The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Lemmingwise]

A fun theory is that German officers used it as an intimidation tactic.

"a fun theory"

 

[byuu]

That particular propaganda myth was already around during World War One.
Same old tricks.

And both were carefully studied by historians and eventually deboonked.
Funny how that works.

"a fun theory"

I can picture this as a fun movie scene.
Afterwards the soldier calmly walks to a sink and washes his hand with the soap then throws it to the horrified soldier and walks out.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I can picture this as a fun movie scene.
Afterwards the soldier calmly walks to a sink and washes his hand with the soap then throws it to the horrified soldier and walks out

Reminds me of the first time someone in my class asked my social studies teacher if there were any documents to prove the official story of mass gassing (I wouldn't really do so until a decade later). His answer was "I don't need documents to imagine what it was like".

Those words always struck me as odd. Why would anyone rely on their imagination of what happened in establishing facts?

But then I thought about each time the holocaust was a subject at school (usually from better informed teachers than this one). Each class, with each teacher involved some exercise where people were asked to imagine what it was like. Was anyone else's school/holocaust education experience like that?

When the holes in the story started to accumulate, I revisited that earlier observation. It was a kind of inception I realised. By asking people to imagine an event, they fill it with their own ideas of what seems likely/reasonable. Because it is self-populated, it is in a manner that seems very truthful, subjectively, to everyone who engages in that exercise.

After all there have been persuasion studies that show exactly that: ask someone to defend a position in a debate and their own attitudes have shifted after compared to before, in the position they're arguing.

When I accounted for that, it finally made sense why, when questioned the veracity, relied on what he had imagined what it was like. On a personal, subjective level that was the strongest reason to believe it.

 

[byuu]

Each class, with each teacher involved some exercise where people were asked to imagine what it was like. Was anyone else's school/holocaust education experience like that?

I don't remember much of anything from the holocaust education in school - that was like two weeks 20 years ago.
But "Imagine what it was like" is pretty common for historical situation.
"Imagine what it was like besieged for 13 days in the Alamo...". Try to make history come alive and all that jazz.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I don't remember much of anything from the holocaust education in school - that was like two weeks 20 years ago.
But "Imagine what it was like" is pretty common for historical situation.
"Imagine what it was like besieged for 13 days in the Alamo...". Try to make history come alive and all that jazz.

Yet it happened for none of the other subjects. Certainly didn't get anything comparable to a 5 minute visualization exercise to imagine what it's like to die in a shower gaschamber.

 

[byuu]

Yet it happened for none of the other subjects. Certainly didn't get anything comparable to a 5 minute visualization exercise to imagine what it's like to die in a shower gaschamber.

Schools sometimes do trips where they visit an actual gas chamber. Doesn't require that much imagination.
I remember my sister telling me about her trip: all the other girls started crying inside it and she and the guide just gave them a "bitch please" look.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

Is it really a stretch to say that an organization or a government which believed Jews ran and controlled everything, were an enemy of their state that would undermine and destroy them, actively remove what they believed to be an existential threat? If you think a group of people are an existential threat in a life or death battle, why wouldn’t you kill them? If it’s you, your family, and nation and you truly believed it was us or them, why wouldn’t you do everything to defeat them? Even unsavory things? Would Hitler really be like ‘ok, these guys are out to get us, we’ll just not do anything because we’re not the real racists.’

That being said, history often struggles to get the exact numbers down. It makes rough estimates and can be wrong. Doesn’t really matter IMO how many exactly died, they were killed systematically and so were many non-Jews. It’s a bit annoying how the latter get ignored all the time. Countless lives were lost because of the third reichs belligerent behavior. Not just Jews but other German citizens of all stripes. I heard stories that some were even Sieg Heiling as they were gunned down by the SS…

Still it’s dumb to crack down on people who challenge it, people should be permitted to question historical events, otherwise it creates greater resentment and stifles innovation. Estimates are rarely accurate and as time goes on we should have a better idea of what the numbers are. It’s not surprising though that they would make it a crime and treat dissent like it’s heresy. It’s almost like Germany has a precedence of cracking down on politic dissent..

Stifling dissent is a slippery slope and it shouldn’t happen in a democratic nation. At least the socialists, National and Bolshevik, never pretended to support free speech. It can and has easily led into other ideas being banned as well, which is why people can’t challenge climate change, social justice, etc. Its a dangerous precedent to set and to continue. The party line can be wrong and it should be allowed to be questioned.

Also I feel like the socialists of the Bolshevik persuasion don’t get enough flak for what they did. Not just to Jews but also to their own people. They also committed similar planned atrocities as the Nazis and through sheer incompetence killed off even more of their people than the Germans ever did intentionally. Yet upper and middle class kids with college degrees have no problem waving the hammer and sickle around, even around immigrants that lived under its oppression. Which to many is akin to the Swatsika.

 

[byuu]

Also I feel like the socialists of the Bolshevik persuasion don’t get enough flak for what they did. Not just to Jews but also to their own people. They also committed similar planned atrocities as the Nazis and through sheer incompetence killed off even more of their people than the Germans eve did intentionally. Yet upper and middle class kids with college degrees have no problem waving the hammer and sickle around, especially minorities that lived under its oppression.

Holodomor was clearly Western war propaganda.
No one can show me the "ten million" corpses that Stalin supposedly killed.

 

[WeWuzFinns]

If holocaust was fake and Hitler wasn't a gas bender, does that mean that Avatar: The Last Airbender wasn't real?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Holodomor was clearly Western war propaganda.
No one can show me the "ten million" corpses that Stalin supposedly killed.

When's the last time any organisation or country was forced to pay money for the hodomor?

Who's the last person jailed for denying it?

 

[byuu]

When's the last time any organisation or country was forced to pay money for the hodomor?

Who's the last person jailed for denying it?

Dunno, if anyone got in jail for it. But Holodomor denial can get you prison time in Ukraine.
And the Ukranians would certainly like reparations for it.

 

[Chugger]

Considering the illegality and persecution of people that "downplayed the holocaust" in Germany the fact that people didnt speak up about it is really inconsequential. They recently jailed that 72 year old women again over facebook comments.

So the fact that people don't speak up for decades is not surprising at all. Especially if they lived with all the secret police and pogroms of soviet union or ddr.

Speak up about what exactly? Saying you saw a large resettlement camp for Jews in 43, or even that you had been interned in one in Russia, would not by itself disprove the Holocaust. A portion could have been kept alive there, in camp similar to Theresienstadt, for propaganda or post-war purposes.

As for your earlier accusation that I don't hold equal scrutiny against resettlement, I haven't made any specific claim about resettlement, nor have I seen any unreasonable ones.

My grandfather was stuck in Japan after the war. Released from the concentration camp, but not brought back to his own island. No possessions. He ended up befriending a captain and being a stowaway on his ship. His travel wasn't recorded.

You acknowledged earlier that you had little trust for truthfulness of soviet documentation, so why is it suddenly ironclad?

I'm speaking of German documents concerning resettlement of millions of Jews in camps into 1943. I would expect hundreds of thousands of wartime German documents detailing this (a similar amount to what exists for Jews being ghettoized), and even assuming a campaign of mass document destruction by the allies, at least a few would get through the censors. I'm of the firm conviction that with any cover up this large there are always going to be some slip ups

But there's nothing, at least nothing has been found yet, so why believe?

*In the case of gassing operations and camps where Jews were killed upon arrival, there are by approximate mental count about 10 German government documents that explicitly detail this (revisionists say these are fabricated but who knows for sure?)

 

[Sneed-and-feed-2077]

It never happened/ Thread. Why do people still insist on Kvetching about it? Must to get the money from the goyim. Also to all the JIDF shills fuck off.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Speak up about what exactly?

Nigga, it was your words that they somehow "kept quiet".

any cover up this large there are always going to be some slip ups

Why? There werent any for the manhattan project. And even what slips up might have been gets easily squashed with it being illegal to bring up.

 

[Chugger]

Is it really a stretch to say that an organization or a government which believed Jews ran and controlled everything, were an enemy of their state that would undermine and destroy them, actively remove what they believed to be an existential threat? If you think a group of people are an existential threat in a life or death battle, why wouldn’t you kill them? If it’s you, your family, and nation and you truly believed it was us or them, why wouldn’t you do everything to defeat them? Even unsavory things? Would Hitler really be like ‘ok, these guys are out to get us, we’ll just not do anything because we’re not the real racists.’

When Nazis confessed to these things (without the threat of jail or execution) they almost never showed remorse

Himmler's posen speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRO04q_lQi4
"A page of glory never mentioned, and never to be mentioned"

Eichmann's pre-capture Argentina confession to Nazi sympathizers

Hitler's last will and testament:

I have also left no doubt that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those international money and finance conspirators, then that race, Jewry, which is the real guilty party in this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I also made it clear that this time, not only would millions of children of European Aryan races starve, not only would millions of grown men meet their death, and not only would millions of women and children be burned or bombed to death in the cities, but that the real culprit would atone for his guilt, even if by more humane means.

 

[Lemmingwise]

But he's saying most remained alive... how is that a confession of killing 6 out of 10 million?

 

[Chugger]

Nigga, it was your words that they somehow "kept quiet".

You said that people would be afraid to speak up because then they would be jailed or something for 'questioning the holocaust'. I said that speaking up about a resettlement camp in Russia would not be questioning the holocaust. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Why? There werent any for the manhattan project. And even what slips up might have been gets easily squashed with it being illegal to bring up.

There's plenty of surviving documentation for the Manhattan project, I don't understand your point here.

But he's saying most remained alive... how is that a confession of killing 6 out of 10 million?

In his confessions to Sassen, Eichmann affirms every element of the holocaust story, 'Reinhardt death camps', Auschwitz, Gas vans, indiscriminate mass shootings in the east--he just gives a much lower estimation of the death totals, somewhere around 3 million I think

If you're interested, check out the book 'Eichmann before Jerusalem", which details these conversations (which exist as both transcriptions and in recorded form)

One passage from that book that stood out to me

 

[Bonesjones]

So which confessions existed without threat? Since there was evidence of torture on most of the people at Nuremberg. Also the fact Mossad brought in Eichman is another strike.

 

[Chugger]

So which confessions existed without threat? Since there was evidence of torture on most of the people at Nuremberg. Also the fact Mossad brought in Eichman is another strike.

In the case of Eichmann's and Himmler's explicit confessions, there was no threat. Himmler's Posen speech is from 1943. Eichmann's is from 1957, 3 years before his capture.

Eichmann also wrote a "memoir" around this time, which voices almost these exact sentiments. These documents were handed over to David Irving who authenticated them and they were later published in English as 'The Eichmann Tapes', which is a misleading title lol

 

[Lemmingwise]

There's plenty of surviving documentation for the Manhattan project, I don't understand your point here

There was no motive for keeping it secret once the first atom bomb had been dropped. Then the whole world knew. But before that, hundredthousand people working on it, most not aware of what they were working on, and effectively kept quiet.

It's pretty easy to keep things quiet, far easier than people think. Especially if you are willing to make one or two examples of people if things threaten to be undermined.

In his confessions to Sassen, Eichmann affirms every element of the holocaust story, 'Reinhardt death camps', Auschwitz, Gas vans, indiscriminate mass shootings in the east--he just gives a much lower estimation of the death totals, somewhere around 3 million I think

If you're interested, check out the book 'Eichmann before Jerusalem", which details these conversations (which exist as both transcriptions and in recorded form)

One passage from that book that stood out to me

Eichmann also wrote a "memoir" around this time, which voices almost these exact sentiments

I am probably going to take a look at these things, but the fact that you just portrayed "nazis confessing to these things" and then what they actually confess to being at odds with your own position (5.3 million is what you said iirc), shows me that I can't trust you to portray things accurately.

I am also going to have to establish what language it was written in by whom, and what intermediaries there were, unless it's from an opposing side book that you're quoting, where at least I can be sure there isn't tampering in your affirmative position (so I can trust the affirmative things in them).