The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

Have you ever heard the idiom; “you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts”?


Bullshit. If you are so confident; show me a citation. A source. Like I have done for you.

Edit: here’s another! I can literally put a new source describing Aktion Reinhard in every post I write for the thread. Can you give me even one citation that isn’t pulled out your ass??

From Belzec: Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological research and history.
Holocaust handbook Volume 9.
Page 103.
"“I arranged for a talk with Hstuf. Höfle for Monday, the 16th of March
1942, namely at 17:30 hours. In the course of the discussion the following was explained by Hstuf. Höfle: It would be expedient to divide the transports of Jews arriving in the
Lublin district at the station of origin into employable and unemployable Jews. If it is not possible to make this distinction at the departure station, then the transport will have to be divided in Lublin in the manner mentioned above. All unemployable Jews are to come to Bezec [Bełżec], the outermost
border station in the Zamosz district. Hstuf. Höfle is thinking of building a large camp in which the employable Jews can be registered in a file system according to their occupations and requisitioned from there. Piaski is being made Jew-free and will be the collection point for the
Jews coming out of the Reich. Trawnicki [Trawniki] is not at present occupied by Jews.
H. asks where on the Dęblin-Trawnicki route 60,000 Jews can be unloaded. Informed of the Jewish transports now departing from here, H. explained that of the 500 Jews arriving in Susiec, those who were unemployable could be sorted out and sent to Bezec. According to a government teletype dated March 4, 1942, a Jewish transport, whose destination was the Trawnicki station, is rolling out of the Protectorate. These Jews are not unloaded in Trawnicki, but have been brought to Izbiza. An inquiry of the Zamosz district, asking to be able to request 200 Jews from there for work, was answered in the affirmative by H. In conclusion he stated that he could accept 4-5 transports of 1,000
Jews to the terminal station Bezec daily. These Jews would cross the border and never return to the General Gouvernement.”

The I being Fritz Reuter, employee of the Department of Population and Welfare in the Office of the Governor General for the District of Lublin.

 

[mrolonzo]

Ok name an individual Jew deported in Action Reinhardt that made it "east". This was your claim. There's a challenge here which I think is still ongoing. http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2011/07/challenge-to-supporters-of-revisionist.html

Too bad. Rudolf has a PHD level chem background.

I didn't say every jew going east went through AR. We have direct transfers east of about 66000 during 41 to 42.


What do you mean too bad? Too bad for who and what for?

 

[Stan]

From Belzec: Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological research and history.
Holocaust handbook Volume 9.
Page 103.
"“I arranged for a talk with Hstuf. Höfle for Monday, the 16th of March
1942, namely at 17:30 hours. In the course of the discussion the following was explained by Hstuf. Höfle: It would be expedient to divide the transports of Jews arriving in the
Lublin district at the station of origin into employable and unemployable Jews. If it is not possible to make this distinction at the departure station, then the transport will have to be divided in Lublin in the manner mentioned above. All unemployable Jews are to come to Bezec [Bełżec], the outermost
border station in the Zamosz district. Hstuf. Höfle is thinking of building a large camp in which the employable Jews can be registered in a file system according to their occupations and requisitioned from there. Piaski is being made Jew-free and will be the collection point for the
Jews coming out of the Reich. Trawnicki [Trawniki] is not at present occupied by Jews.
H. asks where on the Dęblin-Trawnicki route 60,000 Jews can be unloaded. Informed of the Jewish transports now departing from here, H. explained that of the 500 Jews arriving in Susiec, those who were unemployable could be sorted out and sent to Bezec. According to a government teletype dated March 4, 1942, a Jewish transport, whose destination was the Trawnicki station, is rolling out of the Protectorate. These Jews are not unloaded in Trawnicki, but have been brought to Izbiza. An inquiry of the Zamosz district, asking to be able to request 200 Jews from there for work, was answered in the affirmative by H. In conclusion he stated that he could accept 4-5 transports of 1,000
Jews to the terminal station Bezec daily. These Jews would cross the border and never return to the General Gouvernement.”

The I being Fritz Reuter, employee of the Department of Population and Welfare in the Office of the Governor General for the District of Lublin.

This citation doesn’t really speak to your claim (Aktion Reinhard was a financial program to seperate Jews from their valuables on the way out of German territory) but let’s address it anyway.

1.) Nazis are well known for their use of euphemism in documents describing the day to day operations of the Holocaust. After the political fallout of Aktion T4, Hitler and Co. got smart and started using newspeak like “resettlement”. Jews “unable to work” are supposed to be exterminated; per Himmler. But, if 6 million or so Jews actually had been resettled, at least some of them would have returned to Europe after the end of the war, and this doesn’t occur. Shipments of Jews to Belzec just go “further east” and that’s the last of these people.

2.) the author you’re citing is Carlo Mattogno, whose only claim to expertise is self-attested: not even his own web page names a specific university or degree to vet his “expert” status. He’s a clear example of a Holocaust denier who assumes the mantle of an educated expert, but it’s really his denialist beliefs leading his work, not evidence. If you think it’s reasonable to not believe Jewish Holocaust museums because they’re Jewish, then I’m justified in saying Mattogno is a duplicitous piece of shit devoid of scholarly integrity.

https://phdn.org/negation/gravediggers/gom-2000-carlo_mattogno.html

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

Gradually,

 

[Chugger]

The I being Fritz Reuter, employee of the Department of Population and Welfare in the Office of the Governor General for the District of Lublin.

That's a civilian authority that was helping with deportations. Reuter was working under Turk, who I've mentioned here . Is your expectation that the SS would reveal the nature of top secret death camps to lower level employees who had nothing to do with the killing operation?

I didn't say every jew going east went through AR. We have direct transfers east of about 66000 during 41 to 42.

Yeah this topic came up with Rapechu. Historians agree there were transports of non-working mostly German and Austrian Jews during this time period. And there is copious witness and documentary evidence of them reaching the East and existing there, at least for a little while (records reveal most were killed by 1942).

But why is there evidence of this transfer, but zilch for the AR deportation, which was more than 20 times larger?

 

[Chugger]

the author you’re citing is Carlo Mattogno,

Stan, I appreciate your efforts here and interest in history, but it is absolutely fair for @mrolonzo to use this passage, which is also frequently cited by mainstream historians (and myself I believe, earlier in this thread). Mattogno is just relaying it. Rather what is suspect is the interpretation this is strong evidence of resettlement (see my post above for reasoning).

 

[mgc]

Hey Chugger,

Out of curiosity which of the Topf patent applications are you citing? 1942 or the post-war reapplication?

As I said the other day I agree that it would be good to have original copies of these, and I will try to get them in the coming weeks.

Details are fun, but to get back to the big picture for a moment - The problem deniers have is the disappearance of millions of Jews in the Nazi camp system as a whole during the war. Documents showing, for example, able bodied Jews moved from one camp to another to work does not help solve the problem. Mattogno's resettlement theory-according to which at least 1.4 of Jews were transited out of the camp system into a permanent resettlement-would partially solve that problem, but that theory is humiliated by the fact that there is zero physical, testimonial, or evidence of of a settlement of Jews, even though this settlement would have existed in the 1940s and would have had more people than contemporary Estonia does.

 

[Lemmingwise]

oh you're just shooting the shit, doing corpse math for fun? it's a weird thing to do even if you need to to win a debate. but carry on

I'm trying to describe what he meant. For your benefit. I can't look in his head. I thought it more polite to word it that way to him.

 

[Chugger]

Hey Chugger,

Out of curiosity which of the Topf patent applications are you citing? 1942 or the post-war reapplication?

As I said the other day I agree that it would be good to have original copies of these, and I will try to get them in the coming weeks.

No idea, that's above my pay grade. Out of curiosity, can anyone show up at the archive and get access? Do they typically let you see the original?

 

[Stan]

Stan, I appreciate your efforts here and interest in history, but it is absolutely fair for @mrolonzo to use this passage, which is also frequently cited by mainstream historians (and myself I believe, earlier in this thread). Mattogno is just relaying it. Rather what is suspect is the interpretation this is strong evidence of resettlement (see my post above for reasoning).

I understand what you’re saying and I apologize if I’m being unclear. The quote is genuine, but @mrlonzo (and Mattogno) is deliberately misinterpreting its meaning. I’m debunking Mattogno now in case more crap by him is brought up in support of say, crematories in Auschwitz or some other topic.

 

[mrolonzo]

This citation doesn’t really speak to your claim (Aktion Reinhard was a financial program to seperate Jews from their valuables on the way out of German territory) but let’s address it anyway.

True enough. Finance wasn't the only function of these camps, that's the current thinking.

1.) Nazis are well known for their use of euphemism in documents describing the day to day operations of the Holocaust. After the political fallout of Aktion T4, Hitler and Co. got smart and started using newspeak like “resettlement”. Jews “unable to work” are supposed to be exterminated; per Himmler. But, if 6 million or so Jews actually had been resettled, at least some of them would have returned to Europe after the end of the war, and this doesn’t occur. Shipments of Jews to Belzec just go “further east” and that’s the last of these people.

Nope. Nobody 'got smart' and started switching words. That's a cope.

Jews unable to work were being treated in Auschwitz, so again, nope.

Nobody says 6 million Jews were resettled. And there are plenty of Jewish 'survivors' post war.

2.) the author you’re citing is Carlo Mattogno, whose only claim to expertise is self-attested: not even his own web page names a specific university or degree to vet his “expert” status. He’s a clear example of a Holocaust denier who assumes the mantle of an educated expert, but it’s really his denialist beliefs leading his work, not evidence. If you think it’s reasonable to not believe Jewish Holocaust museums because they’re Jewish, then I’m justified in saying Mattogno is a duplicitous piece of shit devoid of scholarly integrity.

https://phdn.org/negation/gravediggers/gom-2000-carlo_mattogno.html

He's currently the leading author in all holocaust research. He edits a catholic newspaper I believe, otherwise he researches the holocaust. I don't think it's reasonable to dis believe a Jewish holocaust museum just because it's Jewish at all. Nor does any serious revisionist. And his work is replete with actual evidence. So no, just no.

And what's this last article? How dare you foist this foolishness on me?!

 

[mgc]

No idea, that's above my pay grade. Out of curiosity, can anyone show up at the archive and get access? Do they typically let you see the original?

In general, yes. You have to make an appointment and explain your purpose. But you do not need to have any kind of formal credentials, such a requirement would be pretty anti-intellecutal.

It is a learning process though in terms of how to use them, both historical archives in general and an individual archive (say the Foreign Office archives in Berlin) specifically. But one that most people could learn with some time investment.

If you have never used an archive before it is best to note that in an email to them so they can send you the standardized guides that most archives have as to best practices in archives, how to use theirs in particular, etc.

 

[mgc]

I have to admit that from what I have read of Mattogno, he does not cite fake sources. This is common denier practice -like the "CIA" document Striker cited on telegram the other day, or the deliberately mistranslated "Red Cross" document that is not actually from the Red Cross. But Mattogno and Rudolf do not seem to do this.

Mattogno's problem is bad and implausible analysis, like believing 1.4 million Jews were transited out of the camps and resettled despite zero physical evidence of this settlement (which again would have been bigger than contemporary Estonia) having existed.

 

[Bonesjones]

Hey Chugger,

Out of curiosity which of the Topf patent applications are you citing? 1942 or the post-war reapplication?

As I said the other day I agree that it would be good to have original copies of these, and I will try to get them in the coming weeks.

Why do you care about the patent at all, it can't be proven to be used anywhere, so it's literally less than nothing. It can't even be proven to functionally exist.

Comparing it to modern forced air furnaces only makes you look even dumber since you now need to prove they were using a much more modern design. You've complicated your own need for evidence again. Since you don't even know what you are arguing just trying to find facts to fill your narrative.

 

[mgc]

The design was used at Auschwitz during the war. It had not yet been used during the time of the 1942 patent application. The design was developed in response to special Nazi cremation needs.

The engineering report you are referring to called it "probable" that the Topf cremas were used during the war. This document was from 1985, in Communist Poland, when we had a very limited documentary record from Auschwitz. The authors could call their assessment no more than "probable" because of this limited evidence - they had eyewitness testimony and the Topf patent application. But they did not have other documentary evidence. (Pressac's 1989 book was really the first to delve into the documentary record at Auschwitz).

But in the last 37 years, after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Polish People's Republic, numerous corroborating documents have been found that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Topf method was used. These include internal records from the Topf and Sons company and internal Auschwitz records related to massive cremation needs, the installation of Topf cremas, and the massive cremation capacity those cremas has created at Auschwitz. Therefore, in 2022, it is more than probable in view of all the documents we now have at hand, which we did not have in 1985. We know beyond a reasonable doubt that the Topf cremas were used and that his method was remarkably fuel efficient.

The 1985 engineering analysis is still relevant however because it shows that, in their expert opinions, the Topf method could work as eyewtinesses allege, in a massively fuel efficient way. Meaning it is not a violation of the laws of physics or whatever other nonsense you guys have come out with.

 

[Chugger]

I understand what you’re saying and I apologize if I’m being unclear. The quote is genuine, but @mrlonzo (and Mattogno) is deliberately misinterpreting its meaning. I’m debunking Mattogno now in case more crap by him is brought up in support of say, crematories in Auschwitz or some other topic.

I don't know if I would use the term deliberate. It's hard for me to even blame deniers for using this quote, it's probably the best evidence for 'transit camp hypothesis' (this is a skinniest kid at fat camp type comment)

Mattogno is one of the 'scholarly' revisionists, that is he accepts the authenticity of most documents and awkwardly works his narrative around them. HC blog put out a great and very readable book about this topic here which addresses Action Reinhardt and exposes the flawed methodology of Mattogno and his buddies. It's invaluable as a primer to this subject (in before @mrolonzo calls the HC bloggers charlatans or some such lol)

 

[mrolonzo]

That's a civilian authority that was helping with deportations. Reuter was working under Turk, who I've mentioned here . Is your expectation that the SS would reveal the nature of top secret death camps to lower level employees who had nothing to do with the killing operation?

Yes of course. This was a vast governmental physical operation so there were no big secrets as such.

Yeah this topic came up with Rapechu. Historians agree there were transports of non-working mostly German and Austrian Jews during this time period. And there is copious witness and documentary evidence of them reaching the East and existing there, at least for a little while (records reveal most were killed by 1942).

But why is there evidence of this transfer, but zilch for the AR deportation, which was more than 20 times larger?

Indeed. In fact the AR records are short for all kinds of records of people going, empty trains, full trains, going there, going back etc.

What do you mean "Records reveal most were killed by 42.".....
E Struach in 1948 is it? And nazis sent them east then killed them and made them disappear? Is that your sorry story?

I don't know if I would use the term deliberate. It's hard for me to even blame deniers for using this quote, it's probably the best evidence for 'transit camp hypothesis' (this is a skinniest kid at fat camp type comment)

Mattogno is one of the 'scholarly' revisionists, that is he accepts the authenticity of most documents and awkwardly works his narrative around them. HC blog put out a great and very readable book about this topic here which addresses Action Reinhardt and exposes the flawed methodology of Mattogno and his buddies. It's invaluable as a primer to this subject (in before @mrolonzo calls the HC bloggers charlatans or some such lol)

Yes. This is the famous cut and paste manifesto these assholes tried out.

It was debunked in another authoritative work ;
The
“Extermination Camps” of
“Aktion Reinhardt” An Analysis and Refutation
of Factitious “Evidence,” Deceptions and Flawed Argumentation of the “Holocaust Controversies” Bloggers

2015
Carlo Mattogno Thomas Kues Jürgen Graf

They never managed another attempt despite their excellent resources and don't intend to try.

 

[Bonesjones]

The design was used at Auschwitz during the war. It had not yet been used during the time of the 1942 patent application. The design was developed in response to special Nazi cremation needs.

The engineering report you are referring to called it "probable" that the Topf cremas were used during the war. This document was from 1985, in Communist Poland, when we had a very limited documentary record from Auschwitz. The authors could call their assessment no more than "probable" because of this limited evidence - they had eyewitness testimony and the Topf patent application. But they did not have other documentary evidence. (Pressac's 1989 book was really the first to delve into the documentary record at Auschwitz).

But in the last 37 years, after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Polish People's Republic, numerous corroborating documents have been found that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Topf method was used. These include internal records from the Topf and Sons company and internal Auschwitz records related to cremation needs and cremation capacity at Auschwitz. Therefore, in 2022, it is more than probable in view of all the documents we now have at hand, which we did not have in 1985.

The 1985 engineering analysis is still relevant however because it shows that, in their expert opinions, the Topf method could work as eyewtinesses allege. Meaning it is not a violation of the laws of physics or whatever other nonsense you guys have come out with.

Where was it used exactly? You can't just say it was used and not provide physical evidence for one. Oh but wait, you immediately contradict yourself and say it must be used because people said it had to be. Since again you've started with a narrative and need to piece together facts to make it work. Instead of you know, starting with what physical evidence that exists and going from there.

 

[Chugger]

In fact the AR records are short for all kinds of records of people going,

Sorry allow me to clarify the question

Why is there evidence of 66k Jews making into Russia in 41-42, but zilch for the Jews deported in AR, a 20 times larger population?

We are in agreement there is tons of evidence of Jews being deported and reaching Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno. And it seems we are in agreement there is no evidence of anyone deported thru these camps reaching USSR territory.

 

[mgc]

From Belzec: Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological research and history.
Holocaust handbook Volume 9.
Page 103.
"“I arranged for a talk with Hstuf. Höfle for Monday, the 16th of March
1942, namely at 17:30 hours. In the course of the discussion the following was explained by Hstuf. Höfle: It would be expedient to divide the transports of Jews arriving in the
Lublin district at the station of origin into employable and unemployable Jews. If it is not possible to make this distinction at the departure station, then the transport will have to be divided in Lublin in the manner mentioned above. All unemployable Jews are to come to Bezec [Bełżec], the outermost
border station in the Zamosz district. Hstuf. Höfle is thinking of building a large camp in which the employable Jews can be registered in a file system according to their occupations and requisitioned from there. Piaski is being made Jew-free and will be the collection point for the
Jews coming out of the Reich. Trawnicki [Trawniki] is not at present occupied by Jews.
H. asks where on the Dęblin-Trawnicki route 60,000 Jews can be unloaded. Informed of the Jewish transports now departing from here, H. explained that of the 500 Jews arriving in Susiec, those who were unemployable could be sorted out and sent to Bezec. According to a government teletype dated March 4, 1942, a Jewish transport, whose destination was the Trawnicki station, is rolling out of the Protectorate. These Jews are not unloaded in Trawnicki, but have been brought to Izbiza. An inquiry of the Zamosz district, asking to be able to request 200 Jews from there for work, was answered in the affirmative by H. In conclusion he stated that he could accept 4-5 transports of 1,000
Jews to the terminal station Bezec daily. These Jews would cross the border and never return to the General Gouvernement.”

The I being Fritz Reuter, employee of the Department of Population and Welfare in the Office of the Governor General for the District of Lublin.

In general, how does this Reuter note support for the denier thesis? Nobody says that all Jews were to be killed right away, able bodied could be exploited for labor and transited to work camps to be worked to death.

The only line that I can even imagine being relevant to your "case" is the bit at the end about 'crossing the border and never returning' (to the General Government).

Of course we would just call that a euphemism for murder, and this a plausible explanation since we know the final solution was a secret and not to be discussed in explicit detail in documents that could be intercepted and use for anti-Nazi propaganda. (Of course, there are numerous documents in which the Germans 'slip up' and explicitly refer to the mass murder of the Jews, many of which I have posted on this thread.)

You would say it is meant literally, that they are being transited out of the camps to some permanent settlement across the border. But you still have the problem that there is exactly zero evidence - physical or infrastructural, testimonial, economic, - of a resettlement of Jews having existed, 'across the border' or elsewhere.

By the way 11 (27 March 1942) days later Goebbels wrote in his diary about the actual fate of the deportees arriving in Lublin and being sent to Belzec, i.e. those referred to by Reuter -

Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said about 60 percent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 percent can be used for forced labor.

So Goebbels is saying that the non-able bodied Jews, whom Reuter refers to as "crossing the border and never returning", are actually being killed in barbaric fashion.