The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Bonesjones]

Are encyclopedia Brittanica or Wikipedia the defining sources of holocaust information? I’m confused on what you point is.

You said that the holocaust was “defined” in the 70s, I’m asking who and what people supposedly “defined” it to be specifically 6 million.

I’m also asking who “invented” the number. You said that some dude invented 6 million, and why anyone here should care about what this guy said.

So now you don't believe 6 million jews were killed by the Nazis? You need some sort of verification? Wow look at this Neo-Nazi holocaust denier come out of the wood work!

 

[Lemmingwise]

I’m also asking who “invented” the number. You said that some dude invented 6 million, and why anyone here should care about what this guy said

I need to get back to you on that and find the right source. I don't have it on hand and I've just ran out of time to post for today.

Are encyclopedia Brittanica or Wikipedia the defining sources of holocaust information? I’m confused on what you point is.

It means that the majority of people who look up the definition, receive this as the definition.

You can't call it an absurd definition, unless you agree with me that public education on the holocaust is absurd.

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

Your words say no but your body says yes.

>R kelly meme
I made this just for for you.

https://vocaroo.com/1bYqyAmy4OIM

edit: uploaded for when Vocaroo dies

 

[Bonesjones]

>R kelly meme
I made this just for for you.

https://vocaroo.com/1bYqyAmy4OIM

Thank you that was beautiful, even if it is silly.

 

[Stan]

Who “invented” 6 million? Where do you get this? A lot of historians get 6 million from censuses. The number came from estimating the population of Jews who died during the war so I’m confused on what you mean “6 million was invented”

And the number doesn’t just come from one single person, I’m sure Chugger, History speaks, and Stan could come up with an estimate of 5-6 million dead without using this inventor.

I’m willing to do that math, but it might be unnecessary. The Nazis themselves estimated the Jewish population in their occupied territory to be 11 million persons in the Wannsee protocol prepared by Eichmann. The report also estimated 35% of those Jews were over age 65 and could be housed in “old-age ghettos”, which didn’t happen.

It was further reported by the Nazis that 40% could be used for forced labor, and the remaining 60% could be “resettled” immediately.

(1.1 x 10*7)x0.60 = 6.6 million. :/

 

[Aves]

If you Google how many people died in the holocaust, that's the number that pops up from the accepted sources. People may argue this number or that as long as it approximates the official number, because it's a form of the Overton window. So you can say see this guy said 5 and this guy said 8, so it must be in the middle and wow look that's what the official number is. It's a form of manipulation.

Historians don't have to secretly conclude anything, holocaust denial is illegal and socially unacceptable in every legitimate form of academia and media. So unless you want to torch your own career on the principle of truth, your findings will also approximate the official story. Since you have every incentive to and zero to work against it. This applies to many other forms of research.

You also are up against a legal and established canon that is disproportionately well financed to fight against every word you say once you've broken from the official narrative.

Holocaust denial is legal in about 160 countries. And 6 million didn’t come from choosing the number in the middle, it’s just that many historical works report about 6 million died so it’s often considered the “correct” number. You could make a convincing argument that 5 million died I’m sure.

People may not like you, but you can still deny the holocaust all you want. I’m not sure what point you are making regarding public backlash.

So now you don't believe 6 million jews were killed by the Nazis? You need some sort of verification? Wow look at this Neo-Nazi holocaust denier come out of the wood work!

There have been many historians who thought 5 million died and weren’t considered deniers. The numbers come from calculating the amount of Jews in Europe and how many died, so saying “there were only 5 million Jews in nazi regimes who died” versus “there were 6 million” isn’t denial.

 

[Chugger]

Are encyclopedia Brittanica or Wikipedia the defining sources of holocaust information? I’m confused on what you point is.

You said that the holocaust was “defined” in the 70s, I’m asking who and what people supposedly “defined” it to be specifically 6 million.

I’m also asking who “invented” the number. You said that some dude invented 6 million, and why anyone here should care about what this guy said.

Some guy at Nuremberg claimed Eichmann told him 6 million, but even if this is true, Eichmann's Argentina material reveals that he didn't have a set number.

Anyway the first academic study by Reitlinger put the number at around 4.5 . Hilberg's defining study put it at around 5 mil. Later studies incorporated additional info about EG killings and ghetto deaths that moved it higher.

5 seems to be the conservative estimate with 6 being the upper limit

So deniers complaint is essentially that the figure has been rounded up from 5.5

Damn.

 

[Aves]

I need to get back to you on that and find the right source. I don't have it on hand and I've just ran out of time to post for today.


It means that the majority of people who look up the definition, receive this as the definition.

You can't call it an absurd definition, unless you agree with me that public education on the holocaust is absurd.

Well that goes to my second question, what makes you think 6 million is wrong?

Im not saying the definition is absurd, I’m saying that the idea that any entity, person, or group can define the holocaust as SPECIFICALLY 6 million is absurd. You said, previously, the guy who invented 6 million is wrong. I’m saying that you can’t point out that one guy was wrong and therefore completely invalidate the point of 6 million died.

Brittanica says 6 million, so if you want to write and email saying “it’s actually ABOUT 6 million” then, go on I guess? Wikipedia already says “some” so they aren’t even defining it as specifically 6 million.

 

[mgc]

The denier "method" is so predictable.

1) Completely ignore the big picture - namely the need to explain the disappearance of millions of Jews in Nazi custody (camps and ghettos) during the wa, with least as much (documentary, testimonial, demographic, etc) evidence for their alternative explanation as the mainstream has for the extermination explanation. (Lacking an alternative narrative with comparable or greater evidence, beliefe in denial is not only false but irrational.)

2) ignore all rules of historiography, which demand that the historian create a positive narrative to explain historical phenomena. Invent own rules of historiography, drawn from CSI boomer fantasies about how we "identify the chemical agent and solve the murder".

3) While studiously ignoring big picture, nihilistically nitpick at minutiae, pretending that these objections are based on one's knowledge of "the science" rather than one's desire to deny the Holocaust. Fail to recognize that even if one of these nitpicking objections were legitimate—and not even one I have seen here remotely is—it would be fallacious to say it disproves the Holocaust. (see Fallacy of Composition - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition).

4) When all else fails, brainlessly repeat dead and discredited memes ("No holes no Holocaust," "it is illegal to estimate under 6 million", "against the laws of physics", "it is scientifically impossible, this is basic science, I freakin love science.").

Apart from the pure personal attacks, all the posts you see from deniers here will contain one or more of these elements.

 

[Stan]

The recent treblinka soil sample study...

It's good that they filmed it, because you could see that they were in a lightly wooded nearby area where there was a christian cemetary (they did not admit this but their own video evidence supports it) When they found one human bone they stopped looking, because it is against the jewish faith to disturb graves.

Very scientific. Finding a bone at a cemetary is surely evidence of mass graves of huge proportions.

I was actually reading about some more recent non-invasive archaeological research, but link me. I link and attach for you.

You're angry dude, I get that but you guys cant just throw mud at the wall then get mad when it's just dismissed out of hand.

As for taking good care. Just look at their healthcare system or their battle against typhus.




Ok why was she sent to Auschwitz?




What do you mean it's absurd? They are specifically ordered to focus on improving the health of all the inmates.

You’re the one who posts Hitler memes when you’re frustrated, not me. So Please link a source to this thread if you’re going to say ridiculous things like “Buchenwald had great healthcare”. Just telling me to “go look at (ridiculous claim) is bullshit.

Don't forget all the fat Jews they needed to fuel the crematoriums when they weren't using the open burn pits. The SS was a big believer in diversity (of BMI).

I thought this thread was screeching earlier about how much fuel it would have taken to burn all the bodies. Don’t you know fat bodies are harder to burn? Because they contain more water??

 

[Aves]

Some guy at Nuremberg claimed Eichmann told him 6 million, but even if this is true, Eichmann's Argentina material reveals that he didn't have a set number.

Anyway the first academic study by Reitlinger put the number at around 4.5 . Hilberg's defining study put it at around 5 mil. Later studies incorporated additional info about EG killings and ghetto deaths that moved it higher.

5 seems to be the conservative estimate with 6 being the upper limit

So deniers complaint is essentially that the figure has been rounded up from 5.5

Damn.

Yea I’m having a hard time understanding their point. Like, the jist of the holocaust is that millions were killed intentionally, not “it’s actually 5 million not 6”. At least, that’s how I see it.

 

[Chugger]

Yea I’m having a hard time understanding their point. Like, the jist of the holocaust is that millions were killed intentionally, not “it’s actually 5 million not 6”. At least, that’s how I see it.

yup. they have no point, just nitpicking and vague conjecture about some overarching conspiracy they otherwise cannot evince

 

[mgc]

I was actually reading about some more recent non-invasive archaeological research, but link me. I link and attach for you.

You’re the one who posts Hitler memes when you’re frustrated, not me. So Please link a source to this thread if you’re going to say ridiculous things like “Buchenwald had great healthcare”. Just telling me to “go look at (ridiculous claim) is bullshit.

Don't forget all the fat Jews they needed to fuel the crematoriums when they weren't using the open burn pits. The SS was a big believer in diversity (of BMI).

I thought this thread was screeching earlier about how much fuel it would have taken to burn all the bodies. Don’t you know fat bodies are harder to burn? Because they contain more water??

Dozens of mass graves have been fond at Belzec.

Even Mattogno admits these could accomodate 170,000 cadavers . Odd even on his estimate for the Nazis to have dug so many massive graves for a "transit camp." where people supposedly stayed only briefly.

And of course Mattogno underestimates how starved these (overwhelming ghettoized Polish) Jews were, hence his far-too-low but still striking figure of how many could have been buried.

 

[Aves]

yup. they have no point, just nitpicking and vague conjecture about some overarching conspiracy they otherwise cannot evince

Lemmingwise’s view of the holocaust is the most confusing. He seems to think there was a single guy who single handedly invented 6 million? And then when this dude was found to be wrong, the 6 million number is also wrong? I’d like for him to explain further regarding the 6 million number stuff

 

[Stan]

yup. they have no point, just nitpicking and vague conjecture about some overarching conspiracy they otherwise cannot evince

Holocaust deniers can evince who they think would be behind the “Holohoax”; they don’t because it makes them look ridiculous.

 

[mgc]

Lemmingwise’s view of the holocaust is the most confusing. He seems to think there was a single guy who single handedly invented 6 million? And then when this dude was found to be wrong, the 6 million number is also wrong?

It is a predetermined conclusion, bro.

If they were interested in "physical evidence" they would be concerned about the lack of physical evidence for the existence of the millions of "disappeared" Jews in the Nazi camp system, including exactly 0 physical or eyewitness evidence for their "resettlement."

We can and should discredit their minutiae and pseudoscience. But we also should emphasize their dogged ignorance of the big picture. They need an alternative explanation of how these millions of Jews disappeared— i.e. one with at least as much evidence as there as for extermination— but they have none.

This is why, to quote ex-denier Eric Hunt, "without additional miraculous, earth-shattering new data" deniers are "unable to ever “win” the “Holocaust denial” debate."

Also to quote Hunt, if you presented the "rettlement" thesis as an alternative explanation for the disappearance of the millions of Jews in the camps, given that you have 0 physical and eyewitness evidence, you would be "laughed out of an auditorium."

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

Wrong. At least in the netherlands it has been reported several times how muslim kids reject the holocaust and it's an educational problem they don't know how to fix. They don't reject it as universally as say, homosexuality, but the holocaust isn't far behind with like 60- 80% or so rejecting it.

Just noting that it's not just me and my questions about Muslims he's ignoring. Maybe HistoryEats has studies that will either verify or disprove such a troublingly high rate of Holocaust denial from Muslims, even college educated. And 60–80%? So three, or four, out of five Muslims in the West deny the Holocaust. Wow, maybe we should focus our attention on that demographic.

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

Hey, as you've seen I have the ability to post pastiches etc.

If you give me some lyrics and a song to hang on like earlier, I'll do you a parody. Open to deniers and affirmers. I'm gonna say 3 day tournaround, just because. But yeah.

 

[Aves]

One thing that I think some deniers don’t get is the purpose of learning about the holocaust.

For me, the holocaust is the intentional killing of millions of innocent people, and is a great case study on how extreme nationalism, propaganda, and manipulation can lead to terrible tragedies. Worrying about whether or not 5 or 6 million died, or even how they were murdered, is less relevant to the fact that nazis tried to murder millions, and succeeded in it.

Even if the holocaust was all falsified, you can always look at the many other genocides and atrocities done by, say, Imperial Japan, or the USSR, or the many communist regimes, etc etc. A very similar message would still come from those countries.

 

[mrolonzo]

I was actually reading about some more recent non-invasive archaeological research, but link me. I link and attach for you.

You’re the one who posts Hitler memes when you’re frustrated, not me. So Please link a source to this thread if you’re going to say ridiculous things like “Buchenwald had great healthcare”. Just telling me to “go look at (ridiculous claim) is bullshit.

Don't forget all the fat Jews they needed to fuel the crematoriums when they weren't using the open burn pits. The SS was a big believer in diversity (of BMI).

I thought this thread was screeching earlier about how much fuel it would have taken to burn all the bodies. Don’t you know fat bodies are harder to burn? Because they contain more water??

Dude. Im not frustrated. I was just asking for accommodation and agreement. Chugger wants everyone to be nice to him but also wants to refuse to compromise.

I thought the offer was reasonable. And Hitler I.e. us, me etc are simply being reasonable as usual.

Look. Mattogno did a study on the healthcare system. It's been out a few years now and it's free as pdf on codoh.

Dozens of mass graves have been fond at Belzec.

Even Mattogno admits these could accomodate 170,000 cadavers . Odd even on his estimate for the Nazis to have dug so many massive graves for a "transit camp." where people supposedly stayed only briefly.

And of course Mattogno underestimates how starved these (overwhelming ghettoized Polish) Jews were, hence his far-too-low but still striking figure of how many could have been buried.

Why just make shit up about what Mattogno says when you can just quote him? You trying to play us again homie?

One thing that I think some deniers don’t get is the purpose of learning about the holocaust.

For me, the holocaust is the intentional killing of millions of innocent people, and is a great case study on how extreme nationalism, propaganda, and manipulation can lead to terrible tragedies. Worrying about whether or not 5 or 6 million died, or even how they were murdered, is less relevant to the fact that nazis tried to murder millions, and succeeded in it.

Even if the holocaust was all falsified, you can always look at the many other genocides and atrocities done by, say, Imperial Japan, or the USSR, or the many communist regimes, etc etc. A very similar message would still come from those countries.

Dude. Why tell us this?

Do you think if a Nazi like knew the purpose of the holocaust education it would help everyone see how not a hoax it is?

Is this an implicit admission that it's a hoax?