The Boys - An Amazon Prime adaptation of the Ennis comic series

[God of Nothing]

Deconstructing the superhero is dead, in part because it's been done so many times before at varying levels of ineptitude over the years, they've been deconstructed, reconstructed and re-deconstructed. Anyone that used this to say anything of even mild interest or tell an entertaining story within a setting has already done it. There's nothing left to say. There've been seemingly hundreds of comics titles devoted to this, oh what if superheroes were murderers, what if superheroes destroyed the world, what if they were egotistical celebrities and big jerks, and so on. I once read some alt-comics person say, after seeing the seemingly thousandth take on this from some small press outfit or self-published mini-comic at a small press expo that even if you really hate supers and comics about them, you're still making more superhero comics, making more of what you hate and it's not going to be the work that exposes the weaknesses of the sub-genre and brings it down.

i feel like everyone has lost the plot since the new wave of retarded fanfic "writers" came in where they try to do this shit in lieu of actually having a good story and being able to, you know, write

The reason why Miracle Man works is because Moore took the time to actually explore what being an extraordinarily powerful labrat that cannot even begin to grasp their own nature due to thinking its human, albeit in many flowery monologues I've complained about before, is like. Same with Watchmen. There's story beneath the "deconstruction." It's not entirely about "Durr-hurr, capes r stooooopiiiiiiiiiiid."

some rando on /co/ telling everyone about his premise of a normal assassin in a beautiful fantasy world who hates his job but it's the only thing he's good at was more entertaining than most modern slop

we're getting to the point random peoples' ideas are more interesting and enjoyable than year long multi million dollar shows

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Not surprised to hear Starr added those elements, even even beyond the writing his sheer mastery of facial expressions and all of Homelander's twitches and clear hesitation and depression and angst at times always to me made him sympathetic.

Yes, yes, he's my favorite character and I'm a simp for him and Starr, so I'm biased, but it really doesn't make logical sense to me that Kripke & co were so set on the worst shittiest pathetic ending ever for him (I haven't watched it yet... I actually don't want to bc I know I'll cringe and just feel grim. I will, but god I'll need a stiff drink) as a nose thumb to any fans who liked HL best (& as the clear reason most ppl watched the show and its success), but bc of their Trump derangement syndrome, they seem to have cognitive dissonance that... of all the characters, don't they fucking realise they consistently gave him flashbacks or scenes detailing his horrific backstory more than anyone else?

But we're not meant to have any empathy for that bc lol #TrumpBad? And we're apparently idiots for having any empathy? Well then why did you have endless scenes about that, then!

Yes he's a monster and I always knew they'd write he deserved to die, and he did, I can go with that, but the humiliation torture I'm just not satisfied by at all when other characters did fucking horrendous shit too and got away with it.

I'm glad Starr changed things where he could, but the Trump/Leftie good guy stuff soured the show for me when it's so clearly biased. "It's a just moral universe in the show", erm, no it fucking isn't. It's just when the writers wanted it to be that it was.

There's no doubt that Starr sold the character. He made Homelander feel threatening, you could just feel how close he was to snapping in any given situation. Or how at times you couldn't read him at all with that blank stare, which was even more terrifying.
He's on a whole other level, compared to writers. Kripke doesn't deserve to command such talent.

i feel like everyone has lost the plot since the new wave of retarded fanfic "writers" came in where they try to do this shit in lieu of actually having a good story and being able to, you know, write

Yeah. It's been an absolute disaster for the Western entertainment industry.

 

[Overly Serious]

Western (Leftist) Writers view that as too sincere, all of them are incredibly embarrased to make their products, and thus always have to have a wink and a nod at the audience "yes you can enjoy this, yes I know its cringe" so having a Opening video with sincere bits of the show+ fitting music is just completely too invested in the thing they are doing, which they don't want to do.

It's why, even though it's a semi-kids show / young adult show, one of the best live action superhero shows is Stargirl, for the simple reason that it is not ashamed to be a comic book show. No knowing winks towards the camera to say "we know this is silly," no in-character dialogue about how stupid someone's name is or 'don't costumes look silly'. If the show wants a giant robot, it will have a giant robot - and it will play it straight.

I'm not necessarily saying people here would enjoy it (though they might), just holding it up as an example of what you can do when you're not ashamed of yourself. Hell, even that atrocious James Gunn Superman movie couldn't stop mocking itself despite all the clear audience feedback beforehand telling the studios "people want sincerity and less 'deconstruction'". They just couldn't do it.

Why can't they do it? Because the writers don't believe in it, because the writers have lost the innocence that allows them to believe in heroes. Or it was taught out of them at an early age.

 

[SITHRAK!]

I'm certainly not going to try and claim the Nazis were okay with Black and Chinese people. They're the archetypal racial supremacists

There were black Nazis, Indian Nazis, Muslim Nazis, Pacific Islander Nazis, Turks, Kazakhs… the list goes on.

Hitler didn’t give two shits about people’s racial and cultural backgrounds as long as they were nationalist and anti-communist.

Probably because he's a comic fan himself and signed on thinking it was going to be closer to the source.

Imagine signing on for the role of a lifetime based on a comic series you love, only to have it completely defiled by some perverted gay kike’s shit-and-dick fetish and fulminating TDS.
Show butcher is a shadow puppet compared to the depth and complexity of comics butcher.

we needed a "happily ever after" ending with Hughie getting the girl & his life getting back to normal.

That happened in the comics too, though.

 

[Commander X]

"Deconstructions" in all genres, and media have become hack, in part because often no real "deconstruction" is going on. It's often just "here's why [x] is bad and people are stupid for enjoying [x] and why I'm smart for not doing so." There's no real critique going or, no trying to understand what makes [x] work or appeal to people. A lot of trying to reinvent the wheel, bad attempts at pastiche, contempt for genres, developing and "asking" questions and not answering them and pretending that theirs is a different story yet it has the basis as the original while they're calling the original outdated.

One aspect of superhero deconstruction has been Evil Superman. It's been done so badly so many times before, and for a long time. Evil Superman Takes Over The World, Evil Superman Snaps, etc. etc. Usually, these characters don't have anything more to them than "Superman, but he's an EVIL JERK!" and-slash-or being a degenerate or a sociopath. There's nothing to them but being evil for its own sake. Nobody has come up with any new or interesting angles on the basic idea lately and frankly including an Evil Superman (or Evil versions of other iconic superheroes) is the sign of a hack. If Superman as Super Do-Gooder Boy Scout was "boring", the supposed response via Villain Superman has become even more boring.

The trend of the Evil Superman had already become a tiresome cliche back in the Eighties, one that made people sigh tiredly and roll their eyes, and people were mocking the very idea quite a bit by then. Morrison mocked this along with the whole "gritty, grim, more grounded" trend in Eighties' comics during his Animal Man run. An evil Superman variant called Overman, a government-created superhero who'd contracted an STD and went insane, wiping out the other superheroes of his Earth just before the Crisis on Infinite Earths wiped it out, preparing to unleash a doomsday bomb on "the real world". People were already finding Evil Supes ridiculous back by 1990, and here we are, decades later.

 

[BubbaRobot887]

If they wanted to go down the Trump=Homelander road then since Trump only has power because he wins elections wouldn't it have made more sense to have Homelander just be a tool for someone else's evil rather than him be the ultimate evil himself and have someone else The Boys had to take down after dealing with Homelander?

 

[regalterry]

Batman Beyond is a good example of a story being edgier than its predecessor (thought Batman TAS could get pretty dark), without losing sight of what makes the characters compelling.

It would have been very easy to turn Terry into a rebellious teen edgelord, but instead the show repeatedly reinforces the idea that Terry genuinely cares, and that's what makes him worthy to be the new Batman.

There's that episode where he's fighting against Shriek, the whole city is against Terry and calling for his death, yet he is still ready to sacrifice himself to save Gotham.

If they wanted to go down the Trump=Homelander road then since Trump only has power because he wins elections wouldn't it have made more sense to have Homelander just be a tool for someone else's evil rather than him be the ultimate evil himself and have someone else The Boys had to take down after dealing with Homelander?

Shit as the comic was, that was how it actually plays out.

Homelander was not special or unique, Vought could grow a new one whenever they wanted. Black Noir was the one committing most of the heinous shit and making it look like Homelander was the one doing it, as well as being the one encouraging Homelander's worst impulses so he'd snap and he could fulfill his purpose.

Ultimately, the real villain was the organization itself, Homelander just being one of its many victims.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

If they wanted to go down the Trump=Homelander road then since Trump only has power because he wins elections wouldn't it have made more sense to have Homelander just be a tool for someone else's evil rather than him be the ultimate evil himself and have someone else The Boys had to take down after dealing with Homelander?

no, because they believe Trump is an all powerful dictator who is run amok and going to put them in Freedom Camps.

while the reality is obviously not showing this playing out.. they believe it anyways, with the power of DoubleThink.

 

[Zenos Yae Viator]

Batman Beyond is a good example of a story being edgier than its predecessor (thought Batman TAS could get pretty dark), without losing sight of what makes the characters compelling.

It would have been very easy to turn Terry into a rebellious teen edgelord, but instead the show repeatedly reinforces the idea that Terry genuinely cares, and that's what makes him worthy to be the new Batman.

There's that episode where he's fighting against Shriek, the whole city is against Terry and calling for his death, yet he is still ready to sacrifice himself to save Gotham.

Why'd you have to remind me of the good times.

DAMN that DCAU was good, you'll never get anything like that again from the west for the rest of your days.

 

[Not A Bunny]

There's no doubt that Starr sold the character. He made Homelander feel threatening, you could just feel how close he was to snapping in any given situation. Or how at times you couldn't read him at all with with that blank stare, which was even more terrifying.
He's on a whole other level, compared to writers. Kripke doesn't deserve to command such talent.

It's so wild to me that Starr tried so hard to pass on the role of Homelander that an aloof audition reel is exactly what got him the job in the first place. Dude could probably make sleep look compelling.

Why can't they do it? Because the writers don't believe in it, because the writers have lost the innocence that allows them to believe in heroes. Or it was taught out of them at an early age.

The entire criticism ecosystem is over-full with too much analysis. I blame Joss Whedon and his whole "hip to be meta" schtick. I was one of the few people who didn't like "Buffy" back in the day, or rather that I preferred the Kristy Swanson movie rather than the series. If' it's called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", maybe it's a whole lot better if you embrace the absurdity and have some fun with it, rather than make it a seven-season slog about pseudo-feminism and blah-blah horseshit.

"Deconstructions" in all genres, and media have become hack, in part because often no real "deconstruction" is going on. It's often just "here's why [x] is bad and people are stupid for enjoying [x] and why I'm smart for not doing so." There's no real critique going or, no trying to understand what makes [x] work or appeal to people. A lot of trying to reinvent the wheel, bad attempts at pastiche, contempt for genres, developing and "asking" questions and not answering them and pretending that a new, different story has the basis as the original while calling the original outdated.

It's not even Deconstruction anymore. It's the same think with snark. It's just mean-spirited criticism of things that people used to like for the sake of pseudo-intellectually-justified postmodern virtue rather than how people actually feel about things.

Ultimately, the real villain was the organization itself, Homelander just being one of its many victims.

Yeah, isn't it interesting that the show veered off into blaming a Trump figure for everything, rather than the obvious evil corporation looming in the background.

Amazon probably had nothing to do with that creative decision, right?

 

[Overly Serious]

If they wanted to go down the Trump=Homelander road then since Trump only has power because he wins elections wouldn't it have made more sense to have Homelander just be a tool for someone else's evil rather than him be the ultimate evil himself and have someone else The Boys had to take down after dealing with Homelander?

They don't believe that Trump wins elections. He cheats and when he does win them, it's some kind of trick on the people that he has played. It is anathema to them that Trump actually is popular. They cannot make a proper Trump analogy because it wouldn't say what they want it to say.

EDIT: Much what @Zenos Yae Viator says.

 

[Sirfaggot]

This show will age terribly, and it fully deserves to. Even the left-wing partisans clapping like seals will eventually look back and wonder why the show, notoriously obsessed with current year headlines, studiously avoids talking about Israel at all.

A growing percentage of Democrats, particularly the young adults this show is relying upon for its cultural relevance and staying power, are indifferent to the discourse surrounding Trump. He's old hat. Every observation there is to make has already been reiterated a million times over, and most of the things the "old guard" of centrist, middle-aged liberal voters (read: Kripke) find most infuriating about him - his contemptuous dismissal of decorum and etiquette, his impulsiveness, his narcissism, his cultish base, his inability to adopt a more "presidential" manner of speech - just seem superficial or besides-the-point to most gen Z lefties. They're a lot more concerned about policy changes with a material impact on their goals than the public persona of our current leader, so anti-Trump commentaries like this are regarded as vindictive slop. The left is beyond focusing their energies on a single individual and largely perceive this as a kind of convert apologia for the structures and laws that actually impede their agenda's advance.

Nobody, left or right, likes Homelander because of his use as an allegory for Trump. They like him in spite of that.

 

[BubbaRobot887]

They don't believe that Trump wins elections. He cheats and when he does win them, it's some kind of trick on the people that he has played. It is anathema to them that Trump actually is popular. They cannot make a proper Trump analogy because it wouldn't say what they want it to say.

EDIT: Much what @Zenos Yae Viator says.

Bit I thought US elections were 100% Secure and that is why anyone who denies the results of the 2020 election is arrested and banned from social media?

These people can't even think at this point I guess. I mean they keep comparing Trump to Hitler and Hitler got his power by winning a election(One of the reasons he became a dictator was that things were inproving in Germany and he said himself the Nazis wouldn't be able to win elections if that trend continued)so we have high IQ college educated people who can't think and don't know history.

I would love to see a version of this story not written by people with TDS because there is so much they could have done with the setup and Homelander but instead they told a boring story that could have ended in season two if the stripped out the filler.

 

[BubbaRobot887]

Batman Beyond is a good example of a story being edgier than its predecessor (thought Batman TAS could get pretty dark), without losing sight of what makes the characters compelling.

It would have been very easy to turn Terry into a rebellious teen edgelord, but instead the show repeatedly reinforces the idea that Terry genuinely cares, and that's what makes him worthy to be the new Batman.

There's that episode where he's fighting against Shriek, the whole city is against Terry and calling for his death, yet he is still ready to sacrifice himself to save Gotham.

There is a reaso Batman Beyond is one of my favorite TV shows, they were really cooking with that one.

 

[Aelfled]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but another Homelander comparison as a villain is Loki in the Marvel films. In Thor, he's a sort of tragic anti-villain who descends into full madness and insanity, then in Avengers he's a real threat that all the Avengers put together struggle to fight.... until the ending where, like HL, he's given a humiliating pathetic beat down by Hulk and turned into a joke. He basically remains a joke through Thor 2, gets a somewhat grissly but also fuck you Thanos redemptive death in Infinity War (albeit anticlimactic because it happens in like the 1st 2 minutes)

And then he gets his own tv series, which sticks to that redemption arc and the tragic nuances of his character, and gives him further depth, and in the end, to be a hero. None of it's perfect, per se, but it's still a far, far more satisfying villain character arc (aided, like with Starr, by how much better than 80% of the Marvel cast Hiddleston is. If he hadn't been as good I doubt the various writers would have dedicated so much to him).

I'm by no means saying I wanted, or would've believed in, a heroic redemption for HL, but as people have said, going out with a dignified, seething, animalistic fuck you (and fuck everybody in the world who made me this and made it impossible for me to ever have love and respect), and then being killed, orrr, if he hadn't beat Ryan, at least saving him in some way before going out as a feral disempowered threat who would be so disgusted to be a human mudperson he'd rather fucking die - I'd prefer. Also it makes Butcher's final win half in half. He gets his revenge, but HL still doesn't and never will understand why he "deserves it". Idk.

 

[George Lucas]

I’m gonna start out by saying I liked Watchmen. I think it’s a good story, excellent art, and I also think it is actually a realistic representation of how real superheroes would act if they existed. Alan Moore is a bit of a meme, but he is still very intelligent and a good writer. People liking Rorschach should not make Moore upset. It should make him happy because of how well he understood someone who doesn’t think like him at all. All the characters in Watchmen feel like real people whose actions reflect their motives and worldview.

Contrast this with this comic and show, which I didn’t know very much about until the buzz about this finale occurred, and the difference is very clear. It’s a really big issue I have with contemporary writing. All the characters are just reflections of the creators’ worldviews. There is a common meme about how the left ‘projects’ itself onto everything. This Homelander character being a dick is exactly that kind of projection. Weak people absolutely become assholes when they achieve any kind of power because they are insecure about their inadequacies. When I look at that I can think ‘yes, this is exactly how the author would behave if given the opportunity’. But not everyone is weak. Some people are strong. Some people are moralists, like Rorshach. Some people masterminds, like Ozymandias. Some people are detached, like Dr. Manhattan. On the flip side there are weak, ineffective people who are irresponsible with power, like the Comedian and Night Owl. And then there are women, like Laurie, lol, lmao.

The Boys is basically if you took Watchmen, removed the strong characters, and claimed ‘this is more realistic!’ but it isn’t. The world does have strong people. The authors are just completely blind to it.

 

[verissimus]

Deconstructing the superhero is dead,

How is it even "deconstructing superheroes" when most of the times the so called "heroes" in question are just a bunch of douchey costume vigilantes? Who did anything selfless or heroic in Watchmen? Certainly not Dr. Manhattan.

 

[Blazeuser56]

what the fuck is this shit? people unironically like garth ennis? fuck me thats dire

I have no interest in reading anything written by this sicko.

Garth Ennis can write, it's just that his worst works (The Boys and Crossed) are well known while other works like Punisher MAX, Preacher or Hitman don't really get much recognition.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

I will say I found this show fairly entertaining, in spite of it's gratuitous gore (to the point where it felt like they were afraid if they weren't making over the top deaths they'd lose their audience, and maybe that's show) and the absolutely political fried brain... I generally don't like political references in my shows....
It's nothing really unique, but it does alright for itself I'd say.
That said, I'm happy it's finished. It's a contained story, and nothing sucks more than when a show gets popular and feels the need to drag on.

Garth Ennis can write, it's just that his worst works (The Boys and Crossed) are well known while other works like Punisher MAX, Preacher or Hitman don't really get much recognition.

Is that the Agent 47 movie? Or is it just comics? I'd like to see that.