The Final Fantasy Thread

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The Demon Pimp of Razgriz


See I understand the logic is flawed, but I loved the idea of a FF cast that absolutely hates each other. And the central conflict being their confusion and uncertainty over what they are supposed to do. I was able to handwave all the logistical problems in my head as "they cant do the convenient thing because of their programing"

I understood why they came back at the end. It was entirely wishful thinking for the most part, but they wanted to break the cycle of random people being marked for death/stasis crystallization and I think they were hoping he was lying in some way. At the end of the day humanity was marked for slow death anyway, with everybody on the surface of the planet already dead or crystal.


ShiftyBoi

I thought the cast of 13 were all pretty interesting. Snow gets a lot of flack, but in my mind he is a jock version of sora from kingdom hearts. Who doesn't realize how stupid and unrealistic his well meaning plans are and constantly gets burned.

13.3 is still worth checking out if you're interested, there's a neat majora mask day system and im told the gameplay is pretty good. The main conflict is less about the god at the end and more about the fact that everyone is immortal (yet killable and unable to reproduce) and society has stagnated because of this. So lighting has to convince people to give them their souls so they can be reborn. A lot of people are in pretty bad shape and it is interesting to see where all the characters from the series ended up.

I liked how weird the ending is and it leaves the door open for lightening to show up in other stuff like KH 4. They even went to the trouble of making a book epilogue for everyone that was pretty neat to read.
 
Oh boy, I get to sperg about XIII!

Etro in 13-2 had really interesting lore. The problem was they were trying to pull an MCU and have her show up in FF13 Versus. That didn't really go anywhere (for now)

So what you've got left is a character that everybody talks about, but has no real physical presence and apparently dies offscreen. She did actually show up in FF agito/Type O but even less people talk about that because of how much that was botched translation and presentation wise. So much so, you can be forgiven for not realizing who she is.
That's supposed to be Etro?? Lolwut

Honestly, as much as XIII bungled how they handled the lore, I didn't mind too much since I was able to follow the basic premise and plot. The fact they went "Here read all this shit if you want to understand everything" is hilarious though. I guarantee you no one did.

I love the characters myself and always had a particular soft spot for Snow. He does get a lot of hate for being the loud heroic jock, much like Tidus, but I enjoyed him and was sad to see how crestfallen he becomes in Lightning Returns. Though I'll admit him constantly going on about Serah did get stale. I guess I have a high tolerance for characters who are considered annoying, since Hope and Vanille never bothered me either. Yes Hope is angsty but he's a teenager who witnessed his mom die in front of him, for fuck's sake. As for Vanille, she's a sweetheart, but also more than her bubbly persona lets on. The moment where she tells Sazh to kill her and then snaps back at him about what he wants her to do since she "can't live or die" is by far one of her best. I really like how their relationship unfolds.

Glad it's agreed that Caius is the standout villain of the XIII trilogy, he's genuinely well-written. I thought Barthandelus was okay but Orphan was super forgettable and paper-thin. I sadly never finished Lightning Returns (because of the utterly bullshit fight against Caius) so I can't weigh in on Bhunivelze, but I believe what I hear about him being yet another bland evil god.
 
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The Fair Lady


Reading deep into the lore it's either Etro's avatar flesh puppet, or the flesh puppet of a sister godess. Yeah it's more then a little convoluted, but Etro at the very least is involved in repeatedly bringing back everyone from the dead when the loop resets.
 
So Type-0 is connected to XIII? I know it was part of that specific sub series but I didn’t think it shared a canon with xiii.
 
So same gods, different worlds?
That is correct yes. The god who gets the most mention and impact across all the games featured is Etro as she controls death.

i'll break it down by family tree. (most of this info comes from lore and supplemental stuff, a lot the details are lost in the English's version.) Keep in mind most of the early background is told as ancient mythology, not hard facts.

Technically there were originally only two "gods" Mwynn and her kid Bhunivelze. Bhunivelze kills his mom and takes over the living realm but gets insanely paranoid and thinks she put a curse on the living (aka they die naturally) and he'll lose everything he worked for.

So he decides to kill her again and take over the afterlife. To do this, he created one son and two daughters. Pulse, Etro and Lindzei and tasks them with finding the door to the afterlife. Then he takes a long nap.

Pulse and Lindzei are loyal and work at his beck in call as a sort of yin and yang ,creating the Fal'cie (angels/robots) to oversee things in the world of 13. They then use the world of Type O as a sort of testing ground for figuring out a way to get the gate to the world of the dead open.

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Etro is a complicated case. Bhunivelze accidently created her in the image of Mwynn and this pissed him off. As a result she killed herself in shame and apparently her remains were used by Lindzei to create humanity. When she died, she went to the afterlife where Mwynn was. Mwynn was already being destroyed by chaos, (the corrosive force, not a specific entity) but before she gets destroyed she gives Etro the task of bringing balance to the worlds.

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A running theme of these gods is that none of them understand humanity, and don't feel emotions the same way we do. So they are often capable of good and evil deeds in pursuit of their goals, purpose and directives.

At present, Etro's the only god unaccounted for, she was going to have a major role in FF15 before getting cut out. Bhunivelze is dead after 13-3 and presumably Pulse and Lindzei are dead as well. As they were summoned and turned into a combined weapon for the final battle of lightening returns. (I wouldn't be surprised if they came back) The only issue is I don't know if Type-O takes place before or after 13-3.



Nomura's going to bring Etro back. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when. I'll go over the L'cie mechanics in the next post if your interested, but sora is somehow one of them if KH remind is to be believed.

 
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This is a problem with Final Fantasy in general. Every game has to end with a generic doomsday villain as the main threat, and saving the world from that generic doomsday villain is basically the plot.

Sometimes this works because the villain is memorable and/or charismatic and has a strong presence felt through out the story (Kefka, Sephiroth, Ardyn, Exdeath). Many times, it just doesn't work. Final Fantasy 13 was a disaster in storytelling, shown by its uninteresting villains who work with convoluted nonsensical plans to frankly stupid ends. Xande was such a non-presence in Final Fantasy III that hardly anyone even remembers him, largely being replaced by Cloud of Darkness, who is even more generic as it isn't even mentioned till the very end of the game and final battle, and is given next to no motivation aside from being pure evil. Nobody remembers that Zemus was the main villain of Final Fantasy IV; everybody probably thinks its Golbez. Ultimecia was as generic as one could get, with no real motivation or character established, no backstory given, and wasn't even seen till the end of her game. Final Fantasy IX barely avoids this by virtue of having Kuja upstage Garland towards the end. Final Fantasy X's villains are so uninspiring, that Dissidia made Jecht the villain representative for the game.

The only mainline Final Fantasy game that attempted to not do the whole generic doomsday villain schtick was Final Fantasy XII.
While Ultimecia isn't the most fleshed out villain in the series by a long shot, she actually has a reasonably understandable and even sympathetic motivation; at least, if your brain didn't melt down when trying to comprehend circular causality and other effects of time travel. She found out that Squall was going to kill her, and she wants to go on living instead of being murdered by an adolescent jerk in a fur coat. You know, like almost anybody else would.

The problem was that due to her enemy being in a completely different time period, she had to use time travel to try to get rid of him, and everything she did ironically only ended up laying the path to her ruin. Her use of time travel ended up creating in the past the organization that killed sorceresses like herself. Her Ultimately her vaunted time compression led her destined murderer directly to her doorstep with a bunch of his pissed-off friends in tow.

So in that respect, Ultimecia is actually kind of a tragic character. (Even more so when you realize that as a sorceress she is 1) feared and hated by normal people and 2) totally infertile due to the sorceress power taking up residence in her uterus.) After she is mortally wounded, she has to live on in unspeakable agony long enough to pass on her sorceress powers to Edea in the distant past, closing the time loop that leads to her death, and she lives just long enough in this utterly excruciating state to finally realize that she made a series of terrible mistakes and she was the cause of her own death all along. So her entire life was marked by persecution, loneliness, childlessness, mortal terror at the prospect of her own predestined murder, epic amounts of work that proved far worse than useless, and finally a death both physically and mentally agonizing virtually beyond all comprehension where she finally realized that her whole life was wasted and she had no one to blame for it but herself.
 
Ok time for more 13 sperging


So In my prior post I established who the major deity's are. Now lets clear up what exactly the L'cie's deal is.


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Basically they are slaves.

They get excess to magic, summons and possible immortality but the price is they have to do whatever the gods and their Fal'cie angels want them to do. Otherwise they get turned into mindless zombie monsters. And even if they do everything right, their reward is to get frozen in crystal carbonite for a long ass time (potentially thousands of years) until they wake or get woken up.



In theory the system is supposed to be mutually beneficial. The L'cie finishes the job like a hitman, gets put in a crystal dream sleep then gets pulled out whenever needed to do the next job. This way they get a technical kind of immortality as nothing short of a summon can break the crystal. Perhaps even rejuvenation depending on what happens exactly to their body's. (Etro and Bhunivelze gave a lot of perks to lightening.)


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In practice they are puppets to be called upon forgotten and disposed of as needed.



The mechanics are different between Type O and 13 but I can break it down simply enough.
Type O is a controlled environment (a sort of science experiment) that has indirect observation from all three gods. 13 is a neglected dominion controlled by Fal'cie (angels) that went insane.

The overall goal here for both worlds is to somehow manifest and open Etro's gate (the afterlife) via a controlled culling/empowering of human souls. In Type O the process was done a couple million times with no success and eventually they figure out they cant get it open and cut their losses in the good ending. In 13 somebody screwed up. There's supposed to be a balanced war going on between the People on the planet of pulse and the people in the sky city of cocoon. But almost everybody on the planet is dead (it's not known how or why, although the planet is something of a 40k death world). So there's no way to keep the meat grinder going. It's either too early for a check up or the planet has been completely abandoned by the gods. With nobody around to flip the kill switch. Society grows fat and happy while the Fal'cie stew and try to figure out how to do something they were not designed for.


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Left: Cocoon/ Lindzei. Right: pulse



So in the universe of 13 when you get branded by either side of the Fal'cie team you get access to magic, which nobody else can use, (until later in the franchise for some reason) summons if you can tame them, some physical buffs and free will to use the power as you see fit. The problem is your on a timer to fulfill your focus and if it ticks down without being achieved you get turned into a cyber zombie. I suspect the Fal'cie enjoy fucking with people or they simply cant convey very well what they want to do. In any case it's a rather rough life to live. cocoon L'cie at least have the benefit of being honored as champions by the city and having easier focuses to fulfill. (I dont believe the cocoon Fal'cie are even capable of making a focus for their branded to blow up the city.)

If your unlucky enough to get branded by pulse you're hunted down like an animal and shot. Nobody's going to be lucky enough to fulfil a focus unless they were born a couple thousand years in the past. Otherwise the only thing they can do is blow up cacoon and or die before becoming a zombie. The only reason our hero's manage to get branded in the first place is becouse the caccoon fal'ce let one of the pulse ones onto the city and just let it lie around until some someone stumbles into it.


In Type O Magic is a common thing, but to compensate the L'cie are walking WMD's of immense destructive power. The price is they barely have souls as a result. After they are granted power by their respective nation's crystal (the Fal'ce have a more hands off, observatory approach and are not nearly as numerous) they gradually lose all emotion and self initiative . They are little more then chess pieces on a board for all their destructive power. The one benifit is as long as they remain loyal to their nations they dont have to worry about turning into monsters. Turning into crystal is doable but not encouraged as the end goal, as it feels more like a failsafe if they die.

When you get right down to it it's a rigged game of chicken where nobody wins. Unless you hook up with Etro.

Etro has all the benefits and seemingly none of the drawbacks. To the point where she's the only one who is able and willing to freeze and get rid of the markings entirely. (Yeah it wasn't power of friendship that made everything better at the end of 13 it was Etro saving everybody's ass.) Etro actually tries to give a shit about humanity... Emphasis on try.

Unfortunately instead of simply enchasing people in crystal, the end result of using her powers is usually death when the lifeforce is drained. Her attempts at kindness also tend to have a nasty way of backfiring. When she gives her power to a kid who wants to predict the future and save people it ends up ruining her life and trapping her in an endless loop of death and reincarnation. Giving immortality to Caius to watch over her, likewise drives him to the brink of insanity. Finally she screws herself and the timeline over by using her power to save the main characters in 13. Etro for all her good intentions cant see past her hand and doesn't truly understand people.

So yeah, when you get past the terminology and mechanics, its actually pretty interesting in how intentionally screwed up it is. Shame we didn't get to see how messed up Etro would have been in versus.


So that leaves us with one last little mystery. What the hell is sora from Kingdom hearts doing in crystal?

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This was from the secret final fight in the KH3 DLC. Unless you can fight dark souls blindfolded you're not going to beat a noctis looking mofo on the first try. When sora gets his ass kicked he turns into a popsicle which implies quite a bit....

I for one am excited to see the death god overlords in a disney game.
 

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>FF stories get increasingly convoluted because they have to justify the dumb shit Nomura insists on
At some point there were definitely a bunch of Japanese execs in suits sitting around a table nodding like "so wait...we give this guy creative control and people keep buying one more game hoping that the story finally makes sense?"

That's the only reason I can see why he keeps getting more power.
 
Oh for the love of Christ. My interest in KH fell off a cliff after finishing 3, so I knew Nomura was trying to resurrect the original Versus XIII through Kingdom Hearts, but I didn’t realise he was going so hard on it.
Fuck yeah. He did say in an interview he was surprised how much people actually cared for sora, so It's my belief he's going to clear things up with 4, sprinkle some seeds and then go nuts.

>FF stories get increasingly convoluted because they have to justify the dumb shit Nomura insists on

Tbh they shouldn’t bother
Nah, he may be the creative director but he's not the writer. He didnt write or direct dirge, or make that blizball bomb beheading book. The FF13 series for all it's flaws mostly just had character designs from him and maybe some uncredited ideas. At the end of the day he's got ideas, story conception and knows how he wants certain things to begin and end. Personally, I blame everybody's favorite twitter hamster writer Nojima (cute little buggers) for making the pacing feel so weird in a lot of his works.

To get a good example of Nomura's writing, 358 days is one of the few that has him doing most of it. That's one of the best ones.

Now I'll attribute all the memes of Origin to him because that was based.



There was even a brief moment where they made fun of darkness memes.


At some point there were definitely a bunch of Japanese execs in suits sitting around a table nodding like "so wait...we give this guy creative control and people keep buying one more game hoping that the story finally makes sense?"

That's the only reason I can see why he keeps getting more power.
He's the only one besides yoko taro that has ballsy and interesting ideas. Everytime I hear his name assoicated with anything my ears perk up becouse I know we're gonna have a fun time.
 
Nah, he may be the creative director but he's not the writer.
That’s why I said the writing has to work backwards and shouldn’t really bother because it’s just making a rod for its own back!
At some point there were definitely a bunch of Japanese execs in suits sitting around a table nodding like "so wait...we give this guy creative control and people keep buying one more game hoping that the story finally makes sense?"

That's the only reason I can see why he keeps getting more power.
That is true.
 
For anyone that wants the actual tl;dr of Nomura's crystal fetish fuckfest its:

-The actual gods are autistic, their children are autistic retards, and THEIR children are braindead slave owners. Also Normura's belt fetish finally rotted his brain so all he can think of is how to rez the dead plot via disney ESG magycks.

There's a reason squeenix is dying and it's that. And if ff16/ff14 post-endwalker is any indication, the corruption is slowly spreading to yoshi-p as well.
 
That’s why I said the writing has to work backwards and shouldn’t really bother because it’s just making a rod for its own back!
I legit dont think his ideas are bad, just the pacing and presentation sometimes. The most recent KH thing he did Dark Road was legit fantastic from a plot perspective.

It was a KH school shooting prequel. Unironically contained some of the best usage of the disney IP in the entire franchise.

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And even his worst projects have a unique level of charm.
-The actual gods are autistic, their children are autistic retards, and THEIR children are braindead slave owners.
In retrospect this is true. But the most autistic fuckers in the entire franchise have to be the Type O kids. (aside from the actual two story protagonists in the middle.)

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Worst English acting in the series ive ever heard, combined with above average autism about basic shit. (Apparently they got A list actors in the jap sub though)

Normura's belt fetish finally rotted his brain so all he can think of is how to rez the dead plot via disney ESG magycks.
???

There's a reason squeenix is dying and it's that. And if ff16/ff14 post-endwalker is any indication, the corruption is slowly spreading to yoshi-p as well.

I do think he's overrated. Most of the best parts of FF14 plotwise can be traced back to Natsuko Ishikawa who did endwalker and shadowbringers. (stormblood too surprisingly.)

16 feels like a completely different game hastily repurposed into an early ps5 exclusive. To be fair, Yoshi-p was simply the producer and not the director.
 
After FF7R, I think that Nomura is more of a gameplay-first guy than a lot of people give him credit for. He has a good eye for combat (7R's combat system sounds like a weird unworkable hybrid on paper, but works well in execution with only a few complaints) and usually understands the importance of having a good variety of enemies and bosses. But I think his general philosophy is "you've got a fun combat system and enemies, so why worry about the plot right now?" so you get weird pacing like Disney worlds stopping the plot in KH or the train graveyard in 7R that kills the story's pacing, but gameplay-wise are fine. But the plots are so over the top crazy (and also usually have very likeable characters, just look at Jack Garland, who should be the most generic guy ever but you can't help but like the guy) that they're the first thing you think of when you think of his games.
 
I've always put a lot of value in the game's story/world, probably even more than gameplay, so I've never liked Nomura. I had some hopes for 16 after hearing he wasn't involved, and that the development team were big fans of Yasumi Matsuno, creator/writer of Ogre Battle, FF Tactics, Vagrant Story, and FF12 (all of which are some of my favorite games). But then 16 turned out to just be a pretty standard hack n slash game that (in my opinion) tried a little too hard to be "le dark fantasy epic," and now Nomura's probably back in charge.
God, what I would give for Matsuno to make games again. Still pissed we never got that Vagrant Story sequel.
 
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