Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Dunsparce]

Hell, the Adept, an NPC class, is considered stronger than all of the Core martial classes even with its very slow and limited level 0-5 spell list. Casting is that good in 3.5

 

[Adamska]

As for caster supremacy, I do have things in mind to mitigate it. Firstly, I'm going to ban mages

All that does is highlight the disparity more and make it much harder for characters to not die in a blender unless you delve the arcane tomes to find the Book of Weeabo fightin' magic (Tome of Battle). You banned the only ways to aid martials easily, heal them in any way (since potions can only be made by casters), and do crowd control at all, which means mobs are going to crush them.

I've played and tried to do low magic settings where casters are banned; it usually sucks.

because there's nowhere in the setting for them to learn - most arcane knowledge has been lost in the apocalypse and there are certainly no formal places of learning to gain levels in it (for the same reason I'm going to ban 3.5e's rather overpowered monk).

U wot m8?

Monks are trash; they have mediocre BaB, they don't get magic (unlike their buddy that does their thing the ranger), they need four stats to be functional, you need to know which abilities are actually useful and which ones aren't since most of them suck, and monk basically is done as a class by level 6.

Let me explain it like this: the monk needs CON, since their d8 hd is mediocre for a frontliner. They need STR, because they really need it to make it more likely they can hit and do damage, since their fists are eh damage wise. They need DEX, because they don't get armor. Lastly, they need WIS, since their abilities and fake armor needs it.

As for sorcerors, casting innate spells in a place with unstable background magic could lead to all sorts of unpleasant consequences (wild surges, mutation, possession) so I think I can reign their power in a bit, or at least make it come with a price. Plus there are factions in the setting that really fucking hate sorcerors.

That's just asking for a player to just ditch out if you try and punish them for wanting to play a caster. Either that or abuse your radiation rules alongside the party to TPK and yeet your campaign.

 

[Techpriest]

Great info, thanks buddy.

I have vague memories of playing in a couple of WHFRP campaigns in the distant past and disliking the system at the time (I accidentally created a ridiculously overpowered character without meaning to and the GM forcibly nerfed him to avoid breaking the campaign, which was a shitty, annoying solution to a shitty, annoying problem), plus as you say it would take a lot of work to de-Warham the setting to the one I've got in mind. I'll take another look but I'm edging away from that on my past experiences, plus I've never DM'd it and even as a player it was a very long time ago. Never used GUIRPS or WoD either, though my brother is an experienced GM in the latter so I'll ask his opinion.

Having looked about on Ebay and the like, the supply of original 3.5 material is not as high as I was led to believe, at least in the UK. I probably could cobble together the core rulebooks and some useful splatbooks (the splatbooks are actually easier to find because they're in less demand) but it might be a bit of an ask of all my players to do the same when there are only ever 2-3 PHBs on sale at any one time in the entire country. Maybe I'll have to get some pirated material, at least for them, or some de-DnD'ified D20 core rules books to get them started if they don't know the system already.

I'm not too keen to move too far from 3.5e simply because it's the system I have the most experience of running and I don't want to be learning a new system from scratch at the same time that I'm taking the players through a rather hardcore and complex campaign. I think adapting to 5e or Pathfinder will pose less of a risk of my fucking up and wrecking the campaign with a bad call and let us spend more time playing rather than figuring out the rules.

As for caster supremacy, I do have things in mind to mitigate it. Firstly, I'm going to ban mages because there's nowhere in the setting for them to learn - most arcane knowledge has been lost in the apocalypse and there are certainly no formal places of learning to gain levels in it (for the same reason I'm going to ban 3.5e's rather overpowered monk). As for sorcerors, casting innate spells in a place with unstable background magic could lead to all sorts of unpleasant consequences (wild surges, mutation, possession) so I think I can reign their power in a bit, or at least make it come with a price. Plus there are factions in the setting that really fucking hate sorcerors.

I'll take a closer look at Pathfinder again, see what exactly the differences are and whether I need to think again.

Lots to think about, thanks again.

If you’re going to mitigate caster supremacy you need to just ignore 3.5 and pathfinder all together. Just use GURPS, CoD, or anything else

 

[That Guy George]

even 5e is better than 3.5 when it comes to Caster B.S. and even there monk is often considered one of the least good classes

 

[Techpriest]

even 5e is better than 3.5 when it comes to Caster B.S. and even there monk is often considered one of the least good classes

Monks are absolutely fucked in pretty much every edition of D&D. Pathfinder monks are still fucked too by the way, just sliiiightly less fucked.

 

[OhGoy]

In reality, there are actually many ways to make a non-shitty monk character in 3.5. Here are a few:

• Take a feat that allows your monk levels and the levels of some other class to stack for the purposes of determining how strong your monk abilities are (Tashalatora, any of the "Ascetic" feats, etc.)
• Prestige class into something with decent class features that simultaneously progresses your monk abilities (Sacred Fist, Shadow Sun Ninja, etc.)
• Play any non-monk class and take Superior Unarmed Strike and possibly even Snap Kick, then simply give your character monk fluff
• Play a Battle Dancer

The best way to play a monk, though, is this:

1. Locate a copy of the Player's Handbook for 3.5
2. Burn it
3. Curse the being known as Monte Cook for making martials so shit in 3.5
4. ???
5. Locate a copy of the Tome of Battle
6. Spoiler

   Play a fucking swordsage (optionally with the unarmed swordsage adaptation) instead

In other words, the best way to play a monk is to either take a small handful of monk levels or to just not take any monk levels at all. You could argue that you technically aren't a monk if you use any of this and that it's also "cheating" as the monk class itself only plays a very minor (or completely non-existent) part in everything up top... but at the same time I don't give a shit. Even if it can be argued that you aren't really a true monk and that you're "cheating" if you do any of the above stuff, I'd still much rather try any of this than, god forbid, take a full 20 levels of monk.

Not even Pun-Pun can save you from your fate if you decide to take a full 20 levels of monk.

> monk
> 3.5
> overpowered

bruh if you think monk is broken just wait until you see the swordsage

 

[Where Do You Find Them?]

Reading you loud and clear: don't play monk under any circumstances.

I was thinking of running a 3.5 game myself in a few months for a group of wargamers. Personally I prefer more story and character based games so I'm gonna focus on investigation, intrigue and espionage as a nice middle ground where they still have fairly clear objectives but it's not just a dungeon dive. DnD probably isn't the best system for that sort of thing but the group know it well. It should be fairly mechanics light for most of it but I'll throw in some bandits and assassins to keep the wargamer bloodlust satiated.

I'm already going to be making some changes to suit the plot and the tone of the setting (e.g. no alignments, no planes). One of the big changes (and central to the plot) is that background magic levels are a thing and this seems a good way to tone down the OP bullshit of casters. Especially as there will be plenty of time for them to rest between each fight. Problem is that while I've read the rules I don't really know much about DnD. I know that it's only with the higher level spells that casters get really silly. So while I'd like to let them keep their incredibly powerful stuff I want them to have to spend time and effort setting it up. This is a rough idea of what I'm thinking at the moment:

Spoiler

Every area has a background level of magic, this will usually be between 10 and 15 units. Areas with large amounts of greenery (e.g. fields and forests) are on the lower end of that range while desolate areas are higher. The level raises sharply as one approaches the edge of the world. Sentient minds being in an area with a lot of background magic causes spontaneous magical effects, usually making their worst nightmares come true. Any drain to the level of magic in an area will eventually refill but this is a slow process. All spellcasters can sense the level of magic around them.

Casting a spell costs the spell's level squared in magical energy in addition to the normal spell slot. Spellcasters are divided into 4 categories for where that energy comes from: Wizard-like, sorcerer-like, cleric-like and druid-like.

Wizards cast directly from the area around them. The 5 foot tile they're in and each surrounding tile loses an amount equal to the cost of the spell. If there isn't enough energy in any of the tiles the spell has a reduced effect at the DMs discretion depending on how much is missing from how many tiles.

Sorcerers cast from an internal pool. They can meditate for a round to add 1d6 points to this pool, which is taken from the tiles around them. This counts as casting a spell for the purposes of AoO and concentration checks for failure. If they have more than their caster level of points in their pool they bleed away at a rate of 1 per round.

Wizards/sorcerers get a new first level spell that allows them to push magical energy around. They can push a 15' square of their caster levels worth of energy within a 15' range up to 30' distance. The range restriction only applies to where they move it from, not too.

Clerics do not drain magical energy to cast like arcane casters do, however they require a high level of magical energy (2*spell cost) around them before they can cast. Clerics can consecrate a 15' square around themselves in order to increase the amount of magical energy there by 1d20. The consecrated area is now sealed preventing energy from being moved into, out of or through it or for being used for any other purpose than casting spells of that deity. If an unconsecrated (i.e. anyone/thing that isn't a priest of that deity) being enters that area then the effect ends and the energy disappears.

Druids drain the magic around them in the same way wizards do. They can meditate (same AoO rules as for a sorcerer) for a round to draw up energy from the earth and increase the amount of magic in the tiles around them by their caster level. Likewise they can push energy back into the earth and decrease the level around them.

So yeah, thoughts? Opinions? The most retarded thing you've ever seen?

My aim is to prevent them from being able to cast high level spells without some preparation. Most fights they'll either have to stick to low level spells or spend time gathering energy, potentially for many turns for very high level spells. I also want to control their movement somewhat and provide options for others to screw them over. I'm not worried about keeping track of the levels on each tile, some creative use of dice should make that easy.

It might be better just to throw all of this out and use a different system.

 

[Adamska]

I don't get the revived caster hate and deciding to cripple those guys that can really help martials get going. A barbarian's best friend, besides their axe, is an Abjuration specialist who must now ChArGe HiS sPeLl. A frontliner cries for a healer as they spend x amount of rounds GaThErInG tHeIr ChAkRa to actually build up a good healing spell. Also you forgot how to screw over the Ranger and Bard, since both of them are dickass wizards too.

I say this as a dude who favors playing martials (big fan of playing Warblades or Crusaders) or semi-casters like the Duskblade or the Paladin.

 

[Horus]

In reality, there are actually many ways to make a non-shitty monk character in 3.5. Here are a few:

• Take a feat that allows your monk levels and the levels of some other class to stack for the purposes of determining how strong your monk abilities are (Tashalatora, any of the "Ascetic" feats, etc.)
• Prestige class into something with decent class features that simultaneously progresses your monk abilities (Sacred Fist, Shadow Sun Ninja, etc.)
• Play any non-monk class and take Superior Unarmed Strike and possibly even Snap Kick, then simply give your character monk fluff
• Play a Battle Dancer

The best way to play a monk, though, is this:

1. Locate a copy of the Player's Handbook for 3.5
2. Burn it
3. Curse the being known as Monte Cook for making martials so shit in 3.5
4. ???
5. Locate a copy of the Tome of Battle
6. Spoiler

   Play a fucking swordsage (optionally with the unarmed swordsage adaptation) instead

In other words, the best way to play a monk is to either take a small handful of monk levels or to just not take any monk levels at all. You could argue that you technically aren't a monk if you use any of this and that it's also "cheating" as the monk class itself only plays a very minor (or completely non-existent) part in everything up top... but at the same time I don't give a shit. Even if it can be argued that you aren't really a true monk and that you're "cheating" if you do any of the above stuff, I'd still much rather try any of this than, god forbid, take a full 20 levels of monk.

Not even Pun-Pun can save you from your fate if you decide to take a full 20 levels of monk.

bruh if you think monk is broken just wait until you see the swordsage

If you can get your hands on a copy of The Book of Exalted Deeds, you can stack the feats Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. Your monk might be wearing rags and begging for food out in the cold, but damn, the combat skills are OP.

 

[Adamska]

If you can get your hands on a copy of The Book of Exalted Deeds, you can stack the feats Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. Your monk might be wearing rags and begging for food out in the cold, but damn, the combat skills are OP.

Nope, those actually cripple monk because NOW you can't use magic items to help boost its mediocre attack ability or use items to heal since you never have money. And sacred vow only boosts a skill it doesn't use all that much.

GG for falling for the same sort of trap the Dwarven Defender is.

 

[Where Do You Find Them?]

A barbarian's best friend, besides their axe, is an Abjuration specialist

This is the best thing they can do for the barbarian sure, but that caster could just end the fight themselves. Something like stoneskin makes the barbarian miles better but, at the same level, something like fear or confusion just wins so long as that barbarian is awake.

actually build up a good healing spell

I think you're a very different type of player to the guys I'll be playing with. They're wargamers, they will go maximal effectiveness and that means no healing spells during combat. After level 6-8 they won't buff the melee guys either. They'll cast a save or lose spell or two and then tell the melee to clean up. Part of what I intended to do with this is make that pre-level 6 buff the melee strategy more appealing in comparison as the low level buff spells tend to be better than the CC and you can still cast those without any problems so long as you keep 5 foot stepping.

Also you forgot how to screw over the Ranger and Bard

Rangers are druid-like, bards sorcerer-like, paladins cleric-like. I forgot to list them all out but every caster fits into one of the four categories.

Edit: On reflection this gave me a good idea. I might let the cleric-like classes ignore the usual restriction for their healing spells to incentivize their use.

 

[Orion Balls]

Getting a Cavaliers of Mars game going, soon. Finally found a steady group out here in bumblefuck. Protip: Do NOT post a "Dungeon Master Looking For Party" flyer in small town stores. Despite the D&D graphics and general information being printed below the title, I still got a TON of calls from local BDSM types. Who knew so many rural folk are so kinky?

 

[Adamska]

This is the best thing they can do for the barbarian sure, but that caster could just end the fight themselves. Something like stoneskin makes the barbarian miles better but, at the same level, something like fear or confusion just wins so long as that barbarian is awake.

Those effects are some of the first you can ignore though... like, fear can be defeated at level one. I don't think you or your players really get how the magic works if they're actually using fear effect spells and think those are good. Color Spray or Sleep are superior save or sucks, and even then I'd prefer grease over it. Confusion is a better spell, but by that point you have critters with spell resistance that can hold on those since the earliest you can get it is level 5, where you get into your roles and where monsters start to build up magic resistance.

I think you're a very different type of player to the guys I'll be playing with. They're wargamers, they will go maximal effectiveness and that means no healing spells during combat. After level 6-8 they won't buff the melee guys either.

And they call themselves good casters; first they think fear effects are good and debuffing is good, and then they don't do buffing because they just unlocked fireball or some other twee spell. Especially silly if they're playing clerics or Bards, because that is what they DO.

They'll cast a save or lose spell or two and then tell the melee to clean up.

Unless they can pull Destruction or Impending Implosion out of their keister (so far later in the game) and can casually raise their caster DC to a high degree, then it's very doable to ignore a save or suck spell based on monster since they have to beat their Spell Resistance and immunities. It's why illusionists are so trash.

Are you SURE they're good at minmaxing and powergaming? Because a true dickass wizard would minionmancy the heck out of it with maximized summons using a good template and metamagic, and I don't mean necromancy given you then can't cast a spell on your own turn with those deadheads.

Part of what I intended to do with this is make that pre-level 6 buff the melee strategy more appealing in comparison as the low level buff spells tend to be better than the CC and you can still cast those without any problems so long as you keep 5 foot stepping.

Which may drive attendance down since you've now alienated those dudes who just love throwing dice pools.

Dude, just try a different game if you want to have a lower magic setting.

 

[Where Do You Find Them?]

Color Spray or Sleep are superior save or sucks

At higher levels color spray is stunned for a turn and sleep does literally nothing.

critters

Remember it's going to be intrigue and espionage rather than a dungeon haul. They'll be fighting pirates, bandits and assassins rather than monsters.

fear effects are good and debuffing is good

Yes, these are some of the best things you can be doing. Not fear effects specifically, they are on the worse side, but CC in general.

Especially silly if they're playing clerics or Bards, because that is what they DO.

Bards suck, they're just one of those bad at everything classes. Clerics buff but only either defensive buffs to prevent your opponents from using save or suck spells (and why waste those on the melee?) or buffing themselves with shit like divine power and righteous might. Clerics in particular are indicative of what's wrong with casters. They make better melee than the melee does.

it's very doable to ignore a save or suck spell based on monster

They do get to choose which save or suck spell they cast. They pick the one that doesn't get ignored. Target your opponents lowest save and you can usually get about a 75% chance of success.

a true dickass wizard would minionmancy

You know the main reason that's frowned upon is because it slows games right down rather than because of its power right? That's not to say it's not pretty powerful, it's a hell of a lot better than any melee class, but it's not optimal.

Save or [die|lose|suck] is the optimal way to play wizards/sorcerers (in straight up combat anyway). Being better at melee than the melee classes is the optimal way to play cleric/druid. All of these are OP as shit. All of these things have been the consensus for nearly 20 years now. After your first post I thought you just didn't have much experience with 3.5 but now... I dunno what to tell you. You do you I guess.

 

[Adamska]

At higher levels color spray is stunned for a turn and sleep does literally nothing.

And yet both are better than fear, which is what I was comparing them to but you chose to be disingenuous on that one. No comment on grease either, because you know that I was right on that one.

Remember it's going to be intrigue and espionage rather than a dungeon haul. They'll be fighting pirates, bandits and assassins rather than monsters.

Conveniently allowing illusionists to not suck then, got it.

Yes, these are some of the best things you can be doing. Not fear effects specifically, they are on the worse side, but CC in general.

Debuffs rarely hit entire crowds and in quite a few cases you need to set up a spectral hand since a lot of them require touch attacks, meaning at minimum you need two turns. I would know, I've played a debuffer and this was a routine problem.

Bards suck, they're just one of those bad at everything classes.

Proves you suck at playing them then, because they're very good at whatever they want to do, you just have to plan them out first.

Clerics buff but only either defensive buffs to prevent your opponents from using save or suck spells (and why waste those on the melee?) or buffing themselves with shit like divine power and righteous might.

Okay, so you like playing the war clerics that only self buff. Honestly really nuking my opinion on your group more and more because they remind me of a fellow that hated helping his peers when they needed it and who was very much the That Guy of the group. He got kicked out by the way.

Clerics in particular are indicative of what's wrong with casters. They make better melee than the melee does.

Only if they choose to do the War domain which they need to boost their BaB to full, which is more of a player issue than the class. Still takes more time to set up than just abusing Spectral Weapon tbh.

They do get to choose which save or suck spell they cast. They pick the one that doesn't get ignored. Target your opponents lowest save and you can usually get about a 75% chance of success.

Spell resistance called; it wants to remind you that you need to factor that in first before you even get that chance.

You know the main reason that's frowned upon is because it slows games right down rather than because of its power right? That's not to say it's not pretty powerful, it's a hell of a lot better than any melee class, but it's not optimal.

You've never seen a pure minionmancer that knows what they're doing at work then, got it. Because a good minionmancer can pull quite the menagerie out of their pockets. Also is how you get the most gain out of being a Wizard tbh.

Save or [die|lose|suck] is the optimal way to play wizards/sorcerers (in straight up combat anyway).

Honestly, controlling the terrain and minions I've seen are better for the most part, in and out of combat.

Being better at melee than the melee classes is the optimal way to play cleric/druid.

They aren't given you have a very good spell list that allows you to do much of the same as their wizardy buddies and you choose to just be a selfish hitbeast instead. Also you seem to only care about the war domain, which yes is very good, but there are those equally good too.

All of these are OP as shit. All of these things have been the consensus for nearly 20 years now. After your first post I thought you just didn't have much experience with 3.5 but now... I dunno what to tell you. You do you I guess.

Nice, trying to call me incompetent because you don't like your strats being criticized.

 

[That Guy George]

When someone starts to mod one of the core systems so heavily, I get confused why they use that system. If they're all wargamers, why not use another system like Warhammer fantasy battle? D&D is not really meant for army sized battles.

 

[Adamska]

When someone starts to mod one of the core systems so heavily, I get confused why they use that system. If they're all wargamers, why not use another system like Warhammer fantasy battle? D&D is not really meant for army sized battles.

You could also use Thieve's World or Modiphius' take on Conan too by the way, if you really want a low magic setting.

 

[Randall Fragg]

Just use GURPS. It’s not as complex as it’s often made out to be, and it’s so customizable that you can easily make a low magic setting without screwing around with D&D’s rules.

 

[Sable]

Just a heads up if you want a more intrigue-y game in 3.5: a lot of classes are going to be in trouble for skills.

Skills are a secondary way to interact with the world, and can be important.

A fighter for example though only has 7 class skills, and 2+Int skillpoints. You might think 'Well at least with their strength they'll be good at physical skills!' Probably not. Unless you're a high dex, light armour fighter you're going to have huge check penalties to many of the skills you're actually good at.

 

[Techpriest]

As /tg/ says, “Have you tried not playing D&D” is usually a good solution to any problems with making D&D fit withwhat you want. Trust me you can’t fix 3.5e. Don’t try.