The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

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Chugger said:
Even the most hardened deniers on codoh will admit Nazi colonization plans of USSR

"So Hitler eventually decided to colonise the territory of the USSR, big whoop."

My most sympathetic appraisal of Nazi actions here is that colonizing an advanced and enormously populated nation means mass resistance is inevitable, and the only way to overcome this is with extreme brutality, reprisals etc . Nazis also had to maintain their supply lines, so tamping down on partisan activity was vital. These conditions were not present in the west, or even areas like Czechoslovakia, to further expound on my answer to @Lemmingwise 's "question"

war of annihilation is a broad term with long history of use. You could argue that the wars conducted by the Allies against Germany and Japan qualify here, but whatever was happening in the USSR was on a different level
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Certainly Hitler wanted more space to the east. Germans had lived in the east for some time previously. As Britain did, Poland did, Russia and the USSR did, as America did, as the ussr did, as Japan did, as France did. And the allies had no problem changing German borders and other borders either. None of that meant being particularly brutal to Slavs. In fact they were welcomed as liberators. There was no war of annihilation. That's just a cope for the lack of a holocaust.
 
mrolonzo said:
As Britain did, Poland did, Russia and the USSR did, as America did, as the ussr did, as Japan did, as France did
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Can you think of any historical example similar to what Germany planned to do with USSR?

Keep in mind things like the colonial effort they were undertaking was going to be part of a war that would cost tens of millions of lives and necessitate forced displacement of tens of millions of people

also keep in mind documents like this , which had the full support of Hitler, which outlined that the subject "alien races" would not be allowed to attend middle school, or taught how to read

A basic issue in the solution of all these problems is the question of schooling and thus the question of sifting and selecting the young. For the non-German population of the East there must be no higher school than the four-grade elementary school. The sole goal of this school is to be--

Simply arithmetic up to 500 at the most; writing of one's name; the doctrine that it is a divine law to obey the Germans and to be honest, industrious, and good. I don't think that reading is necessary.

Apart from this school there are to be no schools at all in the East.
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I have a conspiracy theory that the reason Nazis are villified as the eternal villains of Human history in media, despite Stalinism, despite Maoism, despite Genghis Khan etc etc.... is because Hitler pissed off the wrong people.

In 1933 the King and Future Queen were happy to do the Nazi salute.
CKJj6zyWsAESnke.jpg

In 1938 the Nazis captured a Rothschild and seized his assets.
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In 1941 Pearl Harbor is attacked while the majority of the fleet are out on exercises. Drawing them into the War.
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At the time, the Japanese were honorary Nazis, along with other nations like the Italians. But that fact is often brushed over or ignored.
CwMVc15UMAAwMYq.jpg
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But then again, those other nations didn't arrest a Rothschild and seize their assets.
 
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Chugger said:
Can you think of any historical example similar to what Germany planned to do with USSR?

Keep in mind things like the colonial effort they were undertaking was going to be part of a war that would cost tens of millions of lives and necessitate forced displacement of tens of millions of people

also keep in mind documents like this , which had the full support of Hitler, which outlined that the subject "alien races" would not be allowed to attend middle school, or taught how to read
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Good lord. What a load of vague nonsense. General plan Ost? The Himmler memo? Hitler was certainly varying in his attitude to Poles given the long standing animosity but he respected Polish leaders. I already told you they had Slavs in their army. And I showed you their regulations. If you want to tell us that they disobeyed orders then go ahead.
 
mrolonzo said:
Good lord. What a load of vague nonsense. General plan Ost? The Himmler memo? Hitler was certainly varying in his attitude to Poles given the long standing animosity but he respected Polish leaders. I already told you they had Slavs in their army. And I showed you their regulations. If you want to tell us that they disobeyed orders then go ahead.
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Konrad Morgen, SS Judge, had this to say about the treatment of Slavs in the east in 1942

Disobedience and disrespect are mainly punished with corporal penalties by uniformed personnel on the spot. Public prosecutors, police, and security officers cannot handle native populations of foreign races without the application of the utmost force, including as a means of extracting confessions. . . .

In addition, there is among our men a widespread mental attitude to the effect that the eastern region, as an area for future German immigration, is to be freed up for the Germans through the extirpation (Ausrottung) and annihilation (Vernichtung) of the native population, and that the population is therefore to be tolerated as a currently necessary evil and treated as such.

Given this situation and this mental attitude, transgressions and excesses in the use of bodily force are quite understandable. . . . Combatting this with penal provision is pointless. . . .
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There are hundreds of documents like this, and you Nazi apologists never seem to have anything (except they used Slavs to bolster their decimated armies??) . That's why no historians take you seriously, and everybody with a sense of irony can appreciate you are defending the most anti-white faction in history, Whatever you think the Jews have done to white people, the Nazis put them to shame when it came to the "alien races"/"human animals" of the East.
Lemmingwise said:
Morgenthau plan, cambodian killing fields, chinese cultural revolution, great leap forward, holodomor.....
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A genocide in cambodia or wherever does not justify genocide of Slavs in the USSR . All these things are terrible and indefensible by any reasonable standard
 
Chugger said:
A genocide in cambodia or wherever does not justify genocide of Slavs in the USSR . All these things are terrible and indefensible by any reasonable standard
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I'm not justifying anything. I just answered your question. A novel concept to you, I'm sure.

Lmao, you're so dumb.
 
Lemmingwise said:
I'm not justifying anything. I just answered your question. A novel concept to you, I'm sure.

Lmao, you're so dumb.
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The point of my question was to show (mostly to mrolonzo) that German policy in the east was indefensible and any and all resistance to it was justified. sorry someone stuck a klomp up your ass
 
Lemmingwise said:
As indefensible as the US policy for Germany, via the morgenthau plan.
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yup. thankfully it wasn't carried out once they realized it would lead to mass starvation . mass starvation in USSR, on the other hand, was an acknowledged reality for Nazi planners and didn't seem to bother anyone once it happened

Herbert Backe in 1941:
1.) The war can only be continued if the entire Wehrmacht is fed from Russia in the third year of the war.
2.) If we take what we need out of the country, there can be no doubt that tens of millions of people will die of starvation.
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Himmler: mass pow deaths were "by no means regrettable from the standpoint of lost generations "
 
Lemmingwise said:
Yep, for both.
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ok the Himmler speech quoted above and more precise documents showing hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs dying every month are fake. got it. the modern estimates of ~15 million non-Jewish dead are suspect or no big deal. The decision to remove urban areas from existence and deny surrender because of the problems of feeding the inhabitants also no big deal. nothing to see here folks. move right along

The Führers Decision on Leningrad (Entschluß der Führers über Leningrad), transmitted by the Naval Warfare Command (Seekriegsleitung) to Army Group North on 29.09.1941
Subject: Future of the City of Petersburg

II. The Führer is determined to remove the city of Petersburg from the face of the earth. After the defeat of Soviet Russia there can be no interest in the continued existence of this large urban area. Finland has likewise manifested no interest in the maintenance of the city immediately at its new border.

III. It is intended to encircle the city and level it to the ground by means of artillery bombardment using every caliber of weapon, and continual air
bombardment.

IV. Requests for surrender resulting from the city’s encirclement will be denied, since the problem of relocating and feeding the population cannot and should not be solved by us. In this war for our very existence, there can be no interest on our part in maintaining even a part of this large urban population. If necessary forcible removal to the eastern Russian area is to be carried out.
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The only reason I'm skeptical about the official account of the holocaust itself is because.

1. Today several countries threaten jailtime for denying it or even contesting some parts of it. No other genocide in human history is treated that way.

2. It would take far more manpower and infrastructure to kill millions and hide the evidence, than to simply keep them alive. How is a country supposed to wage a World War alone with such resources devoted to killing millions? It's lunacy. Not to say that atrocities didn't happen, its war, this will happen. But I repeatedly hear the line "Oh the Germans are so efficient they would kill them all". The most efficient thing is to keep them alive.

These are all arguments I would attribute to common wisdom, but it seems no one works on that level anymore. They want a snopes factcheck before they will believe anything, even if it goes against what their own experience tells them.
 
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Chugger said:
Konrad Morgen, SS Judge, had this to say about the treatment of Slavs in the east in 1942



There are hundreds of documents like this, and you Nazi apologists never seem to have anything (except they used Slavs to bolster their decimated armies??) . That's why no historians take you seriously, and everybody with a sense of irony can appreciate you are defending the most anti-white faction in history, Whatever you think the Jews have done to white people, the Nazis put them to shame when it came to the "alien races"/"human animals" of the East.

A genocide in cambodia or wherever does not justify genocide of Slavs in the USSR . All these things are terrible and indefensible by any reasonable standard
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Dude. You quoted Konrad Morgen without source. Which is rude.

This an SS judge who prosecuted SS soldiers for murdering inmates and sentenced two to death for murdering 4 at Buchenwald years previously. Not 400,444 mind.........4. He took eight months to find the evidence and dropped charges of embezzlement against Ilse Koch.

Anyway yeah. He probably did think there were excesses in the asymmetric warfare in the east. But we can get to what actual evidence there is for intentional murder on a mass scale (........ very little.....) . In the meantime, guess who appointed him?

None other than the second most evil man in history......Himmler.


Chugger said:
ok the Himmler speech quoted above and more precise documents showing hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs dying every month are fake. got it. the modern estimates of ~15 million non-Jewish dead are suspect or no big deal. The decision to remove urban areas from existence and deny surrender because of the problems of feeding the inhabitants also no big deal. nothing to see here folks. move right along

The Führers Decision on Leningrad (Entschluß der Führers über Leningrad), transmitted by the Naval Warfare Command (Seekriegsleitung) to Army Group North on 29.09.1941
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Dude, you're doing it all wrong. You're supposed to be doing the holocaust routine, not the excesses of war. This is not the holocaust you're looking for.
 
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0Chance said:
2. It would take far more manpower and infrastructure to kill millions and hide the evidence, than to simply keep them alive. How is a country supposed to wage a World War alone with such resources devoted to killing millions? It's lunacy. Not to say that atrocities didn't happen, its war, this will happen. But I repeatedly hear the line "Oh the Germans are so efficient they would kill them all". The most efficient thing is to keep them alive.
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I'm willing to believe the Communists collectively killed 100 million people, I don't think 6 million is too tall an order by comparison. The Holodomor lasted for only a year and it killed off 4 million people just by taking their food and imposing a passport system. More liberal estimates set the death toll at 7 million. For comparison, the Holocaust took 4 years.

It's not too terribly difficult to kill that many people if you're the government and you know what vectors to target.
 
MarvinTheParanoidAndroid said:
I'm willing to believe the Communists collectively killed 100 million people, I don't think 6 million is too tall an order by comparison. The Holodomor lasted for only a year and it killed off 4 million people just by taking their food and imposing a passport system. More liberal estimates set the death toll at 7 million. For comparison, the Holocaust took 4 years.

It's not too terribly difficult to kill that many people if you're the government and you know what vectors to target.
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Why do you just believe numbers put in front of you?

The 100 million isn't fully backed either. Nor is the holodomor. Nor is the holocaust.

Paranoid android? Dude, youre literally just taking whatever is given to you. Stop just believing things then telling us you can see how such and such was done when you literally don't know any of this. For your own sake.
 
mrolonzo said:
Why do you just believe numbers put in front of you?

The 100 million isn't fully backed either. Nor is the holodomor. Nor is the holocaust.

Paranoid android? Dude, youre literally just taking whatever is given to you. Stop just believing things then telling us you can see how such and such was done when you literally don't know any of this. For your own sake.
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"Chang and Halliday use death rates determined by "Chinese demographers" for the years 1957–1963, subtract the average of the pre-and post-Leap death rates (1957, 1962, and 1963) from the death rates of each of the years 1958–1961, and multiply each yearly excess death rate by the year's population to determine excess deaths."

A Chinese woman and an Irish man looked at China's own census data and drew conclusions from the existing evidence as to how many people died in the Great Leap Forward.

It turns out that the figure is twice as much as we previously knew.

"One government document that has been internally circulated and seen by a former Communist Party official now at Princeton University says that 80 million died unnatural deaths -- most of them in the famine following the Great Leap Forward. This figure comes from the Tigaisuo, or the System Reform Institute, which was led by Zhao Ziyang, the deposed Communist Party chief, in the 1980s to study how to reform Chinese society."
 
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