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The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers
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Yeah he believes millions were gassed at the Reinhard camps, and much less at Auschwitz
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You have given two sources of evidence for this statement and neither have supported the idea that he believes millions were gassed. The first source was where he explicitly said the gassings at auschwitz were hugely exaggerated in popular perception and the second source he says explicitly that it can not be proven to have happened by gassing.
Somehow these two sources together paint a picture of him supporting the idea that millions must have been gassed in your warped mind.
I said:
And in the same video he gives numbers for the people coming into these "extermination centers", more than 2 million between 42 and 43
your mind is clearly warped sorry
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Cut him some slack, he believes that the German military was supplied with Thompson machine guns as standard equipment.
Bonesjones
kiwifarms.net
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how do you not know the culture of this site? dikd you literally just join this site just to defend the holocaust narrative?
I understand this site completely. It is about fostering unhealthy obsessions with other people for entertainment purposes /filling the blackened heart
sometimes I take boner off ignore just see how many obsessive repetitive "gotcha" posts he has made about me. it's almost every post i make lol
No I joined to talk to holocaust deniers cuz I (at times) enjoy the debate and find their views interesting. I don't care about reducing holocaust denial, a movement I judge will never be relevant, by .00001% which is the most I could hope for here
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@Chugger
There is a quote by Hitler, a relatively obscure one which I can't find right now, so I will paraphrase to the best of my memory "The war is not against jews, it is against communists. But jews are heavily involved with communism. If the jews don't want to be affiliated with communism, they need to cast out the communists and turn them over to us, and then we won't view them as a threat. However, the jews have never done this, so we must treat all jews as suspected communists".
So this gives some insight into the German mentality.
Is it fair to shoot 100 people because you found some partisan weapons in one man's house? Well, yes, because these 100 people were all crammed into a single house. If one man is sneaking out of the ghetto to meet with partisans, and storing weapons under the floorboards, when he shares a room with 20 other people, then how are they not to know what he is doing? They are all complicit.
Not that I blame the jews or think this is proof that jews are all evil communists at heart, from their perspective it is a matter of survival. The jews certainly thought they were being genocided, and were banding together accordingly.
There is a quote by Hitler, a relatively obscure one which I can't find right now, so I will paraphrase to the best of my memory "The war is not against jews, it is against communists. But jews are heavily involved with communism. If the jews don't want to be affiliated with communism, they need to cast out the communists and turn them over to us, and then we won't view them as a threat. However, the jews have never done this, so we must treat all jews as suspected communists".
So this gives some insight into the German mentality.
Is it fair to shoot 100 people because you found some partisan weapons in one man's house? Well, yes, because these 100 people were all crammed into a single house. If one man is sneaking out of the ghetto to meet with partisans, and storing weapons under the floorboards, when he shares a room with 20 other people, then how are they not to know what he is doing? They are all complicit.
Not that I blame the jews or think this is proof that jews are all evil communists at heart, from their perspective it is a matter of survival. The jews certainly thought they were being genocided, and were banding together accordingly.
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Jews are useful people. They work hard, invent things, start businesses. If anime fans had been gassed instead we wouldn’t have school shootings, trannies, or a massive child pornography market.
Hopefully the next lolcow dictator gasses the right group
Hopefully the next lolcow dictator gasses the right group
Rapechu, it's an interesting argument, so I'll accept your assumptions for now. Based on documents like Kube's letter and what we went over with the "resettlement" of the Jews of Wolhynien,
as well contingent on things like availability of the police groups (which were not everywhere at once, but concentrated in groups with a route to take)
we can conclude that ghettos were liquidated in a largely planned or pre determined manner, and I don't think there's a single ghetto they didn't hit. Once the ghetto was liquidated most inhabitants were summarily executed (eg as "bandit helpers") , with the only survivors being a portion taken aside for use as slave labor. But all this was fully justified, since the Nazis knew that in each and every ghetto would be many people with partisan sympathies or actively helping them. This was due to the ethnically based (could be cultural or genetic) anti-German / pro Bolshevik tendencies of Jewish people. Furthermore there was a massive war going on, so any kind of judicial process was unfeasible.
The non-working Polish/German/French/Dutch/Czech/Romanian Jews in their custody but not yet in Russian ghettos, as Jews also had anti-German tendencies so why even bother resettling them? Thus they were killed before they even got to the ghettos, which is why no evidence of real resettlement in Russia exists for mid-1942 and beyond, the greatest period of supposed emigration
What I have described above is genocide by the standard definition: "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group"
or "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such"
(justifiably, due to their ethnic anti-German tendencies)
Does this sound right?
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Would you consider this sufficient pretext to shoot women and/or children? Just curious. I don't think I know my own answer to this question, even.
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Their father/husband has killed a woman or child of my group. I mean the jews where the ones to write an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a nail for a nail. Of course to them the lives of 100,000 plus goys are not worth a single jewish finger nail. Now Goyim women and children is almost never justified.
Bonesjones
kiwifarms.net
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Chugger obsessively posts only here and refuses to answer simple questions yet I'm the troll using gotchas. It's impressive the level of projecting he's capable of. How do you get so delusional? How many times does he have to rewrite a post to avoid giving away how he really thinks?
So cope and seethe and dilate faggot
So cope and seethe and dilate faggot
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Woman absolutely can be partisans and often were, and even children can be as well. Children are always collateral damage in wars, but it seems like the Germans avoided shooting children wherever possible. Soviets gunned down entire families without any remorse, and I don't think the British were too worried about saving the children when they were bombing German residential districts. At least in places like Auschwitz, the Germans were trying to adopt out children of prisoners to save them from the horrible conditions. (This is also somehow held against them and often referred to as "kidnapping". Damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
German women (picture related) adopted literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of babies, saving them from being forced to live in disease-ridden internment camps. The massacred children in Prussia I don't think were given any such kind treatment by the soviets. Nor were the Ukrainian children or others who helped the Germans.
We have seen a few things:
1. That, unrelated to the consolidation of local jews, ghettoes grew in size anywhere from 2 to 10 times, this is pretty uniform across all eastern ghettoes. I have posted documents of jews being transported from west and central Europe to the east. This shows that the Germans were intending to settle the east with jews. It makes no sense to do this unless they were intending to put them closer to the front lines to use as economic support for the war. However, at some point, this proved to bite them in the ass as the jews proved to be more trouble for them than help.
2. Liquidations were not synonymous with massacre. Jews from liquidated ghettoes were often placed into camps or placed into other ghettoes. It's only when the ghettoes were resisting (which was almost all of them by the middle of the war) that they were met with violent liquidation.
3. The shootings happened in escalating waves, with warnings being given, and in German records, whenever a shooting is reported, or discussed between officers, it's always within the context of the war and partisan activity; and there is frequent talk of resettlement. If I am expected to believe that the Germans kept up a perfect facade, then that is a bit of a conspiracy theory from holocaust-believers, that the Germans had entire false communications going on, even in their higher levels of government, purely so that when they lost the war they would try to fool everyone? Hitler had a specific anti-defeatist mentality, and forbade everyone (government, officers, newspapers) from even implying that it was possible the war would be lost. He wouldn't be engaging in such baffling conspiratorial deceptions with the mindset that he was going to lose the war and all documents would be seized by enemies.
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- Sep 28, 2021
Also, one more tidbit of info, jewish children, particularly jewish children aged 0-5, were the demographic of jews most likely to survive the war.
Rapechu, a very simple issue as far as I see it is that by 1943, basically all ghettos on record in German territory had either been completely dissolved or reduced to a shadow of their former selves. If you have any evidence of ghettos persisting (as they did in Transnistria) I'd like to see it.
Therefore one can easily see that if the non-employable Jews were not being interned anywhere (there appears to be no evidence here) they were on the whole either dead or escaped and in hiding. German documents are mum about mass escapes of Jews, with a few exceptions like the Sobibor escape, which caused the Germans to send out police alerts across the entire General Government
Jews were also sent into the east for labor purposes.
In 1942 I haven't seen any evidence of Jews from the west being placed into ghettos. I should remind you that in 1942, 1.5 million mostly non-employable Jews were apparently transported from Poland into the "Russian East", far more than the earlier "real" resettlement
Kube's letter shows that the killings were scheduled, and furthermore the reason given was not violent resistance, but merely offering some form of nebulous assistance to partisans.
An interesting case study, which we've been through before is the "resettlement" of the Jews of Wolhynien. USHMM pdf conveniently lists all the ghettos in this region starting on page 1315
In May 1942 the population there was described as being 326k
In the summer "resettlement" of the entire region was planned out
This would seem an ideal test case for your theory that "Jews from liquidated ghettoes were often placed into camps or placed into other ghettoes" (where they ostensibly weren't killed?)
We immediately see mass killings start to take place
Yet in this same period SS Police are shown to be surprised by the "smooth running" of this operation
Only in November, after hundreds of thousands of Jews had been executed (Himmler's letter feature monthly breakdowns) was it observed that the Jews were more often defending themselves. Interestingly it seems during this period of greatest Jewish resistance, the resettlement terminology is still being used "The final resettlement"
eg the Japanese tested biological weapons and mass poisoning of water supply under the heading 'Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department'
I pointed out obvious examples of coded language to you in the previous thread, and here right above "The final resettlement".
Therefore one can easily see that if the non-employable Jews were not being interned anywhere (there appears to be no evidence here) they were on the whole either dead or escaped and in hiding. German documents are mum about mass escapes of Jews, with a few exceptions like the Sobibor escape, which caused the Germans to send out police alerts across the entire General Government
It is known that (mostly in 1941 and 1942) 100,000 or so Jews from Western and Central Europe were sent to eastern ghettos.
Jews were also sent into the east for labor purposes.
In 1942 I haven't seen any evidence of Jews from the west being placed into ghettos. I should remind you that in 1942, 1.5 million mostly non-employable Jews were apparently transported from Poland into the "Russian East", far more than the earlier "real" resettlement
This is contradicted by multiple documents.
Kube's letter shows that the killings were scheduled, and furthermore the reason given was not violent resistance, but merely offering some form of nebulous assistance to partisans.
An interesting case study, which we've been through before is the "resettlement" of the Jews of Wolhynien. USHMM pdf conveniently lists all the ghettos in this region starting on page 1315
In May 1942 the population there was described as being 326k
In the summer "resettlement" of the entire region was planned out
This would seem an ideal test case for your theory that "Jews from liquidated ghettoes were often placed into camps or placed into other ghettoes" (where they ostensibly weren't killed?)
We immediately see mass killings start to take place
Yet in this same period SS Police are shown to be surprised by the "smooth running" of this operation
Only in November, after hundreds of thousands of Jews had been executed (Himmler's letter feature monthly breakdowns) was it observed that the Jews were more often defending themselves. Interestingly it seems during this period of greatest Jewish resistance, the resettlement terminology is still being used "The final resettlement"
It's quite common throughout history and with nations across the world for euphemistic language to be used to describe unsavory activities. The euphemism has a dual purpose--to help conceal the nature of the activity from outside observers, and also to allow the perpetrators some extra distance from their actions.
eg the Japanese tested biological weapons and mass poisoning of water supply under the heading 'Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department'
I pointed out obvious examples of coded language to you in the previous thread, and here right above "The final resettlement".
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I remember this came up before when you posted this
Surviving the Holocaust: Socio-demographic Differences Among Amsterdam Jews - European Journal of Population
This study determined the victimisation rate among Amsterdam Jews and socio-demographic differences in surviving the Holocaust. After linking a registration list of over 77,000 Jewish inhabitants in 1941 to post-war lists of Jewish victims and survivors, the victimisation rate lies between 74.3...
Yes it seems around a quarter of children under age 10 survived, a slightly higher ratio than with other Jews, and guess what the article you posted provides a plausible explanation for this
Looking through the USHMM pdf I found evidence of Jews from a liquidated ghetto being transported elsewhere
speaking of the ANNOPOL ghetto in Wolhynien
They were shot there on June 25.
It seems at times the Germans did not have the requisite manpower to carry out these killings. Therefore Jews were temporarily concentrated in other places--temporarily being the key word.
I would ask @Rapechu if he can find evidence of a single ghetto or camp in all of German occupied Russia where "resettled Jews" may have been kept in substantial number without major liquidations into at least 1943 (as they were in Transnistria).
If you can't find even a simple example of this, again, why should anyone believe this happened?
I'm not trying to be mean or abusive, but it seems you are having difficulty with this apparent fact:
Instead, if there's no evidence for something, I think it's reasonable you shouldn't believe in it until evidence can be found.
speaking of the ANNOPOL ghetto in Wolhynien
They were shot there on June 25.
It seems at times the Germans did not have the requisite manpower to carry out these killings. Therefore Jews were temporarily concentrated in other places--temporarily being the key word.
I would ask @Rapechu if he can find evidence of a single ghetto or camp in all of German occupied Russia where "resettled Jews" may have been kept in substantial number without major liquidations into at least 1943 (as they were in Transnistria).
If you can't find even a simple example of this, again, why should anyone believe this happened?
I'm not trying to be mean or abusive, but it seems you are having difficulty with this apparent fact:
thousands of ghettos where all we know is virtually all of their non employable Jews were shot or transferred to other ghettos where most of them were then shot
zero ghettos where such Jews weren't shot in large numbers and maintained their populations or grew into 1943
If you are saying that you cannot find any evidence here due to mainstream history being sanctified and purged of all aberrations, this nevertheless is not very good evidence these "aberrations" existed in the first place. Imagine if there was no evidence whatsoever for mass genocide of Jews and I claimed this was because the anti-Semitic Soviet Government had motive to purge all files and silence all witnesses.Instead, if there's no evidence for something, I think it's reasonable you shouldn't believe in it until evidence can be found.
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- Sep 28, 2021
Transnistria is a part of the story though, because Germans DID transfer jews from their custody into the Romanians' custody.
The forgotten Holocaust in Transnistria | DW | 27.01.2014
Most people think of Auschwitz when the Holocaust is mentioned, but lesser known is the genocide against Jews in Transnistria, who faced death marches, extermination and starvation. DW's Birgit Görtz visited the region.
“There are indications that in 1943 Transnistria began to serve as a kind of a ‘reservation’ for deportation not only of Rumanian Jews, but of Jews from other Nazi-dominated countries. On February 28, 1943, the London press reported that thousands of Jews who had been transported from their homes in Germany, Austria, Slovakia and the Czech Protectorate to the ‘model concentration camp’ at the fortress of Theresin [i.e. Theresienstadt] in the Protectorate, were being sent to Transnistria.[83] Eight months later, reports from Bucharest stated that freight trains crowded with Jews deported from France, Holland and Belgium ‘continue to reach the city of Jassy en route to Transnistria,’ where they ‘are isolated in camps together with Jews from Bessarabia and Bukovina.’[84] Jews from Germany and Bulgaria, as well as 700 Polish Jews, were reported among the deportees in Mogilev.[85]
When the jews weren't causing the Germans trouble, they were consolidated into larger ghettoes or put into internment camps
"In Sokoły, in late December 1942 or early January 1943,
German authorities transferred another approximately 650
Jews to “safe haven” in the Białystok ghetto.12 Most transfer-
ees were deported during the first liquidation Aktion in Feb-
ruary 1943. About 50 to 60 others were expelled during the fi-
nal liquidation Aktion in August. A handful of the latter,
deported to a number of concentration camps, survived the
war.13"
Though these larger, more consolidated ghettoes, inevitably had some sort of underground movement which resulted in later mass-shootings closing them down as well, so this ultimately didn't have any positive effect.
These uprisings were planned, not spontaneous:
"Most of the approximately 80 Jewish fugitives sought shel-
ter in the ghetto in Jasionówka. About 20 Knyszyn Jews sub-
sequently survived the Jasionówka ghetto liquidation on Janu-
ary 24–25, 1943, by jumping either from the trucks deporting
them to the train station or from the train taking them to the
extermination camp.15 Others stayed outside of ghettos. Sni-
egiewicz lived in Białystok on false identity papers, purchas-
ing arms and explosive materials for the Jewish underground
for the planned ghetto uprising."
"Following the arrival of many newcomers in Pło nsk, the
Self-Help Committee for Relief of the Poor was established.
Its organizer and president, Abraham Lewi, was able to ob-
tain subsidies from various Jewish aid organizations, including
the AJDC (American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee),
CENTOS (Central Organization for Orphan Care), and TOZ
(Society for the Protection of the Health of the Jewish Popu-
lation in Poland). Representatives from particular towns dis-
tributed donated goods and cash among the expellees. The
committee’s success earned it a good reputation."
Germans allowed charity operations to exist, which provided aid for jews and jewish orphans. Also, wherever Germans transferred jews to forced labor camps following a liquidation, they sent the entire family.
If the Germans shot the majority of non-workers, we would expect to see more adult male jewish survivors than female or child. (Old people are more likely to die either way, so I'm not really looking at them). However, in fact what we see in every statistic is that Jewish women had equal or higher survival rates than jewish men, and children had much higher survival rates than adults. This proves that the Germans were not specifically targetting women and children, but the opposite, that they were more likely to be spared.
100,000 is only what Kues could directly prove, within the limited scope of his paper. Contextually, just browsing holocaust encyclopedia entries every single ghetto had massively expanded in size by 1942. This can't be accounted for as being due to consolidation of rural areas, as these consolidations are noted separately, and are actually very, very tiny, as jews were not typically farmers, they lived together in towns and communities. I posted an example of a small ghetto which started out as 80 people, had 20 more people consolidated from surrounding villages, then ballooned to well over 600 people by 1942.
Why would the Germans send even 100,000 people to the east, instead of guns or soldiers, unless they intended them to have some permanent presence as economic support for the war?
The liquidations were planned. As we saw, when they were not met with resistance, they were non-violent resettlements, the people were deported to camps and other ghettoes. Though later on the ghettoes they were moved to usually became to resist, and thus were violently liquidated.
Many were placed into camps though, it is only alleged that they did not survive because they were gassed, when no evidence has been found for gas chambers, and it is more likely that they died of malnutrition and disease.
These are two different people speaking, their comments are unrelated. If there are only isolated incidents, then this indicates that things are running smoothly. In the more Polish areas it seems like there actually was relatively little partisan activity, and so there were also far fewer mass-shootings.
Too often, you post quotes, and when I look into them, they are badly translated or completely out of context. Here he is talking about sending jews to camps, with the ultimate goal being total internment. In this particular region, I believe that jews were consolidated towards Poland, into camps and extremely large ghettoes like the Warsaw Ghetto, which survived quite late into the war and had hundreds of thousands of jewish occupants, until their uprisings.
This is quite a stupid hypothesis.I remember this came up before when you posted this
Surviving the Holocaust: Socio-demographic Differences Among Amsterdam Jews - European Journal of Population
This study determined the victimisation rate among Amsterdam Jews and socio-demographic differences in surviving the Holocaust. After linking a registration list of over 77,000 Jewish inhabitants in 1941 to post-war lists of Jewish victims and survivors, the victimisation rate lies between 74.3...link.springer.com
View attachment 2804724
Yes it seems around a quarter of children under age 10 survived, a slightly higher ratio than with other Jews, and guess what the article you posted provides a plausible explanation for this
View attachment 2804727
1. If the parents are dead, how does the baby survive? Can a baby survive for 3 years without any caregivers?
2. If the baby's food source (mother) is dead, how does the baby survive?
3. Am I expected to believe you can hide a baby in a dark, uncomfortable, briefcase, and have them tossed around without the baby immediately crying very loudly?
4. The Germans confiscated jewish property, wouldn't they have found the baby hiding mysteriously silently inside the briefcase?
A more likely hypothesis is that the Germans avoided shooting women and children except in extreme cases, and charitable organizations and benevolent locals provided for the wellbeing of orphans and widows to the best of their ability.
I can find literally hundreds of example of peaceful resettlements, of jews being transported from one ghetto to another.
In Slavuta, the town's population was censused as having a jewish population of 2,026 in 1945. So it seems like your encyclopedia is telling some crafty stories and omitting important details.
There are major camps in Germany and Poland where millions were held, and Germans also transferred hundreds of thousands into Romanian custody in Transnistria. There were also many, many forced labor camps, where jews were transferred to along with their families, and the jews sent to these typically survived the war. There are also the "remnant ghettoes" which I think you are deliberately omitting from the narrative. Jews who were helpful to the Germans were transferred to "remnant ghettoes" (with their families), and the people sent to these often survived until the end of the war.
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