of
prisoners in the “Prisoners’ Infirmary Outpatient Clinic B II/a”:93 “Cases treated: In the reporting period 3,138 prisoners [were94] treated in the clinic. Of these: Surgical cases
1426 Diarrhea
Constipation Angina
Diabetes
Congestive heart failure Scabies
Pneumonia Flu
Heat rash/impetigo Other
Infectious diseases: Scarlet fever Mumps

----------
On December 9, 1943, Glücks promulgated the following circular on “Treatment of the Currently Held Jewish Prisoners” to the commandants of
all concentration camps, including Auschwitz:95 “In coordination with the RSHA, I direct in amendment to my circular D I/1 Az.: 14 c 9/U./sneed.-Geh.Tgb.Nr. 1113/44 of August 30, 1944, that Jewish prisoners who urgently need surgeries may be transferred to the nearest hospital. The transfer may be effected only when the required surgery will be performed by a Jewish physician, who must also be transferred. The transfers back of the patient and the physician must then occur immediately after the surgery is completed. I expect of you that you that you will apply the strictest standards to the potentially eligible cases, and transfer only those prisoners for whom a surgery is inevitable.”
A few days later, on December 14, Rudolf Höß, the then-head of Office DI, advised the camp commandants of the following amendment to the circular just referred to:96 “Further to the above circular, I advise with authorization of the head of Agency D III that, when a Jewish inmate physician is not available for the surgery to be performed, a qualified non-Jewish inmate physician may perform the needed surgery.”

Why do you keep repeating this as if no explanation has been provided.

First, Auschwitz was a massive camp (really three camps, Auschwitz I, Birkenau, and Monowitz) that held people of all nationalities. Most health care was given to non-Jews (just because the document you refer to talks about Hungarian Jews in the camps does not mean this list of patients treated refers to thesee Hungarian Jews, it sounds like a comprehensive list of treatment from patients regardless of nationality, although I would have to read the full document, and will try to find it by the way).

Second, while the Nazis at Auschwitz eventually wanted to kill Jews, they did not want to kill of them right away. With regard to able bodied Jews, they preferred to keep them alive so long as their labor was useful to the German war effort. This sometimes meant treating able bodied Jews in the hospital when doing so was practical and eonomical. Labor needs were the top priority for the Nazis, and sometimes that meant temporarily sparing (even feeding, and giving health care to) Jews.

Of course this was only a temporary reprieve, and the able-bodied Jews in Auschwitz were steadily worked to death. When they were no longer able bodied, or when whatever ailments they suffered could not be easily and economically treated, they were taken away and gassed.

All you are doing is repeating points that are completely compatible with mainstream history. And around in circles you go. Next you will be asking me why some teenager was considered able bodied, as if many teenagers are not more physically robust than most adults.

EDIT - the second copypasta document is completely misrepresented by mattogno, see my post below.

 

[Bonesjones]

Why do you keep repeating this as if no explanation has been provided.

First, Auschwitz was a massive camp (really three camps, Auschwitz I, Birkenau, and Monowitz) that held people of all nationalities. Most health care was given to non-Jews.

Second, while the Nazis at Auschwitz eventually wanted to kill Jews, they did not want to kill of them right away. With regard to able bodied Jews, they preferred to keep them alive so long as their labor was useful to the German war effort. This sometimes meant treating able bodied Jews in the hospital when doing so was practical and eonomical. Labor needs were the top priority for the Nazis, and sometimes that meant temporarily sparing (even feeding, and giving health care to) Jews.

Of course this was only a temporary reprieve, and the able-bodied Jews in Auschwitz were steadily worked to death. When they were no longer able bodied, or when whatever ailments they suffered could not be easily and economically treated, they were taken away and gassed.

All you are doing is repeating points that are completely compatible with mainstream history. And around in circles you go. Next you will be asking me why some teenager was considered able bodied, as if many teenagers are not more physically robust than most adults.

You said anyone not able to work was gassed. So nice job on moving those goalposts. Got any more to move?

 

[mgc]

You said anyone not able to work was gassed. So nice job on moving those goalposts. Got any more to move?

This is a petty game of semantics. I have made clear in numerous posts that ill able-bodied Jews could and were treated in the Auschwitz hospital. For example say a 20-year old Jewish man who was deported to Auschwitz from Norway (i.e. has not been starved by Nazis for years as ghettoized Jews were) got a cold. Because he could still be exploited economically by the Nazis for months of labor, it really would not be cost-effective to murder him. But you have to isolate him from the others or the cold will spread and diminish the capacity of your labor force. So you send him to the "hospital" or whatever.

Moronic deniers interpret this as a sign of Nazi humanity. I and mainstream historians interpret this as a sign of the Nazi desire to exploit the Jews for labor so long as they could, an objective that is completely comprehensible and in no way incompatible with wanting these people dead eventually.

The people who were gassed right away (with 0.1% exceptions, e.g. little kids snatched up by Mengele for medical experiments) were non-able bodied Jews, the disabled, very young, very old, diseased and starving ghettoized Jews, etc.

 

[Bonesjones]

This is a petty game of semantics. I have made clear in numerous posts that ill able-bodied Jews could and were treated in the Auschwitz hospital.

No you didn't.

Moronic deniers interpret this as a sign of Nazi humanity. I and mainstream historians interpret this as a sign of the Nazi desire to exploit the Jews for labor so long as they could, an objective that is completely comprehensible and in no way incompatible with wanting these people dead eventually.

No you claim that certain people were registered to work in the camp and everyone else was gassed. The people who were registered to work weren't killed for some reason, even if they were unable to work. Which pokes a hole in your previous theory.

The people who were gassed right away (with 0.1% exceptions, e.g. little kids snatched up by Mengele for medical experiments) were non-able bodied Jews, the disabled, very young, very old, etc.

So they were so evil they gassed everyone except the ones they didn't. You really love having your cake and eating it too.

 

[mgc]

No you didn't.

I mentioned the point about Jews being treated in the "hospital" at Auschwitz here https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/page-104#post-12411250.

Again this is a part of mainstream history. And not even particularly counter-intuitive. (Even though the Nazis wanted the Jews dead, is it so implausible to think they wanted to exploit the able bodied Jews economically—for labor—before they died?)

 

[mrolonzo]

Why do you keep repeating this as if no explanation has been provided.

First, Auschwitz was a massive camp (really three camps, Auschwitz I, Birkenau, and Monowitz) that held people of all nationalities. Most health care was given to non-Jews.

Second, while the Nazis at Auschwitz eventually wanted to kill Jews, they did not want to kill of them right away. With regard to able bodied Jews, they preferred to keep them alive so long as their labor was useful to the German war effort. This sometimes meant treating able bodied Jews in the hospital when doing so was practical and eonomical. Labor needs were the top priority for the Nazis, and sometimes that meant temporarily sparing (even feeding, and giving health care to) Jews.

Of course this was only a temporary reprieve, and the able-bodied Jews in Auschwitz were steadily worked to death. When they were no longer able bodied, or when whatever ailments they suffered could not be easily and economically treated, they were taken away and gassed.

All you are doing is repeating points that are completely compatible with mainstream history. And around in circles you go. Next you will be asking me why some teenager was considered able bodied, as if many teenagers are not more physically robust than most adults.

Ah yes ;

"On December 16, 1943, the head doctor of Auschwitz Concentration
Camp submitted a “Report on the Activity of the Surgical Department of the Hospital for Prisoners of Auschwitz I Concentration Camp from September 16, 1943 to December 15, 1943.” Here is the text of this report:91 “The surgical department was, as before, housed in Block 21 during the reporting period. Because of space limitations in Block 21, many surgical patients were treated in Block 19. The outpatient treatments were performed in Block 28. In the reporting period, 1,800 prisoners were in the surgical department, of whom 314[92] prisoners received aseptic surgeries. Septic surgeries (for phlegmons, abscesses, etc.) were performed on 2135 patients. Of the septic surgeries, the following are to be listed: Stomach resectioning
2
Removal of neck lymph nodes Gall bladder excisions
Laparotomies
Appendectomies Hernia operations
Castrations “
Genital surgeries
Hydrocele operations Vascular operations
“
Amputation of extremities Mastoidectomies
Tonsilectomies
Deviated septums Ovariectomies
Rotator-cuff resectioning Tubal ligations Skin grafting

Aside from these, various other septic surgeries were performed. Treatment of septic illnesses, such as phlegmons, suppuration, etc., was divided up as follows: Lower extremities
997 Upper Various surgical illnesses
555 583

Aseptic surgeries were performed with ether anesthesia or 2% Novocain. For small abscess surgeries, chloroethyl was used. A shortage of short-term anesthesia (chloroethyl) was noticeable in the reporting period. The lack of compartments for the treatment of wounds in the aseptic section has had a deplorable effect on postoperative cases and frustrated these efforts. Surgical linens are in a deplorable state on the score of uninterrupted usage and lack of sufficient quantities to permit concurrent launderings.”

Right. So the nazis castrated and amputated Jewish limbs, literally making people unable to work in order that their lives would be saved, so they could watch them lying on beds being cared for 24/7 by nazi nurses or walking around on crutches and laugh drinking schnapps, eating sausages, until they got bored and decided to gas them.

You are very smart. Everyone give this historian a round of applause.

 

[mgc]

Report on the Activity of the Surgical Department of the Hospital for Prisoners of Auschwitz I Concentration Camp from September 16, 1943 to December 15, 1943.”

Bolding mine.

Your copypasta makes exactly 0 mention of Jews and is from the "Surgical Department of the Hospital for Prisoners of Auschwitz I Concentration Camp."

I suggest you do some googling so you can correct yourself. Remember that Auschwitz contained 3 camps, and prisoners of various nationalities and ethnicities. Auschwitz I (which your copypasta mentions) is just one of the three. Birkenau was where the Jews were being systematically killed and sent.

 

[Bonesjones]

According to the mainstream history, Himmler called off the gassings in late 1944 as the Red Army was approaching Auschwitz, and ordered Jews to be given better care, as part of an attempt to cover up the exterminations. (As part of the cover up, he also ordered the four working gas chambers demolished, which is why they are in ruins today, though the mortar of the demolished buildings still contains considerable traces of hydrogen cyanide, something the deniers cannot explain.)

Why would he order better care if his intention is genocide? Why wouldn't they just let them waste away? Zero logical sense, since dying from wounds and disease isn't consistent with war crimes they would attempt to cover up.

So Anne Frank being taken care of in a hospital in early 1945 is completely consistent with the mainstream history.

No its not, if she had typhus severe enough for hospitalization she would be gassed because she's a dying mouth to feed.

Other Jews were treated in the Auschwitz hospital before the exterminations ceased. But this is also consistent with the mainstream history. The desperate Nazis wanted to economically exploit the Jews before killing them, so if an able bodied Jew could be brought back up to snuff, they would not kill him, and would even treat him. Your problem is explaining why the Jews treated in the hospitals were teenagers or adults, not (until Himmler ordered an end to gassings in late 1944) very old or very young people.

The official holocaust story says those unable to work were pushed to the eastern front to be killed, if not immediately gassed, know your own arguments.

With a handful of exceptions, very young people (children, not teens like 15 year old Anne Frank) simply did not survive Auschwitz. The meme photos you have seen of liberated children are either non-Jews, Jewish twins who had been preserved as guinea pigs for crackpot medical experiments, or Jews who arrived in late 1944 after Himmler's order to stop the gassings.

So they all died, except the ones who didn't?

Deportations from one camp to another are also completely irrelevant and well understood by mainstream historians. The problem you have is explaining how millions of Jews disappeared in the Nazi camp system during the war, deportations from one camp to another do not explain this.

If they are moving people from camp to camp that indicates something other than, labor or death. So you have to address this because it's a central fault in your own story.

 

[mrolonzo]

Bolding mine.

Your copypasta makes exactly 0 mention of Jews and is from the "Surgical Department of the Hospital for Prisoners of Auschwitz I Concentration Camp."

I suggest you do some googling so you can correct yourself. Remember that Auschwitz contained 3 camps, and prisoners of various nationalities and ethnicities. Auschwitz I (which your copypasta mentions) is just one of the three. Birkenau was where the Jews were being systematically killed and sent.

Right. So Jewish prisoners were released, or treated in hospital, or allowed to give birth, but could not have their limbs removed to save their life?

Meanwhile I already showed you how the hungarian jews of 44 were treated.

 

[mgc]

On December 9, 1943, Glücks promulgated the following circular on “Treatment of the Currently Held Jewish Prisoners” to the commandants of
all concentration camps, including Auschwitz:95 “In coordination with the RSHA, I direct in amendment to my circular D I/1 Az.: 14 c 9/U./sneed.-Geh.Tgb.Nr. 1113/44 of August 30, 1944, that Jewish prisoners who urgently need surgeries may be transferred to the nearest hospital. The transfer may be effected only when the required surgery will be performed by a Jewish physician, who must also be transferred. The transfers back of the patient and the physician must then occur immediately after the surgery is completed. I expect of you that you that you will apply the strictest standards to the potentially eligible cases, and transfer only those prisoners for whom a surgery is inevitable.”
A few days later, on December 14, Rudolf Höß, the then-head of Office DI, advised the camp commandants of the following amendment to the circular just referred to:96 “Further to the above circular, I advise with authorization of the head of Agency D III that, when a Jewish inmate physician is not available for the surgery to be performed, a qualified non-Jewish inmate physician may perform the needed surgery.”

Look at the bolded dates. Notice a contradiction? (How can he modfiy a circular from Aug 30 1944 on Dec 9 1943 . . . hmmm . . . )

Mattogno is misdating this document, which is actually from 9 December 1944, to trick monolingual neo nazis like you think it was issued when we say the exterminations were going on. I guess Mattogno's false dating might be a mistake, but dishonesty is also a reasonable possibility since the "mistake" favors his case so much.

This Dec 1944 chain of documents concerning better medical care for Jews and the possibility of treating them at local hospitals if need be was issued after Himmler called off the exterminations and ordered that Jews be treated better, including being treated by "Aryan" doctors, an attempt to cover up the exterminations and save his neck. The Red Army was mere weeks ago and it was time for the murderers to cover up their crimes, as most murderers try to do. I have mentioned this many times here and it is part of mainstream historiography.

Another technique he does (which you keep falling for) is imply that documents listing total numbers of patients treated at an Auschwitz hospital refer to Jews or only Jews.

 

[mrolonzo]

Look at the bolded dates. Notice a contradiction? (How can he modfiy a circular from Aug 30 1944 on Dec 9 1943 . . . hmmm . . . )

Mattogno is misdating this document, which is actually from 9 December 1944, to trick monolingual neo nazis like you think it was issued when we say the exterminations were going on. I guess Mattogno's false dating might be a mistake, but dishonesty is also a reasonable possibility since the "mistake" favors his case so much.

This Dec 1944 chain of documents concerning better medical care for Jews and the possibility of treating them at local hospitals if need be was issued after Himmler called off the exterminations and ordered that Jews be treated better, including being treated by "Aryan" doctors, an attempt to cover up the exterminations and save his neck. The Red Army was mere weeks ago and it was time for the murderers to cover up their crimes, as most murderers try to do. I have mentioned this many times here and it is part of mainstream historiography.

Another technique he does (which you keep falling for) is imply that documents listing total numbers of patients treated at an Auschwitz hospital refer to Jews or only Jews.

Indeed. Fair point. Obviously a typo because its immediately followed by this;

"A few days later, on December 14, Rudolf Höß, the then-head of Office DI, advised the camp commandants of the following amendment to the circular just referred to:96 “Further to the above circular, I advise with authorization of the head of Agency D III that, when a Jewish inmate physician is not available for the surgery to be performed, a qualified non-Jewish inmate physician may perform the needed surgery.”
On the same day, the head of Agency D III of the WVHA, SS Standartenführer Enno Lolling, transmitted the following directive to the camp
physicians for implementation of the order circulated by Glücks97 “The camp physicians are advised to make themselves familiar, through the camp commandants, with Circular DI/1, Az.: 14Sep. U./We. Of December 9, 1944. In this is to be noted that surgeries in civilian hospitals can be performed even if no Jewish inmate physician is available to perform the surgery. In such case, a qualified non-Jewish inmate physician is to be substituted. It is under no circumstances to be permitted for a physician of a civilian hospital to perform the surgery."

The memo about getting other doctors for Jews is showing respect to Jews. But making sure that if they don't have one available they can still get the care they need.

As for who is getting surgery and who isn't. You're basically saying that Jews could get anything except amputation, including natal services and drugs or are you asserting that Jews were deprived certain treatments? Is this shown somewhere in the hospital records?



I just want to say.. at this point, History Speaks, Stan, Chugger, Shimbo Abe.......I love you guys. You play a vital part in the great game of the universe. We Nazis will always be grateful to you.

 

[mgc]

Maybe it is just a typo, to be fair. But the dating has huge significance for the importance of the document. If it were Dec 1943, it would contradict the mainstream story. Dec 1944 completes coheres with the mainstream story.

Even at Nuremberg Kaltenbrunner said that the exterminations had stopped by late 1944. You also have many other witnesses saying the same thing (e.g. Felix Kersten), and a chain of documents showing that Himmler had adopted a new policy by late 1944, including trying to give Jews the same medical treatments as non-Jews in Auschwitz (this order of course implies they were not receiving the same medical treatment beforehand). Historians have known about this for a long time.

By the way even Mattogno appears to concede that the Jewish inmates could only be treated by Jewish doctors until late 1944.

 

[mrolonzo]

Maybe it is just a typo, to be fair. But the dating has huge significance for the importance of the document. If it were Dec 1943, it would contradict the mainstream story. Dec 1944 completes coheres with the mainstream story.

Even at Nuremberg Kaltenbrunner said that the exterminations had stopped by late 1944. You also have many other witnesses saying the same thing (e.g. Felix Kersten), and a chain of documents showing that Himmler had adopted a new policy by late 1944, including trying to give Jews the same medical treatments as non-Jews in Auschwitz (this order of course implies they were not receiving the same medical treatment beforehand). Historians have known about this for a long time.

By the way even Mattogno appears to concede that the Jewish inmates could only be treated by Jewish doctors until late 1944.

3.2. Origins and Realization of the Sickbay of Birkenau On May 14, 1943 SS Brigadeführer Kammler transmitted to the commandant of Auschwitz the written order to initiate “special measures for the improvement of the hygienic facilities” in Camp Birkenau. Pursuant to these measures, Kammler ordered on May 17, 1943112 the
conversion of Section III of Camp Birkenau into a hospital for prisoners. This comes from a letter of Bischoff to the garrison physician of July 15,
1943, which begins as follows:113 “The development of Section III in the PoW camp as Prisoners’ Sickbay was ordered on May 17 by SS Brigadeführer and Generalmajor of the Waffen SS Dr.-Ing. Kammler.”
The planning was entrusted to Agency C of the WVHA, or more precisely to SS Sturmbannführer Wirtz, the head of Department C/III Technical Specialties, as well as to SS Untersturmführer Birkigt, head of Division C/II/3-Sickbays and Infirmaries. Together with the head of Division C/III/1-Engineering Works, SS Obersturmführer Grosch, these two men were also signers of Plan 2521 of June 4, 1943.114 In a note dated May 28, 1943, Birkigt wrote, referring to himself in the
third person, the following:115 “Per the order of head of Office Group C it is urgently necessary that SS Untersturmführer Birkigt overhaul the comprehensive health facilities of Auschwitz with the Central Construction Office and the garrison physician. A separate quarantine area for 8,000 to 12,000 patients is to be established for the camp. Thereof, 2,500 to 4,000 permanent barracks, the rest flexible expansion capacity as currently planned in Lublin.

 

[mgc]

This document is quoted from Mattogno's book (p.14)-

“With a death rate so high, you can never bring the number of inmates up to the level that the Reichsführer SS has ordered. The chief physicians in the camps must strive with all means at their disposal to ensure that the death rate in individual camps falls substantially. The best doctor in a concentration camp is not one who seeks to attract attention with inappropriate harshness, but one who maintains the labor capacity as high as possible with surveillance and rotation in individual workplaces."

German policy at Auschwitz was to kill most Jews upon arrival ("useless eaters"), but to use able bodied Jews for labor for as long as possible. This document is fully consistent with that.

In practice, widespread sadism and incompetence in Auschwitz led to a inhuman treatment of Jewish forced laborers, and hence the massive death rate among even them referred in this document. Himmler was complaining about this death rate because he did not want able bodied Jews and other concentration camp laborers to die right away, but wanted to use them for labor first.

Note that this complaint is about the effect of a high death rate on labor capacity. No complaint is registered about the deaths of non-able bodied Jews (the large majority), who of course were murdered upon arrival at Auschwitz.

I will read the Mattogno book (including that one document I flagged in this thread and in a dm with you), and likely will do a video on it in the future, but tire of repeating the same point over and over again here.

 

[mrolonzo]

This document is quoted from Mattogno's book (p.14)-

“With a death rate so high, you can never bring the number of inmates up to the level that the Reichsführer SS has ordered. The chief physicians in the camps must strive with all means at their disposal to ensure that the death rate in individual camps falls substantially. The best doctor in a concentration camp is not one who seeks to attract attention with inappropriate harshness, but one who maintains the labor capacity as high as possible with surveillance and rotation in individual workplaces."

German policy at Auschwitz was to kill most Jews upon arrival ("useless eaters"), but to use able bodied Jews for labor for as long as possible. This document is fully consistent with that.

In practice, widespread sadism and incompetence in Auschwitz led to a inhuman treatment of Jewish forced laborers, and hence the massive death rate among even them referred in this document. Himmler was complaining about this death rate because he did not want able bodied Jews and other concentration camp laborers to die right away, but wanted to use them for labor first.

Note that this complaint is about the effect of a high death rate on labor capacity. No complaint is registered about the deaths of non-able bodied Jews (the large majority), who of course were murdered upon arrival at Auschwitz.

I will read the Mattogno book (including that one document I flagged in this thread and in a dm with you), and likely will do a video on it in the future, but tire of repeating the same point over and over again here.

Yes but looks like labor capacity is in general meaning Jews and others. As for able bodied. It's likely that non able bodied were already debilitated so bringing their rates up was a strictly medical matter in the purview of a medic who could decide if they could be saved or not. There will always be a palliative portion of every intake.


Moreover. The figures look like most were able bodied for example the Hungarian Jews of 44. Plus of course we already have orders for good treatment of inmates without exception of jews

 

[mgc]

Here is another interesting document Mattogno cites (p.15, bolding mine)-

"the doctors must chiefly focus on maintaining the health and the productivity of the inmates. Not from hypocritical sentimentality, but because we need their arms and legs, because they have to contribute to the German people achieving a great victory."

They did not give a shit about these people. They just did not want them dying out right away because they wanted to use them as slave labor. And of course the reference to these KL laborers is not specifically about Jews but about slaves of all nationalities.

The actual story here is that the Nazi higher-ups were irritated by how wasteful the KL managers were being with their slave laborers, who were not supposed to die right away but were supposed to help the German war effort. These communications are not about Jews specifically, but all slave laborers, and do not constitute evidence that the Nazis they wanted to preserve the majority of Jews at Auschwitz who were not even laborers. To use food and health care to preserve the non-able bodied Jews at a time when Germany was so strained for resources would to the Jew-hating Nazis have been "sentimentality" of the kind the above mentioned quote criticizes.

 

[mrolonzo]

Here is another interesting document Mattogno cites (p.15, bolding mine)-

"the doctors must chiefly focus on maintaining the health and the productivity of the inmates. Not from hypocritical sentimentality, but because we need their arms and legs, because they have to contribute to the German people achieving a great victory."

They did not give a shit about these people. They just did not want them dying out right away because they wanted to use them as slave labor. And of course the reference to these KL laborers is not specifically about Jews but about slaves of all nationalities.

The actual story here is that the Nazi higher-ups were irritated by how wasteful the KL managers were being with their slave laborers, who were not supposed to die right away but were supposed to help the German war effort. These communications are not about Jews specifically, but all slave laborers, and do not constitute evidence that the Nazis they wanted to preserve the majority of Jews at Auschwitz who not even laborers.

Yes. This was to avoid the possibility of doctors letting inmates languish rather than rehabilitating them, and to justify all the expense to the rest of the organisation, and which would be appropriate for their proposed future too in the east. Arbeit mach frei.