Team Fortress 2 - Hat Fortress 2: America's #1 War-themed Hat Simulator

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Best class(es) to play as?


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The only things that need a nerf are the gas passer (it needs a full rework frankly, both in PvP and in MvM), and maybe beggar's, explosive headshot, and sco res. Those are the main drivers of metafaggotry. Even then they only need slight nerfs to stop them from being unambiguously the "best" options.
funny thing is, these "best" options (except the gas) are balanced, the situations that'd balance them out don't appear in vanilla mvm at all
  1. ignoring the fact that gas passer is just an upgrade, this problem can be solved by just splitting the damage in three upgrades (or basically just make it behave like explo headshots), you go beyond the "real" problem, you end up discovering that it makes pyro rather inflexible since he's got no range nor any extra mobility whatsoever
  2. beggar's weakness is the loss of the range soldier's got, but in vanilla mvm there's no situation where you need soldier's range, so this never comes up
  3. scotres is just an economy sticky that hinges on your know-how of when and where you should do your traps, put it in a mission that isn't a snore and it gets dunked by the stock
 
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rejected, you'd force players to metafag even harder
  1. removing the rocket specialist on soldier's launchers won't give an incentive to use the dh, it will pidgeon-hole him into playing beggars, splash is THAT important on him and the range of the other launchers means nothing if they're subjected to falloff
  2. scout needs the extra speed upgrades to exist full stop, hurting his mobility in any way is practically speaking a death sentence for him
the way to give an incentive for the other weapons is to remove arbitrary limits like the 520 h/u speed limit or the upgrade ticks going away on innate bonuses (ex. the dh has three dmg upgrade ticks instead of four) and to buff the irredemably/conditionally bad ones (like the liberty, the loch and so on)
some weapons can't be salvaged though, the scorch/FaN are an inherently bad weapons since their strong suit (knockback) require too much to be made practical
Aren't you already pigeonholed into playing the beggars? If you want to play "optimally", at least. It's not even for the splash, but because of how cheap and powerful it is. Range isn't as much of an issue with the Beggar's either, because you can always get a good close/mid range position on the bots. 99% of the maps are constructed that way. As for your second point, Scout with less movespeed doesn't feel dead to me. Take away all related upgrades and I'll just play him even more as a Pyro - ambushing bots from the sides and back. He still has all of his damage kit and free HP from money pickups.

My stance, generally, is that you cannot get rid of metafaggotry no matter how hard you try. Better games and smarter devs than do-nothing Valve have tried and failed. Incentives and modified playstyles to keep it fun are all you can really do, the rest is on the players. I don't consider "all the upgrades available, but it's on this side-grade vs. some other weapon" modified enough. That's the controversial bit, I guess. A lot of recent community MvM missions have that as custom weapons and my eyes glaze over as soon as I see the torrent of miniscule stat autism.

The last things we need in MvM are Soldier damage and Scout speed nerfs.
The only things that need a nerf are the gas passer (it needs a full rework frankly, both in PvP and in MvM), and maybe beggar's, explosive headshot, and sco res. Those are the main drivers of metafaggotry. Even then they only need slight nerfs to stop them from being unambiguously the "best" options.
I'm not GMO enough to consider Jump Height being OP because it fucks with robot AI or the sentry's building HP upgrades because you can wrangle it to be a portable heavy and build canteens cost 50$, but I'd hit all of those with nerfs. My real hot take is that there's only so much you can wring out of bot behavior and the core tower defense loop. With the way things currently are, you can steamroll through what's possible with just brute force thanks to all the higher upgrade tiers, Two Cities additions and the amount of money you're given in your average mission experience.
 
Aren't you already pigeonholed into playing the beggars? If you want to play "optimally", at least. It's not even for the splash, but because of how cheap and powerful it is. Range isn't as much of an issue with the Beggar's either, because you can always get a good close/mid range position on the bots. 99% of the maps are constructed that way.
if we're speaking in a vanilla-only enviroment then you're being pidgeonholed into using it the same way you're pidgeonholed into using phlog, not out of a necessity (the missions are offensively easy), but because you want to be done with them as fast as possible
but if you want to get technical the beggar's a beast of a weapon that gives soldier the ability to contend with a pyro or an heavy...
but in a vacuum, there's multiple factors that stop you from reaching that output that can range from team composition or simple skill, the other launchers might not have the same output and/or economy but are way more accessible than the beggar's since they're less autistic
As for your second point, Scout with less movespeed doesn't feel dead to me. Take away all related upgrades and I'll just play him even more as a Pyro - ambushing bots from the sides and back. He still has all of his damage kit and free HP from money pickups.
because this still hinges on the vanilla maps, and those lack the required density and/or pressure to make you think about what you're doing, there's a reason if pacifist scout became a thing in itself
and yes, even in custom/harder maps/missions you will hear about how there's no specific amount of speed/jump upgrades chosen, but that still doesn't warrant killing off his entire mobility upgrades over one weapon that still won't get used since it's grossly outclassed by his big 3
My stance, generally, is that you cannot get rid of metafaggotry no matter how hard you try. Better games and smarter devs than do-nothing Valve have tried and failed. Incentives and modified playstyles to keep it fun are all you can really do, the rest is on the players. I don't consider "all the upgrades available, but it's on this side-grade vs. some other weapon" modified enough. That's the controversial bit, I guess. A lot of recent community MvM missions have that as custom weapons and my eyes glaze over as soon as I see the torrent of miniscule stat autism.
metafaggotry is a necessary evil, you don't give a baseline for players you'll get a sequel to boot camp pubs basically
nevertheless as i mention again the solution to mvm's balance problem is to tweak the salvageable weapons (as an example decrease the liberty's -25% damage into a -10% damage, all of a sudden you've got an unique and legitimate contender for stock) and make the unsalvagable ones more bearable (letting players have the choice of disabling the knockback on the FaN/scorch with an upgrade).
nerfs should be reserved only for extreme cases like the gas passer (no, as i write again scotres and beggars are balanced, it's a matter of the maps/missions not putting any pressure whatsoever) since like in pvp, players should have the freedom of enjoying alternative* playstyles

*not meme, trolldier is unquestionabily useless as an example, bison spamming wouldn't be if the weapon was good

or in less fancy words, i want to enjoy game and have the less used weapons become more usable so there's more stuff to play around with
 
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IMO you will never be able to "balance out" metafagging. There will always be a perceived "best way of doing things"

The reality is that MvM isn't that hard. People that are the least bit good at the game mode can play pretty much whatever they want and win as long as they aren't running a meme loadout. However, if you are a blight on your team, people will expect you to run Brass Beast heavy and hold M1 the entire round so the game can progress.

Gas Passer explode on ignite should be split into 3 tiers, and spy could use a money magnet + health buff, however.
 
spy could use a money magnet + health buff
money magnet on spy is a really debatable idea since it's mostly centered on possibly worsening his already painful interactions with scout

but he should be able to get normal overheal with health on kill on all knives
 
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IMO you will never be able to "balance out" metafagging. There will always be a perceived "best way of doing things"
Yeah but there's a difference between "this is the best among good options" and "literally nothing else in this slot is worth using and there is a single upgrade path for each class." There is no reason for Scout to ever run anything other than the Mad Milk. There is never a reason to use the Gunslinger. Your upgrade path for any class will basically be the same no matter what you do.
spy could use a money magnet + health buff, however
Spy is already very powerful (as long as you use him right) and doesn't need the buff. The only changes I would make would be making the YER's instant disguise actually work, making the sapper's upgrades cheaper, making the crit on kill upgrade cheaper, and making sure that cash is automatically collected on melee kills. I'd also probably do something to buff the other invis watches, but that's not a big priority.
 
Who the fuck even plays Valve MvM anymore? It's been a solved game for at least 10 years.
Community MvM with custom maps/missions is fun; you get way more variety than with Valve MvM (I don't gamble and I never will). I especially love running Engineer with the Widowmaker in it. Spend 400 credits on firing speed, and you'll have a higher DPS than a wrangled sentry. You can also get Crit boosted for even more damage. You might miss the utility of the Rescue Ranger, but being able to be more aggressive and less reliant on your sentry for damage is a lot more fun IMO. It's also one of the best tank-busting weapon.
 
I still haven't been able to queue up for a match of Sidewinder which is a shame because it's the only map I actually wanted to try this update.
 
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