The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

You should probably consider;

1. To what extent Trillions in today's terms or in 1944 terms is accurate and what number would be more accurate.

Trillions of dollars in today's terms is likely a 100,000x overestimate and in 1944 terms is much more, maybe 1,000,000x

 

[mrolonzo]

Trillions of dollars in today's terms is likely a 100,000x overestimate and in 1944 terms is much more, maybe 1,000,000x

Ok this is rather vague;

1. So what's something more like the actual number?

2. Are you taking into account the amount of zyklon operations done in the camps?

3. The amount of head shaving?

4. The vhf technology?

5. The hospital treatment?

6. These measures in every camp?

 

[soy_king]

I always like when people take some time to dive into stats and details on subjects in general. And I notice people barely engaged with this post until this point.

Considering the brunt of population loss in your post comes from these two, poland and ussr, I've isolated them for analysis.

I have a couple of follow up questions:

1. Why do you depend on a scientific census for poland in before the war, but what seems to be a jewish self-report after the war?
2. How did the latter gather their data?
3. Why did you use the strange USSR second date 1959? (If I recall correctly that is right at the moment they started to make movement out of the ussr almost impossible?) And which would have had considerable births as well as millions of gulag deaths confounding the results? Why not 1946 or something close to that in any case?
4. Do you agree that the USSR engaged in severe information manipulation and that it is hard to put trust into any numbers put forward during the time?

I've got some follow up questions probably, but I'd like to know your thoughts regarding these.

So my issue was that I had difficulty finding the actual census data online without specifically making requests to each respective countries central board of statistics, which I'm not going to do to prove a point to some speds. The scientific report seems to have verifiable data that it took from official census figures, and with respect to the polish reporting, my understanding was that these community reports were in some way connected to government reporting and so was likely corollary to Polands 1946 census. I can't really tell you though for sure bc I don't speak polish.

As for the ussr, I freely admit that those numbers are questionable, but not exactly for the reasons you'd think. The sources I found mentioned how these numbers aren't really verifiable bc there's inaccuracies in reporting due to double counting, issues with counting incarcerated persons, etc. however, I don't really see why they'd lie about the number of jews in their population bc they never really liked Jews and never really trumpeted muh 6 million as the reason the nazis were bad. They always harped on the camps being used to kill poor dindu commies, regardless of race. In any case, their reliance on having everyone register nationality in their passports is another reason I'd somewhat trust these figures over say their economic figures or health figures. the only reason I could see some fudging by the Soviets is to mask their gulag deaths and victims of repression, but from what I recall they really stopped the mass purges by the late 30s and those were usually geared towards people in positions of authority and intelligentsia, and that's a question I'm not going to go into bc this was enough of a time sink as it is.

As for using the 1959 census, that was the first post war census conducted by the ussr, so I used that. the rf is also very stingy about providing those records, which was super annoying.

Btw, I'm serious about not replying to the others, bc it's a waste of time replying to dishonest actors and I don't have the time or patience to mock single forum posters for their tism.

 

[Linako 2.0]

You should probably consider

1) Why it is you overcalculated a historical fact by a probable factor of 100,000
2) why you repeatedly asserted such an overcalculated figure was true
3) why you are treating the question of this fact as a negotiation

Why are you such a kike?

 

[Lemmingwise]

So my issue was that I had difficulty finding the actual census data online without specifically making requests to each respective countries central board of statistics, which I'm not going to do to prove a point to some speds. The scientific report seems to have verifiable data that it took from official census figures, and with respect to the polish reporting, my understanding was that these community reports were in some way connected to government reporting and so was likely corollary to Polands 1946 census. I can't really tell you though for sure bc I don't speak polish.

As for the ussr, I freely admit that those numbers are questionable, but not exactly for the reasons you'd think. The sources I found mentioned how these numbers aren't really verifiable bc there's inaccuracies in reporting due to double counting, issues with counting incarcerated persons, etc. however, I don't really see why they'd lie about the number of jews in their population bc they never really liked Jews and never really trumpeted muh 6 million as the reason the nazis were bad. They always harped on the camps being used to kill poor dindu commies, regardless of race. In any case, their reliance on having everyone register nationality in their passports is another reason I'd somewhat trust these figures over say their economic figures or health figures. the only reason I could see some fudging by the Soviets is to mask their gulag deaths and victims of repression, but from what I recall they really stopped the mass purges by the late 30s and those were usually geared towards people in positions of authority and intelligentsia, and that's a question I'm not going to go into bc this was enough of a time sink as it is.

As for using the 1959 census, that was the first post war census conducted by the ussr, so I used that. the rf is also very stingy about providing those records, which was super annoying.

Btw, I'm serious about not replying to the others, bc it's a waste of time replying to dishonest actors and I don't have the time or patience to mock single forum posters for their tism.

Thanks for giving your thoughts and answers.

I guess it ties back at chugger's earlier attempt at trying to prove the holocaust through lack of resettlement records to @Rapechu. A missing body doesn't exactly prove a murder and a lot of missing body's does not exactly prove a specific method of genocide. For example, the only USSR number is after their 1946-1947 famine. And the gulags were a big thing from the 1930s up to 1953, so it's only too convenient to be able to shove any deaths under the name of a defeated enemy. Who's going to whistleblow in the USSR?

You bring up an interesting point with the USSR as far as I know not having the kind of holocaust education (or "education" depending on point of view) as the west had. Although on the other hand, they were the ones to build things like the fake chimney at the camps, and the holocaust narrative ended up being constructed entirely in the area under their control after the war.

I'll keep the further questions to myself to respect your time. Your post seemed to come from a place of genuine curious inquiry and it's the kind of thing I like to engage with.

Just one clarifying question: you mentioned rf. What is rf?

 

[soy_king]

Thanks for giving your thoughts and answers.

I guess it ties back at chugger's earlier attempt at trying to prove the holocaust through lack of resettlement records to @Rapechu. A missing body doesn't exactly prove a murder and a lot of missing body's does not exactly prove a specific method of genocide. For example, the only USSR number is after their 1946-1947 famine. And the gulags were a big thing from the 1930s up to 1953, so it's only too convenient to be able to shove any deaths under the name of a defeated enemy. Who's going to whistleblow in the USSR?

You bring up an interesting point with the USSR as far as I know not having the kind of holocaust education (or "education" depending on point of view) as the west had. Although on the other hand, they were the ones to build things like the fake chimney at the camps, and the holocaust narrative ended up being constructed entirely in the area under their control after the war.

I'll keep the further questions to myself to respect your time. Your post seemed to come from a place of genuine curious inquiry and it's the kind of thing I like to engage with.

Just one clarifying question: you mentioned rf. What is rf?

that's fair, and I respect the fact that you're engaging from a place of genuine curiosity. I think it's definitely not a good thing to blindly trust the narrative, and I'll need to look into the fake chimney stuff, but when you start denying shit like the forced labor in Organization Todt wasn't real or that Einsatzgruppen happened at all then I think you've gone to far.

Rf is Russian Federation. I should've probably just said Russia lol.

 

[mrolonzo]

Thanks for giving your thoughts and answers.

I guess it ties back at chugger's earlier attempt at trying to prove the holocaust through lack of resettlement records to @Rapechu. A missing body doesn't exactly prove a murder and a lot of missing body's does not exactly prove a specific method of genocide. For example, the only USSR number is after their 1946-1947 famine. And the gulags were a big thing from the 1930s up to 1953, so it's only too convenient to be able to shove any deaths under the name of a defeated enemy. Who's going to whistleblow in the USSR?

You bring up an interesting point with the USSR as far as I know not having the kind of holocaust education (or "education" depending on point of view) as the west had. Although on the other hand, they were the ones to build things like the fake chimney at the camps, and the holocaust narrative ended up being constructed entirely in the area under their control after the war.

I'll keep the further questions to myself to respect your time. Your post seemed to come from a place of genuine curious inquiry and it's the kind of thing I like to engage with.

Just one clarifying question: you mentioned rf. What is rf?

Paraphrasing Thomas Dalton;

Another way to consider Jewish losses is total global Jewish numbers;
The most reliable numbers are those post war ie 11.5 mil in 1948 as per Jews own stats. Then 11.8 in 1955, 12.63 in 1970, 12.84 in 1980 etc. Roughly growing 0.3% p.a.
The world population in general growth rate is 1.8%. So it's only a sixth of that.
Going way back to the late 19th century we have Israeli estimates of 6 to 7 mil and a prewar figure of 17 to 18 mil.
Which is interesting, because that population change over that time requires a population growth rate of 1.4 % p.a. that is double the world average growth rate of 0.8% of the period and five times the growth rate post war during which time the Jews were claimed by their own outlets to be in a terrible state of existence.

that's fair, and I respect the fact that you're engaging from a place of genuine curiosity. I think it's definitely not a good thing to blindly trust the narrative, and I'll need to look into the fake chimney stuff, but when you start denying shit like the forced labor in Organization Todt wasn't real or that Einsatzgruppen happened at all then I think you've gone to far.

Rf is Russian Federation. I should've probably just said Russia lol.

The EG certainly existed but there are operational records, and incident reporting. Normally they would both match up but it this case, the former, coming naturally sources higher up, report high killing rates. The latter, coming directly from on the ground, report normal occasional actions.

Plus the records appararently showing the EG massacres here there and everywhere has them arriving before they've left.

Plus of course, there exists no orders, no plans, no reason, and no budget for such a monumental task as to commit mass murder on this scale.

Plus again, there are no bodies to back this up, nor are there any records of a large operation to go around the country digging up bodies and destroying all trace. Again, for this action, there exists no plans, no orders, no budget.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Another way to consider Jewish losses is total global Jewish numbers

I don't think that's very reliable. For example, if you just look at graphs of total german population, it's hard to identify when the war even happened, when you remove the year numbers. Same for UK, US, France, Netherlands, Finland and so on.

The only countries I've seen so far where total numbers visibly decreased is USSR, Poland, Romania (edit: also countries like latvia). There may be others on the east front that had significant population decrease, but I can't find any pre-war numbers for countries such as kazakhstan and uzbekistan, which would have given an interesting insight in how areas that weren't invaded had population loss, which would give some vague idea of comparison between deaths as a result of german invasion / war vs. result of ussr draft / gulags / famines.

As I've said numerous times in this thread, I know the 6 million number to be false. It's an admitted invention. And the fact that it's still touted on so many places and it being illegal to question ("diminishing the holocaust") in so many countries is what should make people angry. The protection of a lie is usually to protect a large distance from the stated point; how large I am unsure. I am almost as skeptical/suspicious of codoh as I am of nizkor. My biggest question, and one I do not expect to have answered satisfactorily in my lifetime if there was a plan for genocide or not, and if the numbers are closer to 1-2 million or 1-2 hundred thousand.

Although even in the case of there being both genocide and it being in the millions, I'd still be deeply suspicious of how this one got to be touted as the biggest and most important one, and we're to ignore the other genocides that end up being of comparable or larger sizes. Seeing this genocide be used to still blackmail companies and countries out of money, making it impossible for western countries to eliminate cosmetic surgery on babies (circumcision) with rhetoric based on this event is disgusting. The fact that jews use it to stoke fear in each other and rally against gentiles with it is similarly disgusting and makes a good number of them rubes as much as the rest of us.

 

[mrolonzo]

I don't think that's very reliable. For example, if you just look at graphs of total german population, it's hard to identify when the war even happened, when you remove the year numbers. Same for UK, US, France, Netherlands, Finland and so on.

The only countries I've seen so far where total numbers visibly decreased is USSR, Poland, Romania (edit: also countries like latvia). There may be others on the east front that had significant population decrease, but I can't find any pre-war numbers for countries such as kazakhstan and uzbekistan, which would have given an interesting insight in how areas that weren't invaded had population loss, which would give some vague idea of comparison between deaths as a result of german invasion / war vs. result of ussr draft / gulags / famines.

Where exactly do these numbers come from? Is it self reported numbers by Jewish agencies?

Have you read Thomas Dalton on this very subject?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Where exactly do these numbers come from? Is it self reported numbers by Jewish agencies?

I've only looked at them superficially, so in this case it's wikipedia "demography of [country]" and looking at "total population" per year. I'm very open to the idea that these numbers may be poor or fudged, if you have better sources.

The only thing I know is that they weren't fudged recently, as I've done similar broad spectrum checks 10-15 years ago and to the best of my memory, they seem comparable.

Ps. I have a bad habit of posting and then editing my post, and I made considerable edits after you must have read it, so you might want to reread the post you replied to.

 

[mrolonzo]

I've only looked at them superficially, so in this case it's wikipedia "demography of [country]. I'm very open to the idea that these numbers may be poor or fudged, if you have better sources.

The only thing I know is that they weren't fudged recently, as I've done similar broad spectrum checks 10-15 years ago and to the best of my memory, they seem comparable.

Ps. I have a bad habit of posting and then editing my post, and I made considerable edits after you must have read it, so you might want to reread the post you replied to.

Look instead of dancing around I'll just tell you. Pre war European numbers of Jews come directly from Jewish agencies of the time. They are pre war double the rate for the world at the time before settling to more normal and even lower rates post war. The current thinking is they're inflated pre war in order to boost the Zionist cause. Thomas Dalton breaks the various arguments down and details how the death numbers stack up.

Therefore the real reason there are no bodies in the holocaust is simply because they didn't exist in the first place.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Look instead of dancing around I'll just tell you. Pre war European numbers of Jews come directly from Jewish agencies of the time. They are pre war double the rate for the world at the time before settling to more normal and even lower rates post war. The current thinking is they're inflated pre war in order to boost the Zionist cause. Thomas Dalton breaks the various arguments down and details how the death numbers stack up.

Therefore the real reason there are no bodies in the holocaust is simply because they didn't exist in the first place.

I'm not talking about jewish population, I'm talking about total population. Despite the numerous of german deaths, the overall german population was barely affected. Same for the netherlands; despite the hardship and famine of the hungerwinter, where people would try to eat treebark (those that hadn't been cut down to stay warm) and such. Despite all those deaths, despite the german bombing of rotterdam to capture or the subsequent allied bombing of the netherlands, the total population of the netherlands does not seem to be affected by the war. And stunning as it is, the same goes for germany.

I'm drawing a comparison between total population giving a very poor picture, even with accurate stats, of what has happened. So it becomes almost irrelevant what the reported numbers are that you refer to.

Though if you have strong evidence that they're fudged, I'd love to hear your precise source anyways, but I don't take it as evidence that those jewish deaths happened targeted, rather than for example, during military service.

Or, as discussed earlier in the thread, in combat or reprisals defending their area, as a result of USSR propaganda calling for the death of every german.

 

[mrolonzo]

I'm not talking about jewish population, I'm talking about total population. Despite the numerous of german deaths, the overall german population was barely affected. Same for the netherlands; despite the hardship and famine of the hungerwinter, where people would try to eat treebark (those that hadn't been cut down to stay warm) and such. Despite all those deaths, despite the german bombing of rotterdam to capture or the subsequent allied bombing of the netherlands, the total population of the netherlands does not seem to be affected by the war. And stunning as it is, the same goes for germany.

I'm drawing a comparison between total population giving a very poor picture, even with accurate stats, of what has happened. So it becomes almost irrelevant what the reported numbers are that you refer to.

Though if you have strong evidence that they're fudged, I'd love to hear your precise source anyways, but I don't take it as evidence that those jewish deaths happened targeted, rather than for example, during military service.

Or, as discussed earlier in the thread, in combat or reprisals defending their area, as a result of USSR propaganda calling for the death of every german.

If you want to say that Europeans despite the war was barely affected that's not a problem. A blip of 20,000 here or there isn't really a problem for nations of millions. Im digging down on actual Jewish numbers because that's a basis for the allegation of the holocaust. As said, they're not coming from independent sources and the numbers of jews late 19th century give growth rates far above others. That's pretty good evidence something is wrong here. The only better evidence could be a tape record conversation of Jewish agencies bumping their numbers at some point. But whether they bumped them or not, the numbers are vague so the allegation by this line is weak anyway.

 

[Lemmingwise]

If you want to say that Europeans despite the war was barely affected that's not a problem. A blip of 20,000 here or there isn't really a problem for nations of millions. Im digging down on actual Jewish numbers because that's a basis for the allegation of the holocaust. As said, they're not coming from independent sources and the numbers of jews late 19th century give growth rates far above others. That's pretty good evidence something is wrong here. The only better evidence could be a tape record conversation of Jewish agencies bumping their numbers at some point. But whether they bumped them or not, the numbers are vague so the allegation by this line is weak anyway.

I thought the jewish world almanac changed numbers was a better smoking gun of fudged numbers. Or all the articles the 40 years before about 6 million jews, but whatever. In any case jewish loss of life is not evidence of a genocide anymore than russian or polish or romanian loss of life is evidence of genocide.

Have you read Thomas Dalton on this very subject?

Btw didn't see this question before. No.

 

[mrolonzo]

I thought the jewish world almanac changed numbers was a better smoking gun of fudged numbers. Or all the articles the 40 years before about 6 million jews, but whatever. In any case jewish loss of life is not evidence of a genocide anymore than russian or polish or romanian loss of life is evidence of genocide.


Btw didn't see this question before. No.

The world almanac thing is not really a smoking gun because there's dispute over exactly when these numbers were recorded and put out.
Best to start with undisputed actual long term rates that even Jews go with to get a better picture. The Jews claim their losses were by industrial murder, which is indeed historically novel and different. Worthy of many a lurid and lucrative story - which is why so many "first hand" accounts were so cringeworthy.

I could quote Dalton further but I may simply decide to quote actual sonderkommados. Just for a laugh at what these shysters managed to get away with.

 

[Chugger]

I thought the jewish world almanac changed numbers was a better smoking gun of fudged numbers. Or all the articles the 40 years before about 6 million jews, but whatever. In any case jewish loss of life is not evidence of a genocide anymore than russian or polish or romanian loss of life is evidence of genocide.

I have to add here, since soy_king did good work that shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

according to the very conservative numbers soy_king provided, European Jewish population declined by half. This would be the equivalent of Poland's population decreasing from 29 million to 15 million over the course of the war. Instead its population was 26 million in 1946. Poland's statistics may also be skewed by the fact Jewish population there decreased by 2.9 million over the course of the war.

Assuming the census numbers are accurate, genocide is heavily indicated.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Assuming the census numbers are accurate, genocide is heavily indicated.

Then the question would be why we don't see the same or comparable with other european countries, but we do see even higher population decrease in ussr territory?

 

[SITHRAK!]

All I know, my grandfather was at the liberation of Auschwitz.

He survived Omaha beach being 1 of 2 officers in his company to live. The other guy lost both of his legs...

But, that didn't break my grandfather. He could compartmentalize that...

No, what broke my grandfather was the shit he saw at the concentration camp...

The stuff he saw made him a raging alcholic for most of his life...

So, you could debate the exact death toll if you wish...

But nothing, not even Normandy, or the Hedgerows of France with the 1st Infantry Division could prepare him for the carnage he saw that day....

It was so inhuman it was almost alien...

Bodies of naked children were stacked in piles like garbage. That's just the beginning...

Apparently he witnessed so much horror that your family has only been able to finish sentences with ellipses ever since.

Also, the First Infantry Division never went anywhere near Auschwitz (and it was liberated by the Soviets, anyway). So maybe your Grandfather was just making up excuses for being a drunk?

 

[mrolonzo]

Apparently he witnessed so much horror that your family has only been able to finish sentences with ellipses ever since.

Also, the First Infantry Division never went anywhere near Auschwitz (and it was liberated by the Soviets, anyway). So maybe your Grandfather was just making up excuses for being a drunk?

LMAO. Please change my disagree to a fully agree. Much respect. Devastating response. People lie about the holocaust in all kinds of ways. This....my grandfather story stuff is the most common.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Apparently he witnessed so much horror that your family has only been able to finish sentences with ellipses ever since.

Also, the First Infantry Division never went anywhere near Auschwitz (and it was liberated by the Soviets, anyway). So maybe your Grandfather was just making up excuses for being a drunk?

LMAO. Please change my disagree to a fully agree. Much respect. Devastating response. People lie about the holocaust in all kinds of ways. This....my grandfather story stuff is the most common.

I mean this whole account was shown to be pretty much impossible earlier in the thread:

No, 1st infantry movements were through southern france, into southern Germany, cutting into Czechoslovakia.

I guess at some point during the Battle of the Bulge, he was at Auchwitz.

It's wierd he wasn't present at the BoB, his division was though....

So your grandfather stormed Omaha beach, then joined a new army group to fight at Ardennes, where he was considered surplus to needs against the might of the German army and sent to Poland to walk westwards with the Red Army? Dude.