Opinion Telling it Like it is Without the Gaslighting - Or realizing that you do need us non-men for some things

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LUCY LEADER
JUN 17, 2023

I am grateful for many things in my life and one of these is that I am not a taxpayer who lives in California. Because it would really rip my shorts to know that my insurance premiums cost me more since January 1, 2023, when a new, shiny bit of legislation came into force. Touted as a bill that will “will protect trans kids and their families” from the reality-based laws of other states that recognize the futility of drugs and surgeries in a pointless quest to change sex, California is now a “refuge”, not from delusional thinking, but from science-based care for distressed children who have been lied to in their states of residence. I don’t see anything in this bill that will support these kids once they realize that a trans identity did not help their mental health, in fact they are now worse off, but hey, you can’t win them all.

Not content with promoting pointless medical experimentation on children, Californian legislators have come up with a doozy of a new bill that would have left George Orwell so green with envy that he could be mistaken for the Hulk or the Jolly Green Giant.

Did you know that gay male couples suffer from “infertility”? Um, no neither did I. I did know that as long as you are only having same sex intercourse no one will ever get pregnant (this is true for lesbians as well), but it had never occurred to me to think of it like this. I mean that’s why you don’t need contraception in prisons because unless you have an opposite sex guard involved, whether sex is consensual or rape, no conception is going to be taking place. Well until recently anyway when males claiming to have lady dicks have been housed with vulnerable women; that’s been a game changer for prison health care.

This bill redefines infertility from a medical condition to a status like “gay” or “single” and will raise annual employer-based insurance premiums more than US$330 million a year from what they are now.

Most insurance plans would require IVF to be paid for on the basis of someone’s relationship status or sexual orientation, meaning that not only women would have access to this. This rather overlooks the fact that most women using IVF are utilizing their own eggs and their own uterus to produce their baby.

For those who have not been paying attention, men, whether gay or straight, do not have automatic access to either of these assets.

But clearly this is not considered a problem by those behind this bill, because you just get a “surrogate” to do that messy pregnancy bit. (It will be so much easier when humans can just be grown in giant beakers in a lab somewhere.)

“Fertility equality” is not about infertility at all, it is about biology.

One of the sponsors of this bill is a group called Men Having Babies (MHB). On its homepage there are numerous references to “men”, “parents” and “surrogacy”, but nary a “woman” (or God forbid, a “mother”) in sight. Except for their name, not even babies rate a mention. This is an example of the sort of dehumanizing that needs to happen for surrogacy to exist.

When “pregnancy treatments” are part of legislation, where does this leave women?

Probably in the same place as those who promote prostitution as “sex work”, subject to the same global market that already traffics girls and women globally to meet the fetishes, desires and demands of men who are happy to rent a female body for their use. What’s the difference between renting a vagina for 40 minutes and renting a uterus for 40 weeks? For some, clearly this is acceptable. Commodifying women’s bodies has always been done in every era and most cultures, but this wins first prize for overt misogyny.

How do Californian legislators and groups like MHB plan to move those cells in a petri dish into the necessary home of a woman’s uterus to develop into their family creating purchase (AKA a baby)? Will women be given a choice if picked up for some minor crime to do jail time or grow a baby for some gay guys? Will they scour the hospital system for women in comas and persistent vegetative states? Why not impregnate them since they are just lying there doing nothing anyway?

Why are the physical and emotional harms of surrogacy for women able to be ignored? Why is regarding women as disposable baby oven units considered humane?

“Surrogates”, “gestational carriers”, “birth mothers”: these are all terms that can be summed up in one succinct word: women. Using euphemisms is a classic method of whitewashing uncomfortable truths that don’t look so pretty in the bright light of reality. Women are so much more than “non-men”.

Hey dude, babies have human rights too

All the harm caused to women pales into insignificance when compared to the fate of babies born via surrogacy. I have already written about surrogacy here and touched on this in other posts as well. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, my main concern is not women, but babies.

Contrary to the claims of some members of the LGBTQ+ community (how much community can there really be when the T faction is busily erasing the LGB portion, I really don’t know), no members of this group are as vulnerable as babies. Adults have access to resources that no baby has. We can speak and let others know what our needs are and what is causing us harm. We are recognized as having human rights that in many countries are recognized and upheld by governments and legislation.

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is an international treaty, which entered into force in September 1990, aims to protect the rights of children worldwide. It calls on States Parties to take all appropriate measures to ensure that children’s rights are protected, including freedom from exploitation and abuse. The CRC is the most widely ratified human rights treaty in the world. Only two countries have not ratified the Convention. Yes, shamefully, the United States is one. Somalia is the other.

Unfortunately, in the USA it is not considered necessary to safeguard the rights of babies against being created on the whims of adults who can pay for them.

This man created an entire industry around surrogacy to support his pedophilia, but other men keep it closer to home and restrict their sexual abuse of babies and children to relatives and their own children.

Am I in any way implying that gay men are pedophiles? Of course not and research has not indicated any link between being gay and operating as a pedophile. But, as 80-90% of all convicted sex offenders are male, sexual orientation is clearly not as important as a person’s sex.

“Parenting options” as outlined on the MHB website should not be including the deliberate creation of trauma in the brains and bodies of innocent babies. The “anguish and yearning” that grown men feel because they can’t produce their own babies should not be prioritized over the production and sale of the most vulnerable human beings.

I have written at length about what babies expect to find and what they need for optimal, healthy development. Here, here, and here are only three of the many places I have discussed in detail about what babies expect to find once they emerge from the body of a woman who they regard as their mother. What they are never born to expect is to be handed over to physiological strangers and removed entirely from the only body they know.

Adults born out of surrogacy are now speaking up and they are not OK. This man and this woman know that they were bought and sold commodities and they are not (as proponents of surrogacy would have us believe), grateful to be alive. They feel disconnected and adrift and live with the feeling of permanent loss. Surrogacy has created a chasm for them that can never be filled.

Surrogacy always breaches the best interests of babies. Surrogacy is not like adoption because adoption occurs as the result of a mistake, a failure of contraception or unfortunate circumstances and the best interests of the child is paramount. Surrogacy is a deliberate, conscious choice to cause harm to both women and babies. Why is it considered tragic if a newborn’s mother dies, but acceptable when the same conditions are planned for to cater to the desires of adults who bought their baby?

Legalizing surrogacy as the new law in California would have it only serves adults while ignoring the needs of babies. To compound the harm in this instance, two men parenting denies babies the foundational rights inherent in the mother/baby dyad by dispensing with any sort of mother at all.

Women’s bodies are not a “pregnancy treatment” for men. There is no “human right” to have a baby. Women have had to live with unequal treatment compared with men for well, forever actually. Gay men need to live with the outcomes that their sexual orientation offers them. Even if this means they won’t have anyone calling them Dad. Because the price for this is too high and it’s women and babies paying.
 
For those who have not been paying attention, men, whether gay or straight, do not have automatic access to either of these assets
REEEEEEEEE some men have uteri and ovaries and can get pregnant!!! And because Science™ says some men can get pregnant it means  all men who wants to get pregnant should be able to do so. Saying anything else is gaslighting!
 
Adults born out of surrogacy are now speaking up and they are not OK. This man and this woman know that they were bought and sold commodities and they are not (as proponents of surrogacy would have us believe), grateful to be alive. They feel disconnected and adrift and live with the feeling of permanent loss. Surrogacy has created a chasm for them that can never be filled.
How is this any different from how children dumped by their parents into the adoption system feel when they reach adulthood? You say adoption comes as a result of mistake or failure of contraception, how does she think that makes adoptees feel?
Surrogacy always breaches the best interests of babies. Surrogacy is not like adoption because adoption occurs as the result of a mistake, a failure of contraception or unfortunate circumstances and the best interests of the child is paramount. Surrogacy is a deliberate, conscious choice to cause harm to both women and babies. Why is it considered tragic if a newborn’s mother dies, but acceptable when the same conditions are planned for to cater to the desires of adults who bought their baby?
Wtf is she smoking. How is dumping a baby to be raised by the state or foster system the best interest of the baby? The kid doesn't have any parents then. How is that worse than giving it to two parents? I don't think surrogacy is good really, but how is it different? Adoption exists, safe haven laws where you can literally just hand over a baby and walk off exist to serve the interests of deadbeat mothers.
 
How is this any different from how children dumped by their parents into the adoption system feel when they reach adulthood? You say adoption comes as a result of mistake or failure of contraception, how does she think that makes adoptees feel?

Wtf is she smoking. How is dumping a baby to be raised by the state or foster system the best interest of the baby? The kid doesn't have any parents then. How is that worse than giving it to two parents? I don't think surrogacy is good really, but how is it different? Adoption exists, safe haven laws where you can literally just hand over a baby and walk off exist to serve the interests of deadbeat mothers.
bingo jingo mateys!
on unrelated note: I swear, scientists™ keep saying stupid bullshit like how religion is outdated and how philosophy has been replaced by science yet shit like this keeps getting thrown under the sun.
 
Eh, I'm not concerned about surrogacy expanding. Even if they actually do go as far as coercing women into getting pregnant instead if going to jail, or growing kids in women in vegetative states.

I'm just not concerned with the welfare of women at all. Fuck them.
 
Am I in any way implying that gay men are pedophiles? Of course not and research has not indicated any link between being gay and operating as a pedophile.
Not entirely sure I’d put money on that
i don't wanna read all this TLDR?
Gays are putting the first section of law in and the second will be that becasue they have the right to Ivf they have the right to surrogacy so it will be fully legalised and encouraged
I don't think surrogacy is good really, but how is it different?
It is different because it creates a child as a commodity. Adoption and fostering takes existing children and tries to give them families (I know there are many abuses but that is the main goal.) fostering and adoption are about the child and giving it a home. Surrogacy is about the parents and their want for a child as commodity.
There are a lot of disturbing areas of lobbying converging.
1. Multi parent embryos - this weakens the link between the child and the parents. Who gets listed as mother and father on the birth certificate? There are calls to revamp birth certificates for this is also for..
2. Trannies, who want their sex changed when the birth certificate is not a validation document it’s a record of reality that’s important for history and
3. Tranny parents who want the mother to be listed as dad or vv again for validation. Birth certs are supposed to be reality based - imagine trying to create a family history or do research. It makes things subjective
4. Big push for public ownership of children, named person legislation, state schools indoctrination, laws to take kids from parents who won’t troon them out.
It’s all converging on breaking this simple ‘you have a mother and a father and they have rights and responsibilities to and over you and can protect you’ idea.
If children can be made at whim, and taken from their birth mother legally and legally made someone else’s, what does that do to child protection? What happens when we can create embryos from somatic tissues and grow them in a surrogate and they don’t have a real mother or father? You’re essentially creating the situation where kids are grown and sold, and we all know that there’s a large market for children and not from loving homes.
All this is setting the groundwork for this transhumanism future where a child can be grown and sold
I'm just not concerned with the welfare of women at all. Fuck them.
Are you concerned with the welfare of children? Its children this really impacts. It’s pretty bad for women too, I know it’ll end up being ‘no womb no bennies’ but it’s children who will suffer most.
Gay men should not be able to order a baby like a takeaway
 
Women have had to live with unequal treatment compared with men for well, forever actually.
Didn't ask, don't care, not measuring 'oppression' dicks with you.
Surrogacy always breaches the best interests of babies.
How?
Surrogacy is not like adoption because adoption occurs as the result of a mistake, a failure of contraception or unfortunate circumstances and the best interests of the child is paramount. Surrogacy is a deliberate, conscious choice to cause harm to both women and babies.
How? I appreciate how comfortable you are in your ex cathedra proclamations, but for those of us who don't believe that women are all good and men are all evil, show your work.
Why is it considered tragic if a newborn’s mother dies, but acceptable when the same conditions are planned for to cater to the desires of adults who bought their baby?
I didn't know that it was, but thanks for that strawman.
Adults born out of surrogacy are now speaking up and they are not OK. This man and this woman know that they were bought and sold commodities and they are not (as proponents of surrogacy would have us believe), grateful to be alive. They feel disconnected and adrift and live with the feeling of permanent loss. Surrogacy has created a chasm for them that can never be filled.
Not clicking links. The state foster care/adoption system, which she sets implies is superior to surrogacy continues to create human wreckage across this country and fill homeless shelters and prisons.
 
It is different because it creates a child as a commodity. Adoption and fostering takes existing children and tries to give them families (I know there are many abuses but that is the main goal.) fostering and adoption are about the child and giving it a home. Surrogacy is about the parents and their want for a child as commodity.
I know the issue is multifaceted and I agree with pretty much every point you made, but my questions were about how is dumping a child for convenience putting the child's interest first, as the article author claims. She was making a case that a mother abandoning a child to two specific people is somehow different from abandoning it to the state. It isn't.
Are you concerned with the welfare of children? Its children this really impacts. It’s pretty bad for women too, I know it’ll end up being ‘no womb no bennies’ but it’s children who will suffer most.
Gay men should not be able to order a baby like a takeaway
I agree with this. However, women shouldn't be able to scrape viable babies out like a tumor, or dump newborns at a safe haven like trash. It seems like "women's reproductive rights" already don't give a shit about babies, born or not.
 
She was making a case that a mother abandoning a child to two specific people is somehow different from abandoning it to the state. It isn't.
She didn’t have the child specifically to dump it, I think is the point. Dumping a child is pretty grim behaviour anyway, and creating one like a custom order is even worse. Making surrogacy common is going to be a very unpleasant slippery slope.
 
She didn’t have the child specifically to dump it, I think is the point. Dumping a child is pretty grim behaviour anyway, and creating one like a custom order is even worse. Making surrogacy common is going to be a very unpleasant slippery slope.
The state of politics throughout the West when they hear about troons taking over women's everything is "good, fuck those whores, they did it to themselves." I don't know that the author's appealing to transcendent, sacred morality will work when women's rights gave us family and divorce courts, twenty years of forced labor for men unlucky enough to cross a succubus' path, fetuses called reproductive matter, living babies partial-birth aborted or dropped off anonymously like garbage. I don't think an appeal to sacred femininity / motherhood or the sacrosanct prohibition on harming babies is going to work anymore. Why is any of what you listed wrong when all of what I listed has been right, and for decades? Women want babies to be both alive and dead until she makes her choice. It seems the article author wants pregnancy and childbirth to be both sacred and also just an animal state women sometimes get into, which has no meaning or morality attached to it. It's the absurdity of a mother screaming "Is nothing sacred?!" right after she placed her child in Molech's arms.
 
What you listed isn’t right. This is another thing that isn’t right and it’s going to be normalised and join your list. It’s all quite depressing. Molech indeed
I'm a gay man and I agree with you on basically everything you've said. It's just a hard sell under moral relativism. As a religious man I do believe in a transcendent moral standard, written by G-d who enforces it perfectly, whether here on earth or when someone arrives in his court. Anyway I don't think I could ever use surrogacy. I'd rather just adopt a child who's here already. And yeah, Molech, Foucault, Marx
 
Are you concerned with the welfare of children? Its children this really impacts. It’s pretty bad for women too, I know it’ll end up being ‘no womb no bennies’ but it’s children who will suffer most.
Gay men should not be able to order a baby like a takeaway
How so? The kid literally wouldn't have been born without this. It's not like adoption, the child is being created solely for this opportunity. I don't think there is a single thing you could do to a child (and I don't think most gay men intend to harm their children) that would literally be better than the child never having been born to begin with.
 
There's a gay couple currently suing because one of the twins their surrogate gave birth to is a girl, rather than the two boys they ordered from the embryo transfer.
They can't be happy with the healthy girl, because they'd made a tailored, designer order - two twin boys.
Speaks of fetish to me, not just commodity.
All of it stinks, and people can disregard the overall incredible harm it's going to do to society, whining about how society already isn't fair, and "what about me, ablooo, ablooo, I don't get what I want, ablooo, ablooo, therefore everyone else can get fucked, ablooo, ablooo, its all everyone else's fault"
to be blunt, being bitter about the fact that fairness was never fucking promised to anyone is only poisoning yourself, and your ability to connect to your own humanity.
Espousing tenets of absolute morality while losing sight of why you hold them in the first place, and the humans involved in those positions, rather than the debate fuel they provide, is a pretty poor show, and is very revealing. That's not to say I disagree with the overall point.

I'm sympathetic to the pain so many men in society are in. They've been shat on, abandoned, abused and shut out from the promise of the future shilled to them constantly by every institution around them. Please don't let them take your humanity, your strength, your ability, at least, to hope that future generations of men can have better.


The alienation of men and women for decades, I believe, has been a top down, deliberate effort to break the family unit, to stop men having anything to fight for, and it makes me desperately sad. I love men, their strengths, their differences from women, the way we compliment each other, and I always have. I would feel bereft without men in society, but it seems there's a real determination to stop men having any stake in society at all.
 
Wtf is she smoking. How is dumping a baby to be raised by the state or foster system the best interest of the baby? The kid doesn't have any parents then. How is that worse than giving it to two parents? I don't think surrogacy is good really, but how is it different? Adoption exists, safe haven laws where you can literally just hand over a baby and walk off exist to serve the interests of deadbeat mothers.
I kinda get what what she is getting at. The whole point of the adoption/foster system is to find a better home for the child. Ideally they wouldn't be in the system forever and will get adopted into a better family than their original one. So any familys wanting children could adopt and it would be a moral good because you are helping abandoned children. Meanwhile surrogacy is just to feed gay men's vanity.
 
How so? The kid literally wouldn't have been born without this. It's not like adoption, the child is being created solely for this opportunity. I don't think there is a single thing you could do to a child (and I don't think most gay men intend to harm their children) that would literally be better than the child never having been born to begin with.
It is extremely easy to argue that if a child is not born, it cannot experience suffering. If the child is never even conceived, it also does not have the moral objections that abortion brings up. The general point is that children born as a result of surrogacy are inherently set up to suffer more than a child who is adopted. I don't know whether that's true, it's a fairly abstract argument, but I think a better argument is that bringing a child into the world that is guaranteed to be separated from their biological mother when we don't have a clear idea of the impact that has on children, is more fucked that providing a child that has already been brought into the world and been separated from their parents a home and a family, presumably well enough resourced to look after them and with a legitimate interest in raising a child, if they were willing to go through with a surrogacy. Essentially, rather than likely adding to the collective misery of humans by very intentionally bringing a child into the world, why not reduce the collective misery by adopting a child already in a shit place as an orphan, and improving their lives. It's ultimately a selfish, if likely innate, desire to only be willing to raise a child of your own genetics if you're in a homosexual couple.

This sort of ignores the argument about the commodification of "paying for babies" and "hiring out wombs", but you were primarily asking about the childs welfare.
 
It is extremely easy to argue that if a child is not born, it cannot experience suffering. If the child is never even conceived, it also does not have the moral objections that abortion brings up. The general point is that children born as a result of surrogacy are inherently set up to suffer more than a child who is adopted. I don't know whether that's true, it's a fairly abstract argument, but I think a better argument is that bringing a child into the world that is guaranteed to be separated from their biological mother when we don't have a clear idea of the impact that has on children, is more fucked that providing a child that has already been brought into the world and been separated from their parents a home and a family, presumably well enough resourced to look after them and with a legitimate interest in raising a child, if they were willing to go through with a surrogacy. Essentially, rather than likely adding to the collective misery of humans by very intentionally bringing a child into the world, why not reduce the collective misery by adopting a child already in a shit place as an orphan, and improving their lives. It's ultimately a selfish, if likely innate, desire to only be willing to raise a child of your own genetics if you're in a homosexual couple.

This sort of ignores the argument about the commodification of "paying for babies" and "hiring out wombs", but you were primarily asking about the childs welfare.
Look, if adoption agencies weren't so heavily regulated that might be a fair case. My dad adopted a girl with his wife a while ago, a newborn because they were concerned his wife couldn't handle the physical strains of pregnancy. They had to go through several interviews, they had to buy fire extinguishers for every floor in the house, they had to have someone audit the property, and they paid for all of this.

So you are posing a moral question against an economic one. Surrogacy is better because it's easier and there's no middleman getting in the way. You might argue surrogacy agencies but those aren't required, two gay men could literally pay their best girl friend to get knocked up for them.

FuckedOffToff said:
I'm sympathetic to the pain so many men in society are in. They've been shat on, abandoned, abused and shut out from the promise of the future shilled to them constantly by every institution around them. Please don't let them take your humanity, your strength, your ability, at least, to hope that future generations of men can have better. The alienation of men and women for decades, I believe, has been a top down, deliberate effort to break the family unit, to stop men having anything to fight for, and it makes me desperately sad. I love men, their strengths, their differences from women, the way we compliment each other, and I always have. I would feel bereft without men in society, but it seems there's a real determination to stop men having any stake in society at all. m sympathetic to the pain so many men in society are in. They've been shat on, abandoned, abused and shut out from the promise of the future shilled to them constantly by every institution around them. Please don't let them take your humanity, your strength, your ability, at least, to hope that future generations of men can have better. The alienation of men and women for decades, I believe, has been a top down, deliberate effort to break the family unit, to stop men having anything to fight for, and it makes me desperately sad. I love men, their strengths, their differences from women, the way we compliment each other, and I always have. I would feel bereft without men in society, but it seems there's a real determination to stop men having any stake in society at all.

I appreciate the sentiment but as long as women like you are outnumbered by women who openly mock, deride, and laugh at men for their ills, then I have no desire to participate in this society.
 
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