The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

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History Speaks said:
These documents really do not require much "interpretation". Frank speaking of sentencing 1.2 million Polish Jews to death by hunger is obviously genocidal. Himmler saying that we had to "kill these people who wanted to kill us", and that the Jewish women and children had to be kiilled too is obviously genocidal. Ley saying that we will not rest until the last Jew in Europe is "dead" (gestorben) is obviously genocidal.

The only "interpretation" going on is on the side of deniers and neo-nazis, who are ironically employing the kind of postmodernist methods associated with the pseudo-academic Left, to obscure the meaning of plainly genocidal statements by the Nazis.
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In fact they do require interpretation. They're German language texts from 70 to 80 years ago.

And of course here we see you trying to turn the holocaust into a starvation event now then telling us what these men say on your own behalf.



Chugger said:
I can add 'tentative plans to use the exhaust from the cremas to provide hot water for hygienic showers' to the list, but out of curiosity, why do you think this is relevant?
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It's a sad goodbye to the dummy showers lie. It couldn't be more relevant.


Thanks to Thomas Dalton I know that Goebbels viewed liquidation as being different than evacuation, so perhaps they should argue Goebbels was suffering from micro strokes when he wrote these entries
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As usual peddlers are literally unable to simply post the actual conclusions of the author they want to use against you.
 
mrolonzo said:
While skewed interpretations of senior nazi speeches and diary entries are not hard evidence of either orders or plans to kill or of deaths. Nor are allegations made based on population numbers.
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On what fucking planet are senior nazi speeches, correspondence, and diary entries NOT hard evidence that the Holocaust was real?! Don't mind the man behind the curtain, I'm sure the Holocaust was just some cultural misunderstanding.

ETA: if I gave you the train schedules of trains coming to auschwitz full of people and leaving it empty, in what candyland narrative is THAT not hard evidence?
 
Stan said:
On what fucking planet are senior nazi speeches, correspondence, and diary entries NOT hard evidence that the Holocaust was real?!

ETA: if I gave you the train schedules of trains coming to auschwitz full of people and leaving it empty, in what candyland narrative is THAT not hard evidence?
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1. On every planet in the universe.

2. Do you have complete train records?
 
Stan said:
On what fucking planet are senior nazi speeches, correspondence, and diary entries NOT hard evidence that the Holocaust was real?!
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This is what I mean when I say these guys reject history as an academic discipline. Contemporaneous documents are the crown jewel of the historiographical method, and have been since Leopold von Ranke. To just glibly dismiss documents "because CSI Las Vegas" amounts to a rejection of history as a discipline.
 
History Speaks said:
This is what I mean when I say these guys reject history as an academic discipline. Contemporaneous documents are the crown jewel of the historiographical method, and have been since Leopold von Ranke. To just glibly dismiss documents "because CSI" is a rejection of history as a discipline.
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Which is completely amateur history. Textual and contextual analysis is central to actual history. One does not simply say " he said X therefore this meant Y."
 
mrolonzo said:
Which is completely amateur history. Textual and contextual analysis is central to actual history. One does not simply say " he said X therefore this meant Y."
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The context of these documents, which refer in plain language to the mass murder of Jews, is that Jews are "disappearing" by the millions in the Nazi camp system, and numerous eyewitnesses are saying they are being exterminated.

What you are doing is not "textual and contextual analysis," postmodernist spaghettification of plain language, with the goal of proving that Santa Claus is real and loves you, among other childish and absurd fantasies.
 
mrolonzo said:
It's a sad goodbye to the dummy showers lie. It couldn't be more relevant.
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how so? did they say they were installing showers in the corpse cellar?
mrolonzo said:
As usual peddlers are literally unable to simply post the actual conclusions of the author they want to use against you.
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I'll post the entire passage again since I included Dalton's commentary. His conclusion is that Goebbels distinguishes between liquidation and evacuation

1659908670545.png
 
History Speaks said:
The context of these documents, which refer in plain language to the mass murder of Jews, is that Jews are "disappearing" by the millions in the Nazi camp system, and numerous eyewitnesses are saying they are being exterminated.

What you are doing is not "textual and contextual analysis," postmodernist spaghettification of plain language, with the goal of proving that Santa Claus is real and loves you, among other childish and absurd fantasies.
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Is this the speeches now? Or your special quotation?

Eye witnesses? Your eye witnesses like Filip Muller?

What im doing is actual textual analysis, or revisionists do, this is superior to your silly propositions. Which is why you cannot ever give quotes of authors in full, as revisionists do.
 
Chugger said:
how so? did they say they were installing showers in the corpse cellar?

I'll post the entire passage again since I included Dalton's commentary. His conclusion is that Goebbels distinguishes between liquidation and evacuation

View attachment 3574593
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What actually did they say? Go ahead. I literally gave you the entire section from Mattogno.


You just posted a snippet of Dalton. Why not post the conclusion?

Take your time guys. Im sleepy. I know this is the hard part for you.
 
History Speaks said:
A kindergarten student can do what you do, i.e. copy and pasting dozens of pages from books. Possibly even a non-human (Chimpanzee) could.

I do not see this as a serious mode of engagement. Why would I not just read Mattogno rather than reading your bloated copypastas?
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It's a very serious mode of engagement. The work on the holocaust has mostly already been done by actual historians, both orthodox and revisionist. Neither you nor I are the same as these guys. So therefore it's a waste of everyone's time and effort to recreate arguments and opinions that has went before be that orthodox or revisionist.

My copy pastas are not bloated. They are sections of studies that pertain exactly to subjects in discussion.

The truth is, I am doing this discussion in a more practical, honest and forthright fashion than you.
 
mrolonzo said:
What actually did they say? Go ahead. I literally gave you the entire section from Mattogno.
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Plans to put showers in the undressing room (not the corpse/special/gassing cellar) of Crema 3

and a tentative project to create hot water supply for about 100 showers, of which there is no indication would be all housed in the Crema

1659909768601.png


This is not evidence the installed shower heads in the corpse/special/gassing cellar were ever intended to be used as such, but even if it was, this would be a refutation of a relatively unimportant part of the holocaust story, because people could clearly be killed there , working showers or no

mrolonzo said:
You just posted a snippet of Dalton. Why not post the conclusion?
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1659910417488.png


ok. a literal reading of his diary as translated by Dalton suggests the Germans "killed the Jews like rats"

1659910750504.png
 
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Chugger said:
Plans to put showers in the undressing room (not the corpse/special/gassing cellar) of Crema 3

and a tentative project to create hot water supply for about 100 showers, of which there is no indication would be all housed in the Crema

View attachment 3574662

This is not evidence the installed shower heads in the corpse/special/gassing cellar were ever intended to be used as such, but even if it was, this would be a refutation of a relatively unimportant part of the holocaust story, because people could clearly be killed there , working showers or no





View attachment 3574687

ok. a literal reading of his diary as translated by Dalton suggests the Germans "killed the Jews like rats"

View attachment 3574697
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"Hey these guys intend to wipe us out, we should do the same" isn't the own you think it is.
 
mrolonzo said:
1. On every planet in the universe.

2. Do you have complete train records?
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you're delusional if you think that Hitler and his inner circle's own words don't demonstrate the reality of the Holocaust. I've read testimony from the train managers before, I'll look for it again, but you might not like the source since using collections from holocaust museums is absolutley haram and forbidden here. Do you realize just how dogmatic and purposefully unmoved you sound when you say Hitler's own words don't count?
History Speaks said:
This is what I mean when I say these guys reject history as an academic discipline. Contemporaneous documents are the crown jewel of the historiographical method, and have been since Leopold von Ranke. To just glibly dismiss documents "because CSI Las Vegas" amounts to a rejection of history as a discipline.
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mrolonzo said:
It's a very serious mode of engagement. The work on the holocaust has mostly already been done by actual historians, both orthodox and revisionist. Neither you nor I are the same as these guys. So therefore it's a waste of everyone's time and effort to recreate arguments and opinions that has went before be that orthodox or revisionist.

My copy pastas are not bloated. They are sections of studies that pertain exactly to subjects in discussion.

The truth is, I am doing this discussion in a more practical, honest and forthright fashion than you.
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nah, it's lazy as can be. You're too chicken to look at the sources without someone like Mattogno to comfort you and keep the dream alive, because if you did even you could discern the truth of the Shoah. You don't even read them, you just ctrl+f to what you want and browse for the right, predetermined talking point. It doesn't save any time or effort to just parrot crap you found on CODOH here; it just illustrates what a waste of time it is to talk to you.
 
Stan said:
On what fucking planet are senior nazi speeches, correspondence, and diary entries NOT hard evidence that the Holocaust was real?! Don't mind the man behind the curtain, I'm sure the Holocaust was just some cultural misunderstanding.

ETA: if I gave you the train schedules of trains coming to auschwitz full of people and leaving it empty, in what candyland narrative is THAT not hard evidence?
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Hard evidence would be a body and a murder weapon, not some one saying something being loosely interpreted as "I'm going to kill you"
History Speaks said:
This is what I mean when I say these guys reject history as an academic discipline. Contemporaneous documents are the crown jewel of the historiographical method, and have been since Leopold von Ranke. To just glibly dismiss documents "because CSI Las Vegas" amounts to a rejection of history as a discipline.
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You reject scientific reality, no one cares what you think. You are literally subhuman intelligence.
History Speaks said:
The context of these documents, which refer in plain language to the mass murder of Jews, is that Jews are "disappearing" by the millions in the Nazi camp system, and numerous eyewitnesses are saying they are being exterminated.

What you are doing is not "textual and contextual analysis," postmodernist spaghettification of plain language, with the goal of proving that Santa Claus is real and loves you, among other childish and absurd fantasies.
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Funny how plain language is always code words and the most unfavorable interpretation possible and never directly said.
History Speaks said:
A kindergarten student can do what you do, i.e. copy and pasting dozens of pages from books. Possibly even a non-human (Chimpanzee) could.

I do not see this as a serious mode of engagement. Why would I not just read Mattogno rather than reading your bloated copypastas?
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Kids have a better grasp of science than you do. As you've proven repeately.
Stan said:
you're delusional if you think that Hitler and his inner circle's own words don't demonstrate the reality of the Holocaust. I've read testimony from the train managers before, I'll look for it again, but you might not like the source since using collections from holocaust museums is absolutley haram and forbidden here. Do you realize just how dogmatic and purposefully unmoved you sound when you say Hitler's own words don't count?
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Hitlers own words as translated and recontextualized by his nemesis. Which is what you fail to mention.
Stan said:
nah, it's lazy as can be. You're too chicken to look at the sources without someone like Mattogno to comfort you and keep the dream alive, because if you did even you could discern the truth of the Shoah. You don't even read them, you just ctrl+f to what you want and browse for the right, predetermined talking point. It doesn't save any time or effort to just parrot crap you found on CODOH here; it just illustrates what a waste of time it is to talk to you.
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How come you've never point by point rebutted me, but have endless time to complain about my tone? Almost like you are dodging something.
 
Bonesjones said:
"Hey these guys intend to wipe us out, we should do the same" isn't the own you think it is.
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by 1945 Germany was wiped out. Even by 43 after Kursk, they were in a disadvantageous position and they knew it. Hundreds of thousands were being killed in raids, and millions more were dead on the front. Mainstream revisionist perspective is that this war was entirely defensive, not a brazen land grab at all, and the Jews were responsible from beginning to end, this was their design.

the quote also says, to be more precise, that by 1945 the Nazis had "already thoroughly attended" to killing them like rats.

Stan said:
It doesn't save any time or effort to just parrot crap you found on CODOH here; it just illustrates what a waste of time it is to talk to you.
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Yeah I'm close to exiting the convo with him. I'm just hanging around out of curiosity about what he does with the list

But at this point I think it will be nothing, because he thinks the positive evidence for the revisionist position can only be grasped after reading pages and pages and pages of pilpul err context. It is so complex even he cannot even begin to articulate why this evidence is meaningful
 
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