Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
Aqua Panda said:
Dumb question: Recommended 3rd level wizard spells?

About to hit 6th level. Currently have fireball and counterspell. Thinking fly or dispell magic. Maybe hypnotic pattern.
Click to expand...
Haste is a broken support spell. If you have a fighter in your group and you give them haste while they can use action surge, they are almost guaranteed to wipe the floor with just about anything you're fighting. In my friend's campaign he has made it a point to design encounters in a way that creates a delay for me getting my sorcerer close enough to put a hand on the fighter, because too many previous encounters ended in one or two rounds depending on whether I went before the fighter in initiative order.
 
Aqua Panda said:
Dumb question: Recommended 3rd level wizard spells?

About to hit 6th level. Currently have fireball and counterspell. Thinking fly or dispell magic. Maybe hypnotic pattern.
Click to expand...
Summon Nature's Ally III is a no brainer; Dire Wolves are a choice and they are both tough able able to do trip attacks on opponents. You also can act during your turn as they attack. Summoning in general is very nice to have on hand.

Fly is a good quality of life spell. Sleet Storm is a nice zone of control spell if you need to limit movement or vision. Tongues is a good support skill. Alter Fortune is a good "reroll" ability if you need it even if it costs EXP.
 
Spergetti said:
Haste is a broken support spell. If you have a fighter in your group and you give them haste while they can use action surge, they are almost guaranteed to wipe the floor with just about anything you're fighting. In my friend's campaign he has made it a point to design encounters in a way that creates a delay for me getting my sorcerer close enough to put a hand on the fighter, because too many previous encounters ended in one or two rounds depending on whether I went before the fighter in initiative order.
Click to expand...
The haste spell says when you use your extra action to attack, you only get one weapon attack... so does that preclude the "two attacks per attack action" thingy from Fighters?
 
RomanesEuntDomus said:
The haste spell says when you use your extra action to attack, you only get one weapon attack... so does that preclude the "two attacks per attack action" thingy from Fighters?
Click to expand...
Fighters aren't the only classes that get extra attacks per action, but yes Haste does not allow the target to attack multiple times with the bonus action you get from Haste. So, for a level 5 fighter who gets two attacks per actions normally, when you cast Haste on them they can take a total of three attacks on their turn (2 normal attacks + 1 from Haste action). What makes fighters especially deadly with Haste is that they can also use their Action Surge, which allows them to take another bonus action, and they can make their extra attack with that action. This means that a level 5 fighter with Haste can take five attacks in one turn (2 normal attacks + 2 from Action Surge + 1 from Haste), and then continue making 3 attacks every turn after that until the spell ends, and it gets even more silly at higher levels when they start getting even more extra attacks per action.

The other effects from the spell are also pretty useful. Getting more movement speed helps to get the full benefit of the extra attacks in case you kill an enemy in the middle of an attack action, and they get extra AC, and they get advantage on Dex saving throws. Seriously, this spell is like 3 support spells slapped onto an already really strong support spell.
 
Spergetti said:
Fighters aren't the only classes that get extra attacks per action, but yes Haste does not allow the target to attack multiple times with the bonus action you get from Haste. So, for a level 5 fighter who gets two attacks per actions normally, when you cast Haste on them they can take a total of three attacks on their turn (2 normal attacks + 1 from Haste action). What makes fighters especially deadly with Haste is that they can also use their Action Surge, which allows them to take another bonus action, and they can make their extra attack with that action. This means that a level 5 fighter with Haste can take five attacks in one turn (2 normal attacks + 2 from Action Surge + 1 from Haste), and then continue making 3 attacks every turn after that until the spell ends, and it gets even more silly at higher levels when they start getting even more extra attacks per action.

The other effects from the spell are also pretty useful. Getting more movement speed helps to get the full benefit of the extra attacks in case you kill an enemy in the middle of an attack action, and they get extra AC, and they get advantage on Dex saving throws. Seriously, this spell is like 3 support spells slapped onto an already really strong support spell.
Click to expand...
I see. Well, if it stacked with the bonus attacks, it would be even more broken. 6 attacks in one turn followed by 4 attacks for 9 turns is ludicrous.
 
Even in PF Haste is one of the better 3rd level spells. Target a number of friendlies (up to your level) and they get: +1 to attack rolls, +1 to AC, +1 to Reflex saves, up to +30 additional ground movement (can't exceed their normal move per round), and +1 attack during a full attack action.

Much like in 5E it's the last one that shines. Fighters and archer-build rangers really love adding another attack onto the front end of their full attack option (haste's extra attack is made at full BAB plus associated modifiers).

The funny part is that this is the less broken version. 3E's Haste gave you a straight-up extra standard action per round.
 
Spergetti said:
Fighters aren't the only classes that get extra attacks per action, but yes Haste does not allow the target to attack multiple times with the bonus action you get from Haste. So, for a level 5 fighter who gets two attacks per actions normally, when you cast Haste on them they can take a total of three attacks on their turn (2 normal attacks + 1 from Haste action). What makes fighters especially deadly with Haste is that they can also use their Action Surge, which allows them to take another bonus action, and they can make their extra attack with that action. This means that a level 5 fighter with Haste can take five attacks in one turn (2 normal attacks + 2 from Action Surge + 1 from Haste), and then continue making 3 attacks every turn after that until the spell ends, and it gets even more silly at higher levels when they start getting even more extra attacks per action.

The other effects from the spell are also pretty useful. Getting more movement speed helps to get the full benefit of the extra attacks in case you kill an enemy in the middle of an attack action, and they get extra AC, and they get advantage on Dex saving throws. Seriously, this spell is like 3 support spells slapped onto an already really strong support spell.
Click to expand...
This only works if the DM accepts the variant rule that allows action points to begin with, and also accepts the Eberron setting feats that let them burn their points to do this as well, since AP originally was only used as a way to add to rolls or use feats or something like that. Also last I checked you only get one more free attack by burning two AP to do it. Even then a Fighter still is more shit at doing what a simple Barb does until you finish all the weapon specialization feats.

Haste is still great though, because it does still bolster movement speed and does give that free hit to all party members.
 
Adamska said:
This only works if the DM accepts the variant rule that allows action points to begin with, and also accepts the Eberron setting feats that let them burn their points to do this as well, since AP originally was only used as a way to add to rolls or use feats or something like that. Also last I checked you only get one more free attack by burning two AP to do it. Even then a Fighter still is more shit at doing what a simple Barb does until you finish all the weapon specialization feats.

Haste is still great though, because it does still bolster movement speed and does give that free hit to all party members.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same edition of D&D. From what I understand, the way I've described how Haste and attack actions work is just the normal way it works in 5e. I could be wrong, but I think we've gotten wires crossed here.
 
Spergetti said:
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same edition of D&D. From what I understand, the way I've described how Haste and attack actions work is just the normal way it works in 5e. I could be wrong, but I think we've gotten wires crossed here.
Click to expand...
Yeah, sounds like you guys are talking about different things.

Either way, putting Haste on the Greataxe Berserker is just fun. Does the encounter hinge on the enemies being bolstered by one or two squishy casters near the back? Well, not anymore! Put haste on the level 6+ Barbarian and watch him julienne that necromancer.
 
Spergetti said:
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same edition of D&D. From what I understand, the way I've described how Haste and attack actions work is just the normal way it works in 5e. I could be wrong, but I think we've gotten wires crossed here.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, 5e does them differently.

I was confused because fighters suck in 3.5e, but they do get AP in some splats in them. Meanwhile, they are one of the best classes in 5e by far. I wasn't aware which edition you were talking about.
 
Adamska said:
Oh yeah, 5e does them differently.

I was confused because fighters suck in 3.5e, but they do get AP in some splats in them. Meanwhile, they are one of the best classes in 5e by far. I wasn't aware which edition you were talking about.
Click to expand...
They deal tons of damage, but they are a bit of a drag to play, since the most interesting thing about combat is to pick your targets in the correct order...
Is there a way to spice things up a little? Anything decent to multiclass into? 2 Levels of Ranger might be worth a shot, but it feels like it takes away too much progress from the Fighter thingy, so I dunno if it's worth it.

Hunter's Mark and that Thorn spell look pretty sweet, though.
 
Last edited:
RomanesEuntDomus said:
Is there a way to spice things up a little?
Click to expand...
From my experience, it's all down to encounter design and the additional items your character is carrying.

Encounter design obviously relies on the GM being a bit creative. Besides allowing for more creative maneuvers like the old standard of swinging from chandeliers, having different levels on the terrain so the fighter can stand on a chokepoint and say "fuck you" to everybody is a good start. Or allowing for shove actions to throw enemies off ledges. Having the encounter rely on more mechanics than just "kill them before they kill you" also helps. One encounter design trope my GM likes using is to have a regular threat that can be disabled by a character interacting with it (in a way that can't be done with Mage Hand). Shutting doors to block reinforcements, shuttering murderholes things like that. Yes, the other melee characters can also do it, but the fighter/barbarian can take hits better on the way to/back from it, and the amount of damage "wasted" is lower compared to the rogue doing it.

As for items, it does depend on whether your GM allows for a more narrative combat as opposed to treating all the NPCs as mindless drones. A bag of ball bearings or caltrops can really help shape and control the field. A hunting trap concealed under some debris is a great way to spring an ambush on a patrol. A flask of oil (or greek fire if your GM allows it to be self-igniting) setting a bandit on fire can help disorganize and demoralize the rest of the gang (also great for throwing into Kobold murderholes to get them to scurry out and stop shooting). Grappling with and putting manacles on a fleeing opponent will give you someone to interrogate.... things like that.

Sure, it might not be the most efficient way to play, what with the Action Economy and the damage race ultimately ruling over the game... but I personally find it more fun and satisfying to do more than just "I move and then I hit him with my axe" every turn. It does rely on a GM that sees combat as more than just numbers and mechanics, though, and I'm fortunate to have one of those.
 
Last edited:
Corn Flakes said:
From my experience, it's all down to encounter design and the additional items your character is carrying.

Encounter design obviously relies on the GM being a bit creative. Besides allowing for more creative maneuvers like the old standard of swinging from chandeliers, having different levels on the terrain so the fighter can stand on a chokepoint and say "fuck you" to everybody is a good start. Or allowing for shove actions to throw enemies off ledges. Having the encounter rely on more mechanics than just "kill them before they kill you" also helps. One encounter design trope my GM likes using is to have a regular threat that can be disabled by a character interacting with it (in a way that can't be done with Mage Hand). Shutting doors to block reinforcements, shuttering murderholes things like that. Yes, the other melee characters can also do it, but the fighter/barbarian can take hits better on the way to/back from it, and the amount of damage "wasted" is lower compared to the rogue doing it.

As for items, it does depend on whether your GM allows for a more narrative combat as opposed to treating all the NPCs as mindless drones. A bag of ball bearings or caltrops can really help shape and control the field. A hunting trap concealed under some debris is a great way to spring an ambush on a patrol. A flask of oil (or greek fire if your GM allows it to be self-igniting) setting a bandit on fire can help disorganize and demoralize the rest of the gang (also great for throwing into Kobold murderholes to get them to scurry out and stop shooting). Grappling with and putting manacles on a fleeing opponent will give you someone to interrogate.... things like that.

Sure, it might not be the most efficient way to play, what with the Action Economy and the damage race ultimately ruling over the game... but I personally find it more fun and satisfying to do more than just "I move and then I hit him with my axe" every turn. It does rely on a GM that sees the combat as more than just numbers, though, and I'm fortunate to have one.
Click to expand...
Well we've had a bit of a mixed bag with that. Some really fun encounters and some which made me essentially worthless.
Best encounter was a fight with a Vampire and a Werewolf next to a pit with a 5m drop, I used my shield to constantly knock both enemies into the pit the moment they tried to attack.
Worst encounter was a teleporting enemy that changed locations to places out of my movement-range.

Overall, it's not terrible, I guess I just wouldn't mind being a bit more versatile and Ranger comes with a few neat perks come level 2, but as I said: I miss out on 2 Fighter levels. I am level 7 btw, so next would be Ability Score Improvement and Indomitable, which are pretty juicy.
 
RomanesEuntDomus said:
Well we've had a bit of a mixed bag with that. Some really fun encounters and some which made me essentially worthless.
Best encounter was a fight with a Vampire and a Werewolf next to a pit with a 5m drop, I used my shield to constantly knock both enemies into the pit the moment they tried to attack.
Worst encounter was a teleporting enemy that changed locations to places out of my movement-range.

Overall, it's not terrible, I guess I just wouldn't mind being a bit more versatile and Ranger comes with a few neat perks come level 2, but as I said: I miss out on 2 Fighter levels. I am level 7 btw, so next would be Ability Score Improvement and Indomitable, which are pretty juicy.
Click to expand...
Silly side note: Athletics, which is now the skill to initiate grapples, is a class skill for fighters. If you're already a Str-based beatstick, start putting fools in chokeholds.

The last large campaign I was in, our DM learned rather quickly that "I'm going to grab it" is a legitimate threat from a mid-level fighter with 16 Str. Doubly so when I kept dragging a squishy wizard boss into a flame wall, because I could tank that shit a lot better than he could.
 
Mooger Meng said:
Silly side note: Athletics, which is now the skill to initiate grapples, is a class skill for fighters. If you're already a Str-based beatstick, start putting fools in chokeholds.

The last large campaign I was in, our DM learned rather quickly that "I'm going to grab it" is a legitimate threat from a mid-level fighter with 16 Str. Doubly so when I kept dragging a squishy wizard boss into a flame wall, because I could tank that shit a lot better than he could.
Click to expand...
I'm playing a Dwarf with Strength 18 and proficiency in Athletics. I have successfully grappled and toppled a Devil Bough using my ridiculous Strength. And you better believe, as I tore that motherfucker to the ground, that Dwarf was shouting "Timber" at the top of his lungs.
 
SheerHeartAttack said:
Well finished the campaign. We finished with a character death, one of the characters becoming nobility and the rest gearing to kick the killer's ass. Though, I wrapped up the campaign early because half of the players have become increasingly unavailable and the main story had been wrapped up at this point. Now I'm brainstorming the next campaign.
Click to expand...

Hexploration on a Jungle island...with skaven pirates, korean dwarves, council of wyrms, a devil of Wrath, and a mashup of King Kong meets Jurassic Park.
 
Weird 3.5e question about types and templates (I may or may not be trying to build a big bad character here)

Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror has a level 20 capstone that turns the Dread Necromancer into a lich, changing their type to Undead. The Dragon Disciple prestige class has a level 10 capstone that grants the Half-Dragon template. The catch I'm seeing with this is that the DN's lich transformation ability states that if the character is not humanoid, they do not get to become a lich. Would a level 10 Dragon Disciple qualify as humanoid? Does a template override that? I can't seem to find an explicit answer one way or the other regarding SPECIFICALLY the Dragon Disciple PrC's handling of the template.
 
Homoerotic Cougar-kun said:
Weird 3.5e question about types and templates (I may or may not be trying to build a big bad character here)

Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror has a level 20 capstone that turns the Dread Necromancer into a lich, changing their type to Undead. The Dragon Disciple prestige class has a level 10 capstone that grants the Half-Dragon template. The catch I'm seeing with this is that the DN's lich transformation ability states that if the character is not humanoid, they do not get to become a lich. Would a level 10 Dragon Disciple qualify as humanoid? Does a template override that? I can't seem to find an explicit answer one way or the other regarding SPECIFICALLY the Dragon Disciple PrC's handling of the template.
Click to expand...
IIRC, Half-Dragon changes the creature type to Dragon, so... no, you don't get to turn the guy into a Lich.

On the other hand, if it's an NPC (and Big Bads usually are) you can just waive that rule in this case just for the flavor. Maybe override the Dragon type with Undead, just for consistency. Have the most recently-applied type template be the one that counts.
 
Corn Flakes said:
IIRC, Half-Dragon changes the creature type to Dragon, so... no, you don't get to turn the guy into a Lich.

On the other hand, if it's an NPC (and Big Bads usually are) you can just waive that rule in this case just for the flavor. Maybe override the Dragon type with Undead, just for consistency. Have the most recently-applied type template be the one that counts.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I decided to look at the rules for Dracoliches and decided "you know, fuck it, I'll just say the DN capstone involved making the relevant materials/phylactery for a Dragon-type NPC so they're a Half-Dracolich" so it even (sort of) makes sense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom