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Tbh since 6 is being set in Hammerfell I think I'd actually prefer them to really lock in and do something interesting with the Yokudan pantheon. One of the reasons Morrowind was so interesting was because of how different Dunmer view things like the aedra/daedra compared to men, it'd be a shame to have a game set in a place known for having its own unique thing going on and then not take advantage of it. That'd be like setting a game in Black Marsh and then just completely ignoring the Hist.
A lot of the gods are reminiscent of other existing deities though, so it wouldn't surprise me if they roped them in since "describing the same guy but with such wildly different language you can't tell" is one of TES' big favorites.
Tbh since 6 is being set in Hammerfell I think I'd actually prefer them to really lock in and do something interesting with the Yokudan Crown pantheon. One of the reasons Morrowind was so interesting was because of how different Dunmer view things like the aedra/daedra compared to men, it'd be a shame to have a game set in a place known for having its own unique worldview and then not take advantage of it. That'd be like setting a game in Black Marsh and then just completely ignoring the Hist.
They will cuck the lore again because Bethesda is adverse to anything weird and creative, nords are supposed to not only worship the divines but also some daedras like malacath, in a perfect world they would address nord being sissified and worshipping shitty imperial gods instead of the based and redpilled og nord ones and there would be quests that inmersed you in this old god worship they had like tribunal or skaal quests do in MW, maybe even factions like morrowind that either support imperial goals or nord goals or even aldmeri goals since they are the new player now. However as much as it is fun to theorize what could have been or what it can be, is never going to happen, a lot of cut content and lore/designs decisions ever since oblivion was to dumb down the world to make it more digestible to the goycattle, iirc some devs said they used the imperial patheon in skyrim because people were already familiar with them since oblivion and not any deep reason beyond that.
By using their cubs as weapons. Swing them by their tail as a flail. Throw them into marks as a distraction during pickpocketing. Intentionally starve them to get more welfare to spend on moon sugar. Beat them black and blue to fake hate crimes.
To be honest, I'd rather they continue to ignore Jyg. My interpretation of the daedric princes is that they're supposed to be similar to the Chaos Gods from W40k, and like how GSW floated the idea of the Emperor becoming a kinda-sorta Chaos God of Order before ditching it, having a Prince of Order is trying to mesh two opposing ideas.
Did Skyrim even have any weird moments with any amount of teeth at all even? At most i can think of Astrid being burnt alive and Serana maybe implying her vamprisim ceremony involved super rape becase Molag Baal, but most of its shit was pretty tame for fantasy standards, iirc
Did Skyrim even have any weird moments with any amount of teeth at all even? At most i can think of Astrid being burnt alive and Serana maybe implying her vamprisim ceremony involved super rape becase Molag Baal, but most of its shit was pretty tame for fantasy standards, iirc
The only thing i remember like that in vanilla skyrim is that one lighthouse with the family being devoured by the murder pillbugs and then you fight a giant one with the half eaten remains of one of the family members.
I still remember it clear as day, walking to it expecting some lame ass NPC's without anything interesting and being surprised at how well executed everything in the dungeon was, from the bug sounds to the set dressing to the giant bug monster lair, is a shame that the game never does anything like this again. It was this mission and a random dead caravan near falkreath that i theorized they would make a DLC centered around entirely on the falmer, alas they are just pale goblins in the bin of missed oportunities together with the reachmen.
They will cuck the lore again because Bethesda is adverse to anything weird and creative, nords are supposed to not only worship the divines but also some daedras like malacath, in a perfect world they would address nord being sissified and worshipping shitty imperial gods instead of the based and redpilled og nord ones and there would be quests that inmersed you in this old god worship they had like tribunal or skaal quests do in MW, maybe even factions like morrowind that either support imperial goals or nord goals or even aldmeri goals since they are the new player now. However as much as it is fun to theorize what could have been or what it can be, is never going to happen, a lot of cut content and lore/designs decisions ever since oblivion was to dumb down the world to make it more digestible to the goycattle, iirc some devs said they used the imperial patheon in skyrim because people were already familiar with them since oblivion and not any deep reason beyond that.
Considering the Imperial occupation and the fact that even Ulfric is an Altmer asset, I always saw it as Nordic history and culture having been completely obliterated by the Thalmor/Empire to force them to assimilate. It might not be dev intended, but I think it explains a lot without feeling like too much of a cope. Similar things have happened IRL like with indians (feather) and the inuit where children were legally required to only be taught english and everything from clothing to professions to historical documents were outlawed and destroyed until most of them knew nothing about their own culture except what The Powers That Be deemed benign. The Thalmor has made worshipping Talos (a codified god in the imperial pantheon) a punishable offense -- you think they'd let anyone even remember that Ysgramor the Elf Genocider even exists if they had the choice?
I feel like that's kind of the whole point with the Skall. The only reason they still have their histories and traditions is because they told everyone else to fuck off and live isolated in the mountains.
Did Skyrim even have any weird moments with any amount of teeth at all even? At most i can think of Astrid being burnt alive and Serana maybe implying her vamprisim ceremony involved super rape becase Molag Baal, but most of its shit was pretty tame for fantasy standards, iirc
I guess it depends on what you consider bite-y. There's the cannibal cult feeding people human meat without them knowing it in markarth and the whole "ulfric being a POW who was tortured into a false confession by the Thalmor and purposefully radicalized specifically to psyop the stormcloaks into existance" thing which maybe isn't dark but is definitely far more based than I was expecting the first time I played. Babette from the dark brotherhood is also implied to use her appearance to lure in pedophiles to kill and eat them if I'm remembering correctly.
Similar things have happened IRL like with indians (feather) and the inuit where children were legally required to only be taught english and everything from clothing to professions to historical documents were outlawed and destroyed until most of them knew nothing about their own culture except what The Powers That Be deemed benign.
That would make sense if Skyrim was being occupied in a far more aggressive manner than Morrowind wich it wasnt, Skyrim has been loyal to the empire for years and the outlaw happened 26 years ago wich is basically nothing for TES setting, the problem is that the games never adresses any of it, skyrim has no mention of any of the original worship or culture nor cares, the only time it does is with the old guy with the helgen kid and turns out that was one of the oldest missions to be included probably around the time the main focus of the game was the civil war until they decided to keyjangle the dragons, speaking of, the dragon cult (something they pulled out of their ass for skyrim only) has more of a presence and characterization than any of the old nord pantheon and lore, hell is not just the gods, even historical figures like shalidor get mentioned like twice and handwaved away in the same dialogue. The rest is just filling the titanic gaps left by bethesda with fanfic like a darksouls lore video.
I can see why this game is so heavily modded, every time you think of anything dumb about it or inconsistencies you think "damn i could actually add this in the game" truly the eternal potential man.
Considering the Imperial occupation and the fact that even Ulfric is an Altmer asset, I always saw it as Nordic history and culture having been completely obliterated by the Thalmor/Empire to force them to assimilate. It might not be dev intended, but I think it explains a lot without feeling like too much of a cope. Similar things have happened IRL like with indians (feather) and the inuit where children were legally required to only be taught english and everything from clothing to professions to historical documents were outlawed and destroyed until most of them knew nothing about their own culture except what The Powers That Be deemed benign. The Thalmor has made worshipping Talos (a codified god in the imperial pantheon) a punishable offense -- you think they'd let anyone even remember that Ysgramor the Elf Genocider even exists if they had the choice?
one thing i noticed is that stormcloak aligned places will have female warriors but empire aligned places will always be males with a few unique female characters here and there as difference.
which if you think about how putting women in combat positions fucks up your ability to replenish combatants... works well for the thalmor to keep the nords weakened, similar thing to the NCR and legion in new vegas.
I feel like that's kind of the whole point with the Skall. The only reason they still have their histories and traditions is because they told everyone else to fuck off and live isolated in the mountains.
one thing i noticed is that stormcloak aligned places will have female warriors but empire aligned places will always be males with a few unique female characters here and there as difference.
The empire can also afford to mostly employ men versus the stormcloaks who are kind of just accepting whoever is still alive if the fact they let a non-nord DB join and form a temporary alliance with the reachmen is any indication. Which checks out to me tbh. Stormcloaks need bodies but they're not really interested in promoting any of the women who join, but when a woman is admitted into the imperial forces she's given the same opportunities as her male compatriots.
Skyrim has been loyal to the empire for years and the outlaw happened 26 years ago wich is basically nothing for TES setting, the problem is that the games never adresses any of it
Honestly the timescale in TES is so fucked up in general that I figured all that stuff happened in the past and we were just playing in a post-occupation Skyrim. Like, to clarify I do agree it's not a substitute for poor worldbuilding and that it's definitely mental fanfic. I don't really think anything actually shown in-game reaches the quality or intrigue of Kirkbride's writings which is an absolute shame. But I'll admit I enjoy that kind of autistic lore theorizing, so at least for me personally it doesn't really effect my enjoyment.
My brain sees anything with messy inconsistent lore and treats it like one of those feeder toys that spits dopamine treats out if I can somehow fit it all together. If Skyrim exists as it is, and we have no reason to believe the things we see didn't happen the way we saw, then I can't really control that there are now multiple accounts of the same thing that are completely different. I've never really liked the idea of de-canonizing works or disavowing entries in a series just because I don't like them, so at that point the obvious question becomes, "then how can they both be true?" and I get to come up with an answer I find satisfying or reasonable.
I'm not really trying to justify the writing with things the devs obviously didn't intend, but it's fun to engage with the thing I like. TES does conflicting accounts of events on purpose all the time anyways so it feels pretty on-brand to apply that to stuff like skin-color-changing nords and argonians all having latin names in arena and stuff like that.
I hope random NPCs talk about the overwhelming stench of Khajiit food and how you can smell one from a hundred yards away because it comes out in their sweat.
That would make sense if Skyrim was being occupied in a far more aggressive manner than Morrowind wich it wasnt, Skyrim has been loyal to the empire for years and the outlaw happened 26 years ago wich is basically nothing for TES setting, the problem is that the games never adresses any of it, skyrim has no mention of any of the original worship or culture nor cares, the only time it does is with the old guy with the helgen kid and turns out that was one of the oldest missions to be included probably around the time the main focus of the game was the civil war until they decided to keyjangle the dragons, speaking of, the dragon cult (something they pulled out of their ass for skyrim only) has more of a presence and characterization than any of the old nord pantheon and lore, hell is not just the gods, even historical figures like shalidor get mentioned like twice and handwaved away in the same dialogue. The rest is just filling the titanic gaps left by bethesda with fanfic like a darksouls lore video.
I can see why this game is so heavily modded, every time you think of anything dumb about it or inconsistencies you think "damn i could actually add this in the game" truly the eternal potential man.
Martin's sacrifice at the end of Oblivion possibly contributed in proving the Imperial pantheon was the correct religion with missionaries taking advantage of the post Oblivion crisis devastation for conversions.
The Oblivion crisis was a plan orchestrated by Sheogorath and Meruhnes to cuck the other daedras, Dagon got to destroy the septim dinasty and enact change and Sheogorath doesnt need to take his meds anymore after someone helped him to separate him from Jyggalag.
I deeply appreciate the amount of worldbuilding that is just dedicated to people creating increasingly convoluted schemes to fuck whoever they have increasingly petty beef with. Altmer have spent basically the entirety of history trying to un-make all of reality because they're upset that the aedra told them to go outside and play with the other kids at the playground.
Martin's sacrifice at the end of Oblivion possibly contributed in proving the Imperial pantheon was the correct religion with missionaries taking advantage of the post Oblivion crisis devastation for conversions.
I always thought it would've been cool if the fall of Talos worship had been organic as a result of the Oblivion Crisis. Tibe's own descendant mantled Akatosh, a god inherited from the Elven pantheon, instead of him. That probably mindfucked a lot of Talos devotees in Cyrodil back to the Eight who they had worshipped since the First Empire, long before the Septims. This paves the way for the Mede dynasty to ban the worship of Talos in a move to gain legitimacy by turning Tiber Septim back to a mortal warlord (maybe with just a little Elven poking). The Nords would naturally resist this because as it turns out, the Imperial cult was only ever adopted in Skyrim over the past 200 years because of Talos as a proxy for Shor reborn.
I deeply appreciate the amount of worldbuilding that is just dedicated to people creating increasingly convoluted schemes to fuck whoever they have increasingly petty beef with. Altmer have spent basically the entirety of history trying to un-make all of reality because they're upset that the aedra told them to go outside and play with the other kids at the playground.
I agree to a point, but eventually they have to put out and pay it off or quit. Like, how long have they been blue balling us with the Tower situation, including in ESO? 30 years?
I was feeling schizophrenic so I trawled UESP, read some of the in-game books and have a few thoughts/theories.
When the Middle Dawn was triggered by the Alessian Order (or that radical sect within it), the objective of the cult was to cleanse Akatosh of his "elvish taint"—something that doesn't make much sense given the Imperial Pantheon* has an exact time and date of creation and a parralel "true" god they're representing—and I always wondered if the cataclysm that resulted from that was the result of the cult effectively creating a new god. The god which came from that was not the same Akatosh/Auri-El prior. This created a pure Akatosh who possibly exists alongside the pre-existing "Akatosh," which was already a human-friendly re-naming/unification of the pre-existing Auri-El to syncretise with pre-existing Nedic/Nordic pantheons, right? This is assuming the original Akatosh didn't die in the process, being split in two essentially.
To sum up what I'm saying succinctly: did the Middle Dawn create a second Akatosh? You can't kill a god (what a fool you are), and the cult's aims ought to be impossible, but they still did something that plunged time and reality into chaos, which seems like a totally plausible outcome of creating a second God of Time. Or, assuming the "idea" of Akatosh was a fiction up until this point due to Akatosh being Auri-El, the cult quite possibly created a time god.
Due to the shenanigans Dragonbreaks create, it kind of retcons something as always having been and exists in spite of contradiction, creating and fixing its own paradoxes, which is why the Middle Dawn lasted so long since it would have to encompass and repair everything in all of Tamriel, whereas the Warp in the West lasted a few days and had to resolve every ending of TES: Daggerfall happening simultaneously.
The Akatosh who assisted humanity against the Ayleids and Mehrunes Dagon is the purified, human-centric version of Akatosh created during the Middle Dawn. Considering prior to the overthrow of the Ayleids nothing was really being done about them from the Aedra, it would feel out of character for an Elvish god (Auri-El) to help mankind, right? These two halves of the same deity, I believe, are in conflict ala Sheogorath and Jyggalag. Alduin is basically the corrupted mer-excrement of Akatosh, hence Alduin's purpose of destroying the world having the possible by-product of freeing the Aedra confined within it.
*Lalatia Varian, to me, was a zealot massively jumping the gun in assuming that you met aspects of Zenithar and Mara**. Aside from their rewards being shit, which you wouldn't expect given their relationship to divinity, she also calls Wulf's coin—who is almost most definitely an avatar of Tiber Septim/Talos if not Tiber Septim/Talos himself—a "portent of doom" when it was given to you just prior to you facing and stopping Dagoth-Ur and is also the only item capable of giving you a new power. Wulf explicitly tells you what it is when he gives it to you, there's no need for interpretation.
**These are the most "fake" (in the sense they're using a provably artificial name in lieu of their real one) and obvious stand-ins for a real God. Just as Kynareth is for Kyne, Though there is some schizophrenia here too.
Mara = Dibella = Kyne = Kynareth = St Alessia are all the same person/god.
Stendarr = Shor = Shezarr = Lorkhan = Jhunal/Julianos*** = Talos =/= Tiber Septim****
***Yes, I think it's entirely possible that the trickster-God is pretending to be other deities, even if it means half the 9 Divines are just Lorkhan. It also lends legitimacy to Allesian cult who were monotheists who wanted sole worship of Akatosh, which makes their decision to essentially ruin their potential monotheism by creating more gods ironic. One rather tenuous connection between Shor
****I think the The Arcturian Heresy is true—the primary source of Tiber Septim's origin comes from the 1st Pocket Guide to the Empire, written 2 years after Tiber Septim ascended to the throne. I compare this to Roman historians writing favourable accounts of the newly ascended emperor. When joined with some of the actual Tiber Septim's actions it kind of runs counter to the characterisation of Shezarr/Lorkhan and other aspects. So in a sense the Thalmor are correct in the view that Tiber Septim***** isn't divine, but they're wrong to dismiss Talos, who I think essentially became "real".
*****Aedra/Daedra and other divine/semi-divine beings can possess a physical form but they're primarily spiritual entities but can physically manifest in Nirn under the right conditions, I think Lorkhan (and his many disguises) have the most capability to interact with Nirn entirely as a consequence of his heart and blood (ebony, supposedly) being spread all over Nirn, effectively giving him a semi-permanent presence in reality. Akatosh was able to interact with Nirn (defeating Mehrunes Dagon TESIV) once his actual blood****** contained within the amulet of kings was exposed to the open air after Martin smashed it. Apologies in advance.
******In the Annotated Anuad, the Aedra came into being from the mixing of Anu and Padomey's blood, with Nir giving birth to creation.
The first ones were brothers: Anu and Padomay. They came into the Void, and Time began.
As Anu and Padomay wandered the Void, the interplay of Light and Darkness created Nir. Both Anu and Padomay were amazed and delighted with her appearance, but she loved Anu, and Padomay retreated from them in bitterness.
Nir became pregnant, but before she gave birth, Padomay returned, professing his love for Nir. She told him that she loved only Anu, and Padomay beat her in rage. Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time. Nir gave birth to Creation, but died from her injuries soon after. Anu, grieving, hid himself in the sun and slept.
Meanwhile, life sprang up on the twelve worlds of creation and flourished. After many ages, Padomay was able to return to Time. He saw Creation and hated it. He swung his sword, shattering the twelve worlds in their alignment. Anu awoke, and fought Padomay again. The long and furious battle ended with Anu the victor. He cast aside the body of his brother, who he believed was dead, and attempted to save Creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn, the world of Tamriel. As he was doing so, Padomay struck him through the chest with one last blow. Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever.
The blood of Padomay became the Daedra. The blood of Anu became the stars. The mingled blood of both became the Aedra (hence their capacity for good and evil, and their greater affinity for earthly affairs than the Daedra, who have no connection to Creation).
According to The Amulet of Kings (book in Oblivion) Akatosh and Allesia formed a symbolic union of blood.
On behalf of the suffering human races, St. Alessia, the first in the line of Cyrodiils, sought the aid of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, and ruler of the noble Aedra. Akatosh, looking with pity upon the plight of men, drew precious blood from his own heart, and blessed St. Alessia with this blood of Dragons, and made a Covenant: so long as Alessia's generations were true to the dragon blood, Akatosh would endeavor to seal tight the Gates of Oblivion and deny the armies of Daedra and undead to their enemies, the Daedra-loving Ayleids.
In token of this Covenant, Akatosh gave to Alessia and her descendants the Amulet of Kings and the Eternal Dragonfires of the Imperial City. Thus does Alessia become the first gem in the Cyrodilic Amulet of Kings. The gem is the Red Diamond in the middle of the Amulet. This is the Symbol of the Empire and later taken as the symbol of the Septim line. It is surrounded by eight other gems, one for each of the Divines.
Trials of St. Alessia also has Akatosh position himself as "King" to Allesia's "Queen" and saying she will stand witness to all motal flesh.
Akatosh made a covenant with Alessia in those days so long ago. He gathered the tangled skeins of Oblivion, and knit them fast with the bloody sinews of his Heart, and gave them to Alessia, saying, 'This shall be my token to you, that so long as your blood and oath hold true, yet so shall my blood and oath be true to you. This token shall be the Amulet of Kings, and the Covenant shall be made between us, for I am the King of Spirits, and you are the Queen of Mortals. As you shall stand witness for all Mortal Flesh, so shall I stand witness for all Immortal Spirits.'
And Akatosh drew from his breast a burning handful of his Heart's blood, and he gave it into Alessia's hand, saying, 'This shall also be a token to you of our joined blood and pledged faith. So long as you and your descendants shall wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall this dragonfire burn -- an eternal flame -- as a sign to all men and gods of our faithfulness. So long as the dragonfires shall burn, to you, and to all generations, I swear that my Heart's blood shall hold fast the Gates of Oblivion.
So long as the Blood of the Dragon runs strong in her rulers, the glory of the Empire shall extend in unbroken years. But should the dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness, and the Demon Lords of Misrule shall govern the land.'
-- from the liturgy of the Re-Kindling of the Dragonfires
The Remanada describes Allesia was wife to Shor, Auri-El, and the Sacred Bull (Morihaus).
And to this host appeared at last a spirit who resembled none other thanEl-Estia, queen of ancient times, who bore in her left hand the dragonfire of the aka-tosh and in her right hand the jewels of the covenant and on her breast a wound that spilt void onto her mangled feet. And seeing El-Estia and Chim-el Adabal, Hrol and his knights wailed and set to their knees and prayed for all things to become as right. Unto them the spirit said, I am the healer of all men and the mother of dragons, but as you have run so many times from me so shall I run until you learn my pain, which renders you and all this land dead.
And the spirit fled from them, and they split among hills and forests to find her, all grieving that they had become a villainous people. Hrol and his shieldthane were the only ones to find her, and the king spoke to her, saying, I love you sweet Aless, sweet wife of Shor and of Auri-el and the Sacred Bull, and would render this land alive again, not through pain but through a return to the dragon-fires of covenant, to join east and west and throw off all ruin. And the shieldthane bore witness to the spirit opening naked to his king, carving on a nearby rock the words AND HROL DID LOVE UNTO A HILLOCK before dying in the sight of their union.
When the fifteen other knights found King Hrol, they saw him dead after his labors against a mound of mud. And they parted each in their way, and some went mad, and the two that returned to their homeland beyond Twil would say nothing of Hrol, and acted ashamed for him.
But after nine months that mound of mud became as a small mountain, and there were whispers among the shepherds and bulls. A small community of believers gathered around that growing hill during the days of its first churning, and they were the first to name it the Golden Hill, Sancre Tor. And it was the shepherdess Sed-Yenna who dared climb the hill when she heard his first cry, and at its peak she saw what it had yielded, an infant she named Reman, which is "Light of Man."
And in the child's forehead was the Chim-el Adabal, alive with the dragon-fires of yore and divine promise, and none dared obstruct Sed-Yenna when she climbed the steps of White-Gold Tower to place the babe Reman on his Throne, where he spoke as an adult, saying I AM CYRODIIL COME.
Akatosh gave Allesia an amulet symbolising their "covenant." Covenant in this case being a euphemism in plain sight for marriage.
In Song of Pelinal volume 8 purports Allesia to have achieved apotheosis, taken directly to the heavens by the Gods the final line of text refers to something commonly associated with Dragonbreaks—the main supporting evidence is Kirkbride posts but given these volumes were written by Kirkbride there's more legitimacy there.
"... and left you to gather sinew with my other half, who will bring light thereby to that mortal idea that brings [the Gods] great joy, that is, freedom, which even the Heavens do not truly know, [which is] why our Father, the... [Text lost]... in those first [days/spirits/swirls] before Convention... that which we echoed in our earthly madness. [Let us] now take you Up. We will [show] our true faces... [which eat] one another in amnesia each Age."
Tiber Septim's apotheosis saw him become Talos (maybe).
Who did St Allesia become?
Mara (Goddess of Love): Nearly universal goddess. Origins started in mythic times as a fertility goddess. In Skyrim, Mara is a handmaiden of Kyne. In the Empire, she is Mother-Goddess. She is sometimes associated with Nir of the 'Anuad', the female principle of the cosmos that gave birth to creation. Depending on the religion, she is either married to Akatosh or Lorkhan, or the concubine of both.
Allesia, whose apotheosis and the resultant dragon break meant that she, as Mara/Kyne/Kynareth, married to Shor as a god (spirit) and married to Akatosh/Auri-El (mortal).
The book remarking on a connection to Nir is interesting because one can draw connotations between Nir, Anu, Padomey, and Allesia, Lorkhan (and his various names), and Akatosh/Auri-El. Padomey even vanquishes Anu by striking him through the chest, as was done to Lorkhan. However, the important parts here are Mara's link to Kyne, her association with motherhood, and her marriage/concubinage to both Akatosh and Shor—Shor, who is widowed by Kyne, who is Kynareth—a reflection of Allesia to a T.
In Song of Pelinal volume 2*******, Kyne/Kynareth is even referred to as the Handmaiden, which is a tenuous connection to Mara admittedly but it's an interesting thing to call her by. Handmaiden to who? Herself, technically speaking. IRL we have precedent of divines speaking to themselves as separate beings, the most famous, obviously, being Jesus Christ and God.
(Kirkbride wrote both The Song of Pelinal and Varities of Faith.)
[And then] Perrif spoke to the Handmaiden again, eyes to the Heavens which had not known kindness since the beginning of elven rule, and she spoke as a mortal, whose kindle is beloved by the Gods for its strength-in-weakness, a humility that can burn with metaphor and yet break [easily and] always, always doomed to end in death (and this is why those who let their souls burn anyway are beloved of the Dragon and His Kin), and she said: "And this thing I have thought of, I have named it, and I call it freedom. Which I think is just another word for Shezarr Who Goes Missing... [You] made the first rain at his sundering [and that] is what I ask now for our alien masters... [that] we might sunder them fully and repay their cruelty [by] dispersing them to drown in the Topal. Morihaus, your son, mighty and snorting, gore-horned, winged, when next he flies down, let him bring us anger." ... [And then] Kyne granted Perrif another symbol, a diamond soaked red with the blood of elves, [whose] facets could [un-sector and form] into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers and a name: PELIN-EL [which is] "The Star-Made Knight" [and he] was arrayed in armor [from the future time]. And he walked into the jungles of Cyrod already killing, Morihaus stamping at his side froth-bloody and bellowing from excitement because the Pelinal was come... [and Pelinal] came to Perrif's camp of rebels holding a sword and mace, both encrusted with the smashed viscera of elven faces, feathers and magic beads, which were the markings of the Ayleidoon, stuck to the redness that hung from his weapons, and he lifted them, saying: "These were their eastern chieftains, no longer full of their talking."
Note: Perrif******* = Alessia.
The line, "and she spoke as a mortal, whose kindle is beloved by the Gods for its strength-in-weakness" is odd for someone who is supposedly already a mortal. But it's also worth noting that this humility is what makes her "beloved by Gods," especially the "Dragon and His Kin" i.e. Akatosh/Auri-El and possibly the Ada.
What am I getting at?
Morrihaus is a demigod, half-man, half-god, with no named father.
Therefore it's possible Kynareth birthed a son who was half-divine, half-mortal, from her own motal/divine self with no father involved.
This would mean that Alessia married and had a child with her own divinely born son from her own apothesised self who, thanks to the dragon break involved in her ascension, had now always existed to make such a thing possible.
Since this is Kirkbride, I would fully believe this is possible, especially since it's not too absurd when one compares it to some of the crazy shit typically seen in mythology. Zeus is both father and technically mother to the goddess Athena since she emerged from Zeus' forehead already clad in armour. Zeus and Hera were also brother and sister.
It would also explain why Morrihaus jr was basically a clone of the father from what little we know of him, which would make sense the family tree her would just be a solid straight line going down in 1 direction with both mother and father sharing the same line with no split branches.
*******Pelinal Whitestrake's name was given to him by Kyne, from the Elvish, "PELIN-EL" i.e. Star Knight (Though volume 1 states he had it prior—a coincidence I'm sure that doesn't have any schizo-shit tied to it)
If we go all the way back to the Annotated Anuad, Nir was impregnated (possibly) by Anu.
Pelinal is described as a demigod, and whose origin is more mysterious. Sure, we have "time travelling future cyborg."
Pelinal and Morrihaus are both born of Gods, and I'd posit they have the same mother at the very least: Alessia/Kyne.
Getting somewhat Christian with things, Pelinal and Morrihaus were born from a divine and mortal nature, and I think the father of Pelinal is where things get confusing because their actions don't really correspond to their dad.
And two different fathers: Auri-El/Akatosh/Anu********* for Pelinal and just Kyne (or possibly Shor/Lorkhan/Shezarr) for Morrihaus.
Alessia/Mara/Kyne/Kynareth's marriage to Auri-El and simultaneous marriage to Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan functionally created a truce of sorts between these hostile, divine forces. It explains why thereafter an empire of both men and mer came to be sooner or later. It's possible Shor was also dead (or faking it, given his possibly being a disguise of a trickster god
When Martin destroyed the amulet of kings, and thus breaking the symbolic covenant (or possibly dying with no Septim heirs) it effectively ended the truce, leading to the decline of the empire as Men and Mer eventually went at it again later.
*******Somewhat lending legitimacy to this as an in-universe source, Perrif is Alessia's real name.
Morrihaus himself corroborates this (assuming this is his actual writing*********. Found in TES4, written by Kirkbride).
PELINAL'S DEATH
And in the blood-floored throne room of White-Gold, the severed head of Pelinal spoke to the winged-bull, Morihaus, demigod lover of Al-Esh, saying, "Our enemies have undone me, and spread my body into hiding. In mockery of divine purpose, the Ayleids cut me into eighths, for they are obsessed with this number."And Morihaus, confused, snorted through his ring, saying, "Your crusades went beyond her counsel, Whitestrake, but I am a bull, and therefore reckless in my wit. I think I would go and gore our prisoners if you had left any alive. You are blood-made-glorious, uncle, and will come again, as fox animal or light.Cyrod is still ours."Then Pelinal spoke again for the last time: "Beware, Morihaus, beware! With the foresight of death I know now that my foe yet lives, bitter knowledge to take to my grave. Better that I had died believing myself the victor. Although cast beyond the doors of night, he will return. Be vigilant! I can no longer shield the host of Men from Umaril's retribution."
ALESSIA'S YOUTH DURING THE SLAVE-YEARS
Perrif's original tribe is unknown, but she grew up in Sard, anon Sardarvar Leed, where the Ayleids herded in men from across all the Niben: kothri, nede, al-gemha, men-of-'kreath (though these were later known to be imported from the North), keptu, men-of-ge (who were eventually destroyed when the Flower King Nilichi made great sacrifice to an insect god named [lost]), al-hared, men-of-ket, others; but this was Cyrod, the heart of the imperatum saliache, where men knew no freedom, even to keep family, or choice of name except in secret, and so to their alien masters all of these designations were irrelevant.Men were given over to the lifting of stones, and the draining of the fields, and the upkeep of temple and road; or to become art-tortures for strange pleasures, as in the wailing wheels of Vindasel and the gut-gardens of Sercen; and flesh-sculpture, which was everywhere among the slaves of the Ayleids in those days; or, worse, the realms of the Fire King Hadhuul, where the begetting of drugs drawn from the admixture of daedrons into living hosts let one inhale new visions of torment, and children were set aflame for nighttime tiger sport.
MORIHAUS EXPLAINS ALESSIA'S NAMES
Then Morihaus said to them: "In your tales you have many names for her: Al-Esh, given to her in awe, that when translated sounds like a redundancy, 'the high high', from which come the more familiar corruptions: Aleshut, Esha, Alessia. You knew her as Paravant, given to her when crowned, 'first of its kind', by which the gods meant a mortal worthy of the majesty that is killing-questing-healing, which is also Paraval, Pevesh, Perrethu, Perrif, and, in my case, for it is what I called her when we were lovers: Paravania.""Though she is gone to me, she remains bathed in stars, first Empress, Lady of Heaven, Queen-ut-Cyrod."And they considered themselves full-answered, and departed.
Kyne granted Perrif another symbol, a diamond soaked red with the blood of elves, [whose] facets could [un-sector and form] into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers and a name: PELIN-EL [which is] "The Star-Made Knight"
And they gave birth to Alkosh, the First Cat. And Ahnurr said, "Alkosh, we give you Time, for what is as fast or as slow as a cat?"
And they gave birth to Khenarthi, the Winds. "Khenarthi, to you we give the sky, for what can fly higher than the wind?"
And they gave birth to Magrus, the Cat's Eye. "Magrus, to you we give the sun, for what is brighter than the eye of a cat?"
And they gave birth to Mara, the Mother Cat. "Mara, you are love, for what is more loving than a mother?"
[...]
And Fadomai gave birth to Lorkhaj, the last of her litter, in the Great Darkness.
Morihaus is the son of Kyne/Kynareth, who is the sister of Lorkhan in the Khajiti version of the creation myth.
Pelinal is his uncle (also affirmed in Volume 3 of the Song of Pelinal)
Pelinal is referred to as the 3rd in Volume 1 of the Song of Pelinal—a simpler explanation is offered, but Volume 5 reaffirms their immortality.
That he took the name "Pelinal" was passing strange, no matter his later sobriquets, which were many. That was an Elvish name, and Pelinal was a scourge on that race, and not much given to irony. Pelinal was much too grim for that; even in youth he wore white hair, and trouble followed him. Perhaps his enemies named Pelinal of their own in their tongue, but that is doubtful, for it means "glorious knight", and he was neither to them. Certainly, many others added to that name during his days in Tamriel: he was Pelinal the Whitestrake because of his left hand, made of a killing light; he was Pelinal the Bloody, for he [drank] it in victory; he was Pelinal Insurgent, because he gave the crusades a face; he was Pelinal In Triumph, as the words eventually became synonymous, and men-at-arms gave thanks to the Eight when they saw his banner coming through war; he was Pelinal the Blamer, for he was quick to admonish those allies of his that favored tactics that ran counter to his, that is, sword-theory; and he was Pelinal the Third, though whether this was because some said he was a god guiser, who had incarnated twice before already, or that, simpler, he was the third vision given to Perrif, anon Alessia, in her prayers of liberation before he walked among the quarters of rebellion, is unknown.
Volume 5 of the Song of Pelinal also raises the fact he was possibly Shezarrine.
It is a solid truth that Morihaus was the son of Kyne, but whether or not Pelinal was indeed the Shezarrine is best left unsaid (for once Plontinu, who favored the short sword, said it, and that night he was smothered by moths). It is famous, though, that the two talked of each other as family, with Morihaus as the lesser, and that Pelinal loved him and called him nephew, but these could be merely the fancies of immortals.
Incarnation 1: Lorkhan
Incarnation 2: Shor
Incarnation 3: Shezarr
Everything points towards Pelinal being Shezarrine, with his actions and visual appearance giving him closer ties to humanity than anything else.
However, there is also another, possible interpretation.
Incarnation 1: Auri-El/Akatosh
Incarnation 2: Alduin
Incarnation 3: Pelinal/Akatosh of the Middle Dawn
Song of Pelinal 6
"O Aka[tosh], for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back! Umaril dares call us out, for that is how we made him!" [And it was during] these fits of anger and nonsense that Pelinal would fall into the Madness, where whole swaths of lands were devoured in divine rampage to become Void, and Alessia would have to pray to the Gods for their succor, and they would reach down as one mind and soothe the Whitestrake until he no longer had the will to kill the earth in whole. And Garid of the men-of-ge once saw such a Madness from afar and maneuvered, after it had abated, to drink together with Pelinal, and he asked what such an affliction felt like, to which Pelinal could only answer, "Like when the dream no longer needs its dreamer."
[Editor's Note: This is the oldest and most fragmentary of all the extant Pelinal texts. It is, however, likely closest to the original spoken or sung form of the Song, and therefore has great value despite its brevity. Strangely, it appears that Pelinal is present at Alessia's deathbed, although he was killed by Umaril earlier in the saga (years before Alessia's death). Some scholars believe that this fragment is not actually a part of the Song of Pelinal, but most accept its authenticity although there is still much debate as to its significance.]
"... and left you to gather sinew with my other half, who will bring light thereby to that mortal idea that brings [the Gods] great joy, that is, freedom, which even the Heavens do not truly know, [which is] why our Father, the... [Text lost]... in those first [days/spirits/swirls] before Convention... that which we echoed in our earthly madness. [Let us] now take you Up. We will [show] our true faces... [which eat] one another in amnesia each Age."
A union of Aetherius and of Nirn, a being of raw creation itself, Pelinal remembers, even if he doesn't know why.
That he took the name "Pelinal" was passing strange, no matter his later sobriquets, which were many. That was an Elvish name, and Pelinal was a scourge on that race, and not much given to irony.
He was able to know his name in advance of being given it because he remembers it before it even happens due to who he is.
TLDR: Pelinal Whitestrake is not Shezarrine, he is of Akatosh, if not Akatosh himself Another possibility that I won't even start trying to get into is that the monotheists were correct, and through their marriage to Alessia, Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr & Auri-El effectively fused into a single deity: Akatosh.
********The Annotated Anuad:
The first ones were brothers: Anu and Padomay. They came into the Void, and Time began.
Has time begin when they both enter at the same time, making it a little vague on which is which in relation to who is Akatosh and Lorkhan.
The Khajits version of this myth differs, In the "Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi," the relationship between the Anu and Padomay equivalents differ. Instead of brothers, they are lovers, one male, one female.
In the beginning there were two littermates, Ahnurr and Fadomai. After many phases, Fadomai said to Ahnurr, "Let us wed and make children to share our happiness."
They give birth to 11 kids before Ahnurr wants no more, but Fadomai tricking Ahnurr into a final litter, her final child being Lorkhaj,
There is one interesting thing to compare between the two which helps us settle who is who:
Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time.
Ahnurr caught Fadomai while she was still birthing, and he was angry. Ahnurr struck Fadomai and she fled to birth the last of her litter far away in the Great Darkness. Fadomai's children heard what had happened, and they all came to be with her and protect her from Ahnurr's anger.
And Fadomai gave birth to Lorkhaj, the last of her litter, in the Great Darkness.
"Every culture on Tamriel remembers the Dragon Break in some fashion; to most it is a spiritual anguish that they cannot account for. Several texts survive this timeless period, all (unsurprisingly) conflicting with each other regarding events, people, and regions: wars are mentioned in some that never happen in another, the sun changes color depending on the witness, and the gods either walk among the mortals or they don't. Even the 'one thousand and eight years,' a number (some say arbitrarily) chosen by the Elder Council, is an unreliable measure."―Where were you when the Dragon Broke? (Kirkbride)
I believe that the Annotated Anuad is the creation myth post-Alessia apotheosis, and the Khajit oral tradition is a pre-Alessia apotheosis dragon break. Both are true, both are wrong. The Middle Dawn showed that aspects of the divines can be changed, even forcibly. Alessia being retconned in-universe as always existing due to her achieving apotheosis as a divine, who were all created at once or birthed before the start of reality, who is both wife to Akatosh (as mortal Alessia) and Shor (as divine Kyne), but also their sister (only as Kynareth and Mara, not as Kyne) means her possible appearance in pre-reality (born of both Anu and Padomay) is necessitated just to keep the new in-universe canon and fix a dragon break paradox.
That plays into the meta relationship the series has with its own lore. Much of the contradictory shit is the result of cosmic reality being re-written constantly, usually by having to fix various paradoxes introduced by new outside retcons and lore but also in-universe acts of extreme magical power. The vagueness of some info also enables interpretation, which is where the autism fun and discussion is buried.
