The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Bonesjones]

Special treatment? that's it? that doesn't imply anything mallicous unless you're going to split hairs and say that DA NAZZIES SPOKE IN CODE.

The code was actually about taking them for ice cream. They were only allowed vanilla, the horror.

 

[Chugger]

Special treatment? that's it? that doesn't imply anything mallicous unless you're going to split hairs and say that DA NAZZIES SPOKE IN CODE.

well special treatment is self-evidently code for something (when speaking of it being applied to both Jews and terminally sick Poles)

Heydrich, who is mentioned in this letter, helpfully enough provided a definition

 

[Lemmingwise]

Special treatment? that's it? that doesn't imply anything mallicous unless you're going to split hairs and say that DA NAZZIES SPOKE IN CODE.

I'm pretty sure there was at least one authentic document saying they needed more machine gun ammo, because they were perfect for the "sonderaktion". It doesn't imply resettlement or work camps in any case.

 

[Bonesjones]

I'm pretty sure there was at least one authentic document saying they needed more machine gun ammo, because they were perfect for the "sonderaktion". It doesn't imply resettlement or work camps in any case.

It does if the guards are using submachine guns to direct labor crews out in the open. If you are directing a work detail, you don't want a rifle in case they decide to attack you. This is clearly beyond the realm of possibility though.

 

[Lemmingwise]

It does if the guards are using submachine guns to direct labor crews out in the open. If you are directing a work detail, you don't want a rifle in case they decide to attack you. This is clearly beyond the realm of possibility though.

But you're not really running out of machine gun ammo if that's what it's used for, are you?

 

[Bonesjones]

But you're not really running out of machine gun ammo if that's what it's used for, are you?

As Rapechu posted repeatedly, they were constantly dealing with people running away and also partisan attacks.

They could also have been using ammo to kill game what with the lack of supplies caused by the war.

There's also a lack of accounting on what they were asking for in a quantifiable manner. Saying someone asked for more ammo is meaningless, do they want 100 rounds? 1000? 10000? How often were they needing resupply?

Trying to piece together what individual documents mean out of any greater context is pointless. This is why you have to hammer the reality and physicality of all claims.

Chugger claims entire cities worth of jews were gassed in vans, yet can't produce one provenly killed using that method nor one van used to kill them. That's on the level of seeing Bigfoot.

 

[Lemmingwise]

As Rapechu posted repeatedly, they were constantly dealing with people running away and also partisan attacks.

They could also have been using ammo to kill game what with the lack of supplies caused by the war.

There's also a lack of accounting on what they were asking for in a quantifiable manner. Saying someone asked for more ammo is meaningless, do they want 100 rounds? 1000? 10000? How often were they needing resupply?

Trying to piece together what individual documents mean out of any greater context is pointless. This is why you have to hammer the reality and physicality of all claims.

Chugger claims entire cities worth of jews were gassed in vans, yet can't produce one provenly killed using that method nor one van used to kill them. That's on the level of seeing Bigfoot.

I've said sufficiently what I think of Chugger and gas vans. As much as I think most of what we hear about holocaust is exaggerated, sufficiently so that the term holocaust itself has become tainted and circumspect, that doesn't mean that it is impossible, or even unlikely, for there to be special terms used. It doesn't mean that there can't have been either larger organised, or in smaller pockets murder of non-partisan civilians. Possibly even jews for being jews.

When I read that the einsatzkommando or sonderkommando dug up bodies again, to grind their bones into tiny pieces as to destroy evidence, that idea seemed ludicrous to me, and it still does.

But the idea that there might be seemingly imprecise language depending on previous talks and agreements, that's not completely out of the window as well. I'm seeing if I can find some kind of scan of the document. Though because David Irving referred to it, I find it quite likely that it is authentic. I don't think trying to piece together individual documents is pointless. In fact, neither do you. Some documents you would accept as proof (if you believed them to be authentic). After all, you've made about 20 posts asking for a direct order from Hitler to exterminate jews.
Why would you be asking that if you didn't think a single document could prove this?

And we don't always get those clearcut answers. Sometimes we don't get proof, we just get evidence. Why wouldn't it make sense to try and get the best interpretation of the documents (among other sources of evidence)?

 

[Bonesjones]

I've said sufficiently what I think of Chugger and gas vans. As much as I think most of what we hear about holocaust is exaggerated, sufficiently so that the term holocaust itself has become tainted and circumspect, that doesn't mean that it is impossible, or even unlikely, for there to be special terms used. It doesn't mean that there can't have been either larger organised, or in smaller pockets murder of non-partisan civilians. Possibly even jews for being jews.

When I read that the einsatzkommando or sonderkommando dug up bodies again, to grind their bones into tiny pieces as to destroy evidence, that idea seemed ludicrous to me, and it still does.

But the idea that there might be seemingly imprecise language depending on previous talks and agreements, that's not completely out of the window as well. I'm seeing if I can find some kind of scan of the document. Though because David Irving referred to it, I find it quite likely that it is authentic. I don't think trying to piece together individual documents is pointless. In fact, neither do you. Some documents you would accept as proof (if you believed them to be authentic). After all, you've made about 20 posts asking for a direct order from Hitler to exterminate jews.
Why would you be asking that if you didn't think a single document could prove this?

And we don't always get those clearcut answers. Sometimes we don't get proof, we just get evidence. Why wouldn't it make sense to try and get the best interpretation of the documents (among other sources of evidence)?

The problem isn't using evidence to piece together a story. It's starting with a narrative and only searching out evidence to support that narrative.

If you say someone is speaking in code, then you not only have to find people talking in that code, you also need the corresponding physical evidence resulting from that. If "special treatment" is code for gassing, then you need to prove people were actually gassed. You can't just say it means something, say it definitely happened, then they also destroyed the evidence of those actions. That's a cop out at its most basic.

The reason I push for direct orders and physical evidence, is because if it actually existed than it would be paraded front and center. We know the allies did everything in their power to frame the Nazis. This means altering documents, using torture to get false confession, reinterpretation of facts to change their meaning, destruction of exonerating evidence.

See how often the Germans record keeping is used against them and never when it would exonerate them. Again and again records must exist and if they don't they destroyed them because they were so damning.

Remember that the Nazis were so terrible, when the Soviet lines pushed up to the concentration camps, when given the choice to stay or leave, most chose to leave with the Nazis.

 

[Lemmingwise]

If "special treatment" is code for gassing, then you need to prove people were actually gassed

Again, the statement that machinegun ammo is perfectly suited for special treatment, discredits the idea of gassing, it does not support it.

We know the allies did everything in their power to frame the Nazis.

This is actually pretty limited if you remove Soviets from the picture. Nuremberg depended for a great deal on soviet provided evidence. Similarly, the allied controlled territory (whether liberated like Netherlands, or occupied like west Germany) did allow forensic research at the supposed death camps. Which, it turned out, they weren't.

I agree that they went far; but if you think about it, they could have taken things as far as soviets did, with the building of new buildings as evidence and such.

 

[Chugger]

Again, the statement that machinegun ammo is perfectly suited for special treatment, discredits the idea of gassing, it does not support it.

I never said that "special treatment" meant gassing, just that (by Reinhard Heydrich's statements) the term was largely synonymous with extra judicial execution. Even a cursory look through the available relevent documents reveals this to be obvious

That's what happened to 100,000 unfit Jews from the ghetto of Litzmannstadt in the first half of 1942

after they were killed the bodies were re-exhumed and burned by a special commando which was subsequently deployed for similar duties in Russia

Don't take my word for it though

“The Jews buried in a little wood near Kulmhof”: Documenting Cremation at Chelmno

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

That is why the quarter kilometer long graves discovered in the forest don't contain bodies, but ash, ground up bone and industrial product consistent with body destruction

FTR, David Irving believes in gas vans and specifically the authenticity of the Just Memo

 

[Bonesjones]

I never said that "special treatment" meant gassing, just that (by Reinhard Heydrich's statements) the term was largely synonymous with extra judicial execution. Even a cursory look through the literature reveals this.

That's what happened to 100,000 unfit Jews from the ghetto of Litzmannstadt in the first half of 1942

after they were killed the bodies were later re-exhumed and burned by a special commando which was subsequently deployed for similar duties in Russia

Don't take my word for it though

“The Jews buried in a little wood near Kulmhof”: Documenting Cremation at Chelmno

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

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That is why the quarter kilometer long graves discovered in the forest don't contain bodies, but ash, ground up bone and industrial product consistent with body destruction

David Irving believes in gas vans and specifically the authenticity of the Just Memo FTR

Then why can't you prove it directly instead of taking someone's word for it?

You keep saying this person said that so it must be true. Why should we take anyone's word for anything?

You've also moved your goalpost again, instead of the Holocaust being the gassing of jews, now its just the killing. Convenient.

What is industrial product? That doesn't sound like a mass grave to me.

Your link starts with a lot of editorializing about what facts actually exist and how they aren't where people looked but elsewhere. Funny how they can't just shut people up with evidence. I stopped reading there because everything you post is meaningless posturing with zero factual basis behind it.

They say gas vans exist and yet, no proof, just speculation.

 

[Chugger]

They say gas vans exist and yet, no proof, just speculation.

It would have been trivial for a country like USSR to make a gas van according to rough specifications as described in documents like the Just Memo, then force some witnesses to say they'd seen or driven the vehicle

One might even be able to claim such a vehicle was a Soviet original (reports suggest they used gas vans as well). Therefore the kind of absolute proof you are demanding is unattainable. If you are skeptical enough about a given narrative, questions and uncertainties will always linger--

that is why it is best to closely scrutinize the available evidence like the documents and witness testimony I presented above, and compare it to the evidence for the alternate hypothesis (they were shot at Chelmno--or, as the Korherr report intimates, transported into Russia)

 

[Bonesjones]

It would have been trivial for a country like USSR to make a gas van according to rough specifications as described in documents like the Just Memo, then force some witnesses to say they'd seen or driven the vehicle

One might even be able to claim such a vehicle was a Soviet original (reports suggest they used gas vans as well). Therefore the kind of absolute proof you are demanding is unattainable. If you are skeptical enough about a given narrative, questions and uncertainties will always linger--

that is why it is best to closely scrutinize the available evidence like the documents and witness testimony I presented above, and compare it to the evidence for the alternate hypothesis (they were shot at Chelmno--or, as the Korherr report intimates, transported into Russia)

So you admit that gas vans didn't exist and they just transported them eastward as possible and let them loose? I just got Chugger to deny the holocaust. Thank you. Thread over.

 

[Lemmingwise]

So you admit that gas vans didn't exist and they just transported them eastward as possible and let them loose? I just got Chugger to deny the holocaust. Thank you. Thread over.

This is not a chugger thread and it's obvious he was speaking in hypotheticals.

 

[Bonesjones]

This is not a chugger thread and it's obvious he was speaking in hypotheticals.

This is definitely the chugger lolcow thread, and I doubt anyone else is taking up the mantle that the holocaust happened.

Was he? He just said the available evidence supports that gas vans didn't exist. That's holocaust denial.

 

[TheRetardKing]

There going to on a trip,
To a place called Auschwitz,
It is Shower Time,
Little Jew Time.

 

[Slap47]

You'd think if the H-man managed the logistics of a coordinated and entirely secret genocide, using code words, back channels, and sub-par physical and telecoms infrastructure. He'd have been better prepared for the logistical challenges of something as simple as a war. Or at the very least, we wouldn't have as many goddamned heebs in the world.

There is a strange irony to the holocaust. The Nazis failed to implement mass production with their war economy, but they managed to do it with their mass murder. The Germans insisted on artisanally made equipment and then sent those craftsmen and engineers off to war. Then they got surprised that the quality of their equipment turned to shit when it was made by unskilled slave labor in literal death camps. Its sorta funny in a perverse way.

The mass production element is generally what stumps most Holocaust deniers. They find statistics on how long it takes for a funeral home to respectfully burn a body entirely into ash and think thats how you have to burn a body. Then hype up modern furnaces as something amazing when we've basically been using the same temperatures for cremation for millennia. Mass production really changes everything. At the start of the war it took months to make a strategic bomber. That was fine tuned into a couple of days. Now do it with death.

Ironically, the camps were not even the most effective way to kill people and the Germans only built them to remedy their labor issues. The Rwandan genocide has a higher Kill/Day ratio and its literally just people with cheap Chinese machetes. Holocaust numbers should hardly be that hard to grasp. The camps only really were made because of Germany's labor crisis, and lack of soldiers willing (and able) to do the work required to commit genocide. The Nazis held a romantic view of labor (guilds, craftsmenship), a traditional view of women (Never work, 13 kids), and a paranoia of another Weimar uprising. The romantic view of guilds stopped them from using mass production, the traditional view of women stopped them from training women and using them for trades, and the paranoia of another Wiemar uprising made them maintain higher consumer spending well into the war when they should have otherwise been investing into the war economy when it mattered. Germany had shortages of military production the whole war, but at the end of it had an overwhelming amount of excess production they could not use due to a lack of oil. Its comical.

The Holocaust was known about during the war. It was just dismissed as propaganda because of the press's propaganda during ww1, or drowned out by the sheer amount of news. The Ukrainian famine was also known about at the time it was happening. People just found it hard to be true and other stuff was happening.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The Rwandan genocide has a higher Kill/Day ratio and its literally just people with cheap Chinese machetes.

When people go door to door to cut people up with machetes, you may get a high kill count, but you also get clear evidence.

Mass production element in regards to killing is easy; they would later get higher kill counts even than those claimed for WW II in China. It' s the mass destruction element that becomes hard. The extraordinary numbers for auschwitz for example, yet only 4 crematoriums, and never all 4 in simultaneous use. How exactly does the mass production element suddenly allow bodies to burn faster?

The Holocaust was known about during the war.

Never heard this claim before. What are you basing this on? Known by who? And how do you know?

 

[Chugger]

Mass production element in regards to killing is easy; they would later get higher kill counts even than those claimed for WW II in China. It' s the mass destruction element that becomes hard. The extraordinary numbers for auschwitz for example, yet only 4 crematoriums, and never all 4 in simultaneous use. How exactly does the mass production element suddenly allow bodies to burn faster?

I pointed this out before, but revisionists are correct that the crematoria at Auschwitz never met optimistic expectations (5000 bodies per day--Bischoff document)

outdoor cremation had no limits besides manpower and fuel demands, so was more frequently used. Luftwaffe took photos of outdoor cremation at Birkenau during Hungarian deportation

Never heard this claim before. What are you basing this on? Known by who? And how do you know?

I also pointed this out before. Publically these things were talked about but also internally, so there can be no accusation of 'atrocity propaganda' . Cavendish Bentinck , British intelligence, was aware of intercepts of German messages reporting mass shooting of children in Russia "On the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"

extermination camps were more secretive but by 1944 it was obvious to Churchill, speaking of Hungarian deportation "You wrote to me on 1 July about the German plans for the massacre of the Hungarian Jews . . . There is no doubt in my mind that we are in the presence of one of the greatest and most horrible crimes ever committed. It has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilized men in the name of a great state and one of the leading races of Europe."

 

[Chugger]

There is a strange irony to the holocaust. The Nazis failed to implement mass production with their war economy, but they managed to do it with their mass murder.

They did fully mobilize for war, but only after Stalingrad. By comparison, as I pointed out earlier, mass murder operation was small time. Negligible amount of labor and guards (perhaps 10,000 people working for a few years), total fuel costs equivalent to maybe .5% of German yearly production

It also should be pointed that body destruction wasn't the plan going in--they started doing this more in 1943 after events like Katyn and after the full gravity of what they had done dawned on them.

This is something that deserves mention, cuz most people don't realize it: Holocaust was maybe 3/4s done by the end of 1942. After that it was mostly cleanup.