The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Bonesjones]

@Stan

heads up. it seems like you are new to this (talking to deniers, clearly you are familiar with the history) so you should know a few things to save your breath

1) any document recovered is automatically suspect because it was recovered in either Soviet or Pro-Jewish western territories, so open to tampering or forgery

2) any witness statement given after the war is also suspect, for the same reason. Germans would be forced to confess through torture or threat, Jews would lie for obvious reasons

3) these things are all the more suspect due to human remains never having been sufficiently demonstrated

4) forensic reports stating discovery of mass amounts of remains are unverifiable

most importantly you should know that @mrolonzo comes from Rodoh, where they have been arguing about the excavator at Treblinka 2 for months. This is the lowest form, the absolute dregs of denial*, and there is the danger of this thread turning into that and being ruined until mrolonzo leaves.

*I realized this early on when I asked a denier there why the Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz and he said it was to protect them from local anti-semites

Earth moving equipment isn't evidence for anything unless you can conclusively prove it was used for the purpose of the Holocaust and not the literal million other things you would move earth for.

Claiming that they did archeology and used scientific methods to discover mass graves, then you read the details and find they omitted doing either, is a huge fucking black eye.

Using preliminary core drilling to suggest there could be mass graves but you can't conclusively say anything is fine. Saying they definitely are and they are so big they actually contain Atlantis is fucking retarded and not scientific.

Sorry for all your academic backgrounds you can't even stick to the basics.

 

[Jack O'Lantern]

LMAO. I am tempted to call this copypasta but these lines (starvation and typhus only bc "Allied carpet bombing of German infrastructure") are too dumb to even be from 4chan. They probably come out of the 1988 boomer conspiracy theory VHS genre.

The Germans assigned Jews a starvation diet in the long before their infrastructural systems were laid to waste. Ghettoized Polish Jews were assigned a diet of approximately 200 calories a day (hundreds of thousands died from starvation and disease, but a great many survived through the black market). Hans Frank, the Head of the General Government (which presided over parts of Poland not formally annexed by Germany) described his policy of condemning 1.2 million ghettoized Polish Jews to death by hunger, and also mentioned that if they did not starve, this would lead to a speeding up of the anti-Jewish measures (i.e. deportations to camps).

See the Frank document attached. Or continue to live in your fantasy world where Hitler wanted all the Jews well-fed until Churchill stopped him.

Are you some sort of cunt? Can't you read? I said myself the Jews starved to death and many did die from typhus.

The Allies did carpet bomb German infrastructure which did result in disease and mass starvation. Ports, railways, factories, farms, pharmaceuticals, etc., were all bombed by the Allies in order to weaken Germany. Not a single historian would deny the aforementioned.

Where do you think food and medicine comes from and how do you think it reaches shops, markets, hospitals, homes, camps, etc?

 

[Chugger]

Are you some sort of cunt? Can't you read? I said myself the Jews starved to death and many did die from typhus.

You are talking about the labor camps, which held a few hundred thousand tops. We are talking about the millions of deported or "resettled" Jews, who, from the revisionist perspective, 'disappeared' in terms of documentary and witness evidence trail after leaving the ghettos

 

[Bonesjones]

Are you some sort of cunt? Can't you read? I said myself the Jews starved to death and many did die from typhus.

The Allies did carpet bomb German infrastructure which did result in disease and mass starvation. Ports, railways, factories, farms, pharmaceuticals, etc., were all bombed by the Allies in order to weaken Germany. Not a single historian would deny the aforementioned.

Where do you think food and medicine comes from and how do you think it reaches shops, markets, hospitals, homes, camps, etc?

They literally don't know what logicists is or how it works.

 

[Chugger]

Using preliminary core drilling to suggest there could be mass graves but you can't conclusively say anything is fine. Saying they definitely are and they are so big they actually contain Atlantis is fucking retarded and not scientific.

2001 drillings at 5 meter intervals worked because the graves were so massive in terms of dimension. I've shown you the descriptions before, this is mostly for the sake of our new friends

 

[Bonesjones]

2001 drillings at 5 meter intervals worked because the graves were so massive in terms of dimension. I've shown you the descriptions before, this is mostly for the sake of our new friends

View attachment 3506224

Cool they did preliminary research, now do the actual hard part of digging up and cataloging what's there. You know what actual archeology is. And not this half assed oh we can't because they won't let us, boo hoo. They won't though because the finding would cut off their reparations gravy train. Weird how you never talk about that. How it's all based on free money, wonder why.

 

[Stan]

Ash means ash, you do know that wood and coal heating was very common 100 years ago, right?

You do know what the Overton Window is? Having controlled opposition argue a point gives it legitimacy. 5 to 7 million? Well I guess that's just about right, arguing 100k? Nazi!

Rumors of the Holocaust predate the war. People being forcefully removed are likely to believe they are on their way to be killed, even if they aren't.

I'm never going to listen to a Rabbi about disturbing bodies when they cut up and suck baby penis. You can either do a full excavation and detailed analysis or shut up.

Yes, that's how science and archeology works. It is suspect, but it's not science. That's why you do a detailed scientific analysis.

You have a Masters in engineering and physics and you argue for the Holocaust. Jesus christ. The power of retarded ideology.

“I’m never going to be sensitive to a rabbi’s objections about disturbing a mass grave of Holocaust victims” :/ that’s really quite anti semitic. If you want to push the Overton Window towards reasonable doubt of the Holocaust’s magnitude and scope it would be helpful to refrain from openly scorning the victims and their families. According to you it was a transit camp, so at the very least these people were forcibly deported, starved, and threatened at risk of getting deadly disease, lost family, lost all their stuff… and you just sneer at them and say you’d never believe their own eyewitness accounts?

He's started posting multiple pages from whereever. Of course he is.

I’m not posting them from “wherever”, I’m including my sources. You don’t do this unless it’s MHK, who I feel is untrustworthy for numerous reasons including a lack of understanding about their subject and a willingness to lie about their credentials.

@Stan

heads up. it seems like you are new to this (talking to deniers, clearly you are familiar with the history) so you should know a few things to save your breath

1) any document recovered is automatically suspect because it was recovered in either Soviet or Pro-Jewish western territories, so open to tampering or forgery

2) any witness statement given after the war is also suspect, for the same reason. Germans would be forced to confess through torture or threat, Jews would lie for obvious reasons

3) these things are all the more suspect due to human remains never having been sufficiently demonstrated

4) forensic reports stating discovery of mass amounts of remains are unverifiable

most importantly you should know that @mrolonzo comes from Rodoh, where they have been arguing about the excavator at Treblinka 2 for months. This is the lowest form, the absolute dregs of denial*, and there is the danger of this thread turning into that and being ruined until mrolonzo leaves.

*I realized this early on when I asked a denier there why the Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz and he said it was to protect them from local anti-semites


they buried tons of ashes with bones removed or smashed in the woods . explain

Thanks for saying something; I am new to talking to people who would deny all evidence if it helped their pre-determined conclusions about history.

I notice a really granular, microscopic attention span amongst these guys. They obsess about how archeological evidence of Treblinka’s gas chamber is “just tiles” and the mass graves are “just ashes” without any attempt to consider what the fuck Treblinka was, if not an extermination camp, and then just spin assertions out of whole cloth like “Buchenwald took great care of the Jews”.

I am growing pretty frustrated with mrolonzo tbh; the Hitler memes and the obvious scorn for Holocaust victims kind of tips his hand as to what he really thinks, which is that all reports of the Holocaust are fake news and Jewish victims are malingering. That’s a really cringe take too, because it implies a conspiracy to fool the world into thinking the Holocaust happened without being willing to name any person or org who could have plausibly fabricated such a conspiracy and kept it going to nearly 70 years, watergate didn’t last 3 years before someone spilled the beans, and that was a much smaller op; if there is a Holocaust fabricator they would have needed to be behind wartime reports of the Holocaust, postwar investigations, and be able to stifle modern archeological digs at the sites… who would be in charge of such a thing?

That’s why denialists focus on tiles and fuel debates; if they even try to crate a big picture of what they thought happened instead of the Holocaust it falls apart,

I’m posting eyewitness accounts to see if the deniers in the thread want to come right out and call these accounts untruthful, because it conflicts with what their favorite “respectable” denialist authors have to say.

ETA: would anyone in the thread like to propose an alternate explanation for Himmler’s remarks to his own men? If he’s not describing the Holocaust what is he talking about?

 

[Chugger]

Cool they did preliminary research, now do the actual hard part of digging up and cataloging what's there. You know what actual archeology is.

They did dig up and catalog : "soil samples were withdrawn and examined"

 

[JohnDoe]

1) any document recovered is automatically suspect because it was recovered in either Soviet or Pro-Jewish western territories, so open to tampering or forgery

As Katyn proved, the Soviets were not above falsifying evidence, including documents and records. Further, the western powers were not above vouching for or tacitly endorsing these forgeries. In light of this, any skepticism regarding documents is not only well founded, but to be expected.

2) any witness statement given after the war is also suspect, for the same reason. Germans would be forced to confess through torture or threat, Jews would lie for obvious reasons

As Katyn proved, the Soviets were not above falsifying evidence, including witness statements coerced with torture or bald faced lies and faked transcripts. Approaching any 'documentation' that has been in Soviet custody or originates from them with naive credulity is idiotically irresponsible or bad faith. Let's not pretend that there aren't many political, personal, and monetary motivations to lie.

3) these things are all the more suspect due to human remains never having been sufficiently demonstrated

The strongest proof for the assertion that people are being murdered is, in fact, dead bodies/human remains. It's the most incontrovertible form of forensic evidence and the focus of any homicide investigation for a reason. Without a body (or bodies) you can't even start asking 'Whodunnit' until you establish that murder was even done.

4) forensic reports stating discovery of mass amounts of remains are unverifiable

Nice try at a dodge, where you erect a straw man to argue against. Verifying mass graves is possible to do forensically, there are accepted procedures to do so and academic fields well suited to such tasks (forensic anthropology). The issue is that these well developed and rigorous procedures are not applied to the sites claimed to be Holocaust graves.

 

[Chugger]

I'll address this first, though I don't really expect a response so this will probably be it

As Katyn proved, the Soviets were not above falsifying evidence, including documents and records. Further, the western powers were not above vouching for or tacitly endorsing these forgeries. In light of this, any skepticism regarding documents is not only well founded, but to be expected.

As Katyn proved, the Soviets were not above falsifying evidence, including witness statements coerced with torture or bald faced lies and faked transcripts. Approaching any 'documentation' that has been in Soviet custody or originates from them with naive credulity is idiotically irresponsible or bad faith. Let's not pretend that there aren't many political, personal, and monetary motivations to lie.

It's pretty interesting you make this point, because actually no, at Nuremberg the Soviets presented zero German documents indicating Nazi responsibility for Katyn and also zero confessions for it.

But they presented dozens of apparent holocaust forgeries (including ones from this list I sent you earlier -- search for Nuremberg), and were able to get many Germans to confess involvement in mass gassings

From your perspective then, it seems the Soviets fabricated key evidence to bolster the case for a fake genocide of an ethnic group they weren't particularly fond of, but declined to do so to clear their name of a serious crime they themselves were accused of. This is strange.

 

[Bonesjones]

Polish people aren't Semitic, so nice try Rabbi. I'm clearly anti-jew. Since they mutilate and suck baby dicks as a religious right and lie about mass murder for profit. Trying to hold people accountable is a virtue, but you wouldnt know anything about that. What with being a liar and all.

I don’t post anything that requires sources, I only point out the holes in your own logic and sources. So again you lie.

You aren’t going frustrated with us because we are wrong and ignoring evidence but because of the huge lack of it for the Holocaust. You have basic assertions that require evidence to back up, you fail to do that at an extremely basic level.

Saying a million people died requires close to a million corpses and for every missing corpse you need enough evidence to point that they could be included with the rest. You fail to do this repeatedly.

Saying "People died here and that's proof enough" is meaningless, considering we know there was mass disease and starvation. What with the war going on and supply lines being obliterated. So again you confuse things that aren't the holocaust to bolster the argument for the Holocaust because of your lack of evidence. Another point of dishonesty.

Weird how you constantly lie, misattribute, decontextualize just to make your narrative work. When all I have to do is point to the lack of resources required to make your plan work.

 

[Shitposting boogeyman]

Agree wholeheartedly. Deniers in this thread focus on negationism (what they say did not happen) and rarely if ever on what they think did happen.

It’s insufficient to just say “nuhuh!!”, but none of the deniers or revisionists in this thread put forth a consistent explanation on what happened, because there isn’t one. (Besides the obvious, anyway, which would be that the Holocaust happened largely as described in the historical record.)

If the Holocaust was fake, surely there would be some evidence of the conspiracy, right?? There would be people who survived resettlement willing to come forward and attest to that. There would be a plausible explanation for Aktion Reinhard. Hitler’s own rhetoric would need to be impugned, as he repeatedly called for “die Vernichtung der Juedischen Rasse” in public remarks. (In German, that phrase is very explicit and can really only be interpreted to mean “the annihilation of the Jewish race”.)

All of this, and many more tpoics Im leaving off for reasons of space here but am happy to elaborate upon further, would need to have a consistent explanation less tortuous than “worldwide Jewish Illuminati conspiracy”.

Deniers and ideologues care very little about facts. Their in it for the narrative the facts are a minor concern.

 

[JohnDoe]

I feel like you don't understand that this isn't a good retort.

they presented dozens of apparent holocaust forgeries

"So there is a history of forgery and falsification then."
"Exactly, but we can take everything they present as truth!"
"How? They've already falsified and lied before, why should we just accept what they say now?"
"Well they support my narrative so just accept their materials as proof!"
"You just said they presented forgeries, so we can't just assume trust - and you also admit that Holocaust related forgeries exist in general so actually we should have at least some baseline skepticism about all evidence in that case-"
"YOU'RE JUST AN ANTI-SEMITE DENIAL CONSPIRITARD!"

Holocaust 'historians' and ideologues care very little about facts. Their in it for the narrative the facts are a minor concern

Bruh, exactly.

 

[Shitposting boogeyman]

I feel like you don't understand that this isn't a good retort.


"So there is a history of forgery and falsification then."
"Exactly, but we can take everything they present as truth!"
"How? They've already falsified and lied before, why should we just accept what they say now?"
"Well they support my narrative so just accept their materials as proof!"
"You just said they presented forgeries, so we can't just assume trust - and you also admit that Holocaust related forgeries exist in general so actually we should have at least some baseline skepticism about all evidence in that case-"
"YOU'RE JUST AN ANTI-SEMITE DENIAL CONSPIRITARD!"



Bruh, exactly.

Fuck you for editing my post. You're a retard and should be forced to wear a dunce cap in public

 

[Chugger]

I feel like you don't understand that this isn't a good retort.

I feel like you didn't understand my post. I'll rephrase slightly, words in bold are the change

It's pretty interesting you make this point, because actually no, at Nuremberg the Soviets presented zero German documents indicating Nazi responsibility for Katyn and also zero confessions for it.

But [you think] they presented dozens of holocaust forgeries (including ones from this list I sent you earlier -- search for Nuremberg), and were able to get many Germans to confess involvement in mass gassings

From your perspective then, it seems the Soviets fabricated key evidence to bolster the case for a fake genocide of an ethnic group they weren't particularly fond of, but declined to do so to clear their name of a serious crime they themselves were accused of. This is strange.

So to be clear, there is no evidence or indication the Soviets fabricated any German documents for any reason. You might argue they fabricated their own documents tho, such as when they used coded language to describe executions, ("sentenced to ten years without the right of correspondence")

but this doesn't really bolster your case

 

[Bonesjones]

I feel like you didn't understand my post. I'll rephrase slightly, words in bold are the change

We understand your posts just fine. We understand everything you say and do. There's zero misunderstanding about the evidence you present and how you present it. We know that you do everything in a dishonest capacity.

 

[Linako 2.0]

that’s really quite anti semitic. If you want to push the Overton Window towards reasonable doubt of the Holocaust’s magnitude and scope it would be helpful to refrain from openly scorning the victims and their families. According to you it was a transit camp, so at the very least these people were forcibly deported, starved, and threatened at risk of getting deadly disease, lost family, lost all their stuff… and you just sneer at them and say you’d never believe their own eyewitness accounts?

Appeal to emotion, not an argument. eyewitness accounts are not reliable in courts of law without evidence so why should we believe these people's accounts when they don't want to search for evidence that they were actually exterminated?

I notice a really granular, microscopic attention span amongst these guys. They obsess about how archeological evidence of Treblinka’s gas chamber is “just tiles” and the mass graves are “just ashes” without any attempt to consider what the fuck Treblinka was, if not an extermination camp, and then just spin assertions out of whole cloth like “Buchenwald took great care of the Jews”.

You're describing more the holocaust affirmers who when provided with something that disproves their precious victim narrative will start scarping to the bottom of the barrel in hopes that the opponent has no argument against it, thus it will prove that the holocaust is 1000% real and you're not allowed to criticize ever.

. That’s a really cringe take too, because it implies a conspiracy to fool the world into thinking the Holocaust happened without being willing to name any person or org who could have plausibly fabricated such a conspiracy

I mean, that's what's happening now. look at Eli Weasel's fake and gay books that has you believe that jewish babies were thrown into the air and used as target practice for gattling guns, or that there were giant fire pits for mass cremation. It is illegal to question these claims in Europe btw.

ETA: would anyone in the thread like to propose an alternate explanation for Himmler’s remarks to his own men? If he’s not describing the Holocaust what is he talking about?

It's issues with translation since Himmler used a word that germans use for fumigating out pests, of course propagandists will translate it to make it look like he's a saturday morning cartoon gloating about the extermination of jews.
It's kind of like how Hitler never used the word master race.

 

[mgc]

It is a lie that the Western Allies "tacitly endorsed" Soviet lies about Katyn.

While the Soviets did make this allegation at Nuremberg, nobody was convicted or punished for it, because the Western Allies were skeptical of the claims and thought the Soviets likely did it (though were not sure either way).

In the late 80s (or maybe it was early 90s, not sure) Gorbachev opened up the Soviet archives and it was conclusively proven through documentary evidence that the Soviets had done Katyn and framed the Germans for it.

Strange that exactly zero evidence emerged of a conspiracy to "fake a genocide of 5 to 6 millions Jews and blame the Nazis for it," an infinitely more elaborate and implausible conspiracy than blaming the Germans for killing 22,000 in the Katyn massacre.

 

[Chugger]

@Stan

I have to go, and probably I won't be back for a few days. But you should know that deniers are in a difficult position because they have to present a case that is as strong and confident as the orthodox one. Even someone like @Lemmingwise who is far more agnostic than most I'd wager is near 100% convinced that mass gassings never happened and anyone who believes this is a fool.

This happens to some extent with every debate, but becomes ridiculous and cartoonish with the Holocaust because of the comparative strength of evidence of the claims. It might be a better look for them actually not to argue on substance at all and just do character assassination.

So there has to be some sensitivity to this. Getting them to do joint research has yielded the best results so far, as with me and Rapechu.

Anyway good luck and enjoy the cowfucked brain of Carlo Mattogno

 

[mgc]

It is a lie that the Western Allies "tacitly endorsed" Soviet lies about Katyn.

While the Soviets did make this allegation at Nuremberg, nobody was convicted or punished for it, because the Western Allies were skeptical of the claims and thought the Soviets likely did it (though were not sure either way).

In the late 80s (or maybe it was early 90s, not sure) Gorbachev opened up the Soviet archives and it was conclusively proven through documentary evidence that the Soviets had done Katyn and framed the Germans for it.

Strange that exactly zero evidence emerged of a conspiracy to "fake a genocide of 5 to 6 millions Jews and blame the Nazis for it," an infinitely more elaborate and implausible conspiracy than blaming the Germans for killing 22,000 in the Katyn massacre.

Himmler used a word that germans use for fumigating out pests

It's issues with translation since Himmler used a word that germans use for fumigating out pests

Himmer from the Posen speeches (while talking explicitly about the Jews)- "Wir haben das moralische Recht, wir hatten die Pflicht, unserem Volk gegenüber das zu tun, dieses Volk, da uns umbringen wollte, umzubringen."

My Translation - we have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do this, to kill these people who wanted to kill us."

Umbringen means "kill," the same way the english word "kill" means "kill." "Umzubringen" mean " to kill," the same way the English phrase "to kill" means "to kill."

Will you change your ways not that you know you were laughably informed by deniers about how all references to murder of Jews by Himmler (along with numerous other Nazi leaders" are "mistranslated"? Or will you keep on groping for half-baked excuses to continue to live in your fantasy world?