Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[green&brown]

I'm starting to realize why most games are limited to 4 player characters.

I like the guys I'm rolling with, we shoot a lot of shit, have a lot of funny and cool moments. But it's a drag on the time for the DM to make everyone involved, and eventually a few are just gonna be left out when compared to the rest. Doesn't help that it's my first campaign and my Wizard isn't the most optimized. If I could do it all again, I'd probably go for Evocation or Divination. War Magic sounded cool, but it's kinda lame.

 

[Zhores Medvedev]

I'm starting to realize why most games are limited to 4 player characters.

I've only ever Gm'd for groups from like 6-9, its such a clusterfuck. I'd really love to have a table of like 4-5 because I feel like its a lot more engaging on the player end. I've kinda grown to enjoy it, but like if one person isn't on there shit everything comes to a crawl. Thankfully everyone I play with is cool (generally).

 

[MazonLabs Recruitment Rep]

Watched CritRole would be my guess.

Good lord, I know that'd do it for me....

 

[BONECRUSHER]

I'm doing an interest check on possibly doing a play by post on a thread on the forums, was wondering if anyone here would be interested. Theme would be superhero stuff, still haven't decided on a system.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

Do people actually multiclass though?

I've only seen it a few times, and usually it's when a capstone skill is shit or there's a very specific concept for a character. I've never seen people do exploity stuff like the mage/fighter dip to have a heavy armour caster.

Depends on the edition and the class. Generally if you're playing a class that's ridiculously front loaded you're going to multiclass, this is especially prevalent in 5e.

 

[Brain Problems]

One of my games has I think at least 3 PCs that multiclassed and it is some mega min-max bullshit but everyone is having fun so who am I to care. I can see every now and then a look on the DM's face that resembles one I've worn many-a-time: "What the fuck have I gotten myself into?"

I've complained before but the problem with even one min-maxxer is that it results in the DM skewing encounters around handling them (usually) or else they just steamroll everything or become Player One. But that results in encounters being overtuned for non-minmaxxers too.

But, like I said, everyone's having fun and there's enough of a challenge that it isn't boring. You just don't feel like you're doing as much on some turns as others.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

One of my games has I think at least 3 PCs that multiclassed and it is some mega min-max bullshit but everyone is having fun so who am I to care. I can see every now and then a look on the DM's face that resembles one I've worn many-a-time: "What the fuck have I gotten myself into?"

I've complained before but the problem with even one min-maxxer is that it results in the DM skewing encounters around handling them (usually) or else they just steamroll everything or become Player One. But that results in encounters being overtuned for non-minmaxxers too.

But, like I said, everyone's having fun and there's enough of a challenge that it isn't boring. You just don't feel like you're doing as much on some turns as others.

Min/Maxing is a zero sum game. Either no one does it or everyone does it, it can't work when only one guy is doing it.

 

[Rapier Ape]

Speaking of minmaxing I once put together the least min/maxed character ever in 3.5 around 12 years ago.
It was a trilogy of FR modules. First time DM (player of mine)
I had sourced the 3.5 Oriental Adventure handbook.
Prestiged into Mystic Theurge using the Shaman Class + Wu-Jen.
Now the Shaman is the OA equivalent of a cleric but its more of an underpowered hybrid of Monk/Cleric.
The Wu-Jen is a weeb wizard.
For domains I took divination and something else that was non combat related. It granted some ability to see and communicate with any spiritual entities.
Aka I see dead people + astral beings.
None of the granted abilities synergized from the base classes in any way.
Character was basically a walking magic dispenser.
Oh and I actually rolled 3d6 for stats instead of point buy. Im pretty sure that I couldn't cast anything above 4 - 5th level divine or arcane.
After everything was said and done though the character was about using low leveled spells from the OA handbook to cause a load of trickery.
The DM got pretty creative as well with how he handled the characters divination abilities by giving omens and such.

 

[AnOminous]

I've complained before but the problem with even one min-maxxer is that it results in the DM skewing encounters around handling them (usually) or else they just steamroll everything or become Player One.

I think the problem is if there's just one of them, for that reason. If all the players play that way, it really isn't because nobody has a huge advantage they didn't earn.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I think the problem is if there's just one of them, for that reason. If all the players play that way, it really isn't because nobody has a huge advantage they didn't earn.

It all depends on the GM. I know a couple guys who just love coming up with the cheesiest challenges he can whenever they've got a minmaxing group, but at the same time my main GM hates it. He can do it just fine, but he much prefers coming up with adventures for more balanced groups.

Of course, minmaxers are probably also to blame for things like the the absolute glut of HP you see in 5e monsters, particularly "boss" type enemies. Because if you have to account for both normal players dealing 2 x 1d10+5 damage/turn and combo monsters banging down triple-digit damage numbers when they go nova, either one side is going to see too much challenge, or the other too little.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

Of course, minmaxers are probably also to blame for things like the the absolute glut of HP you see in 5e monsters

Your players are going to minmax in 5e regardless of what they do, it's effectively baked into the system unless they do something incredibly stupid. With that said the game designers for 5e are also retarded for balancing the entire system around the number 30, because it makes monsters with an AC of more than 18 or so challenging even for high level parties and so the only way to compensate for that is to make the monsters HP tanks and/or give them way too many resistances, which still doesn't matter because they still get action economy'd to death anyways.

If you're going to DM 5e just homebrew all your own monsters, but then again good luck if you aren't an experienced DM because both 5e and 5.5 give you fuck and all for DM resources.

 

[The Mighty Bundus]

When I played pathfinder everybody would follow guides on how to min-max correctly and the DM would always throw at us monsters with a billion hp atleast 10 in physical resistance and then would grapple or swallow every round. It got really annoying after awhile.

 

[p1138]

It all depends on the GM. I know a couple guys who just love coming up with the cheesiest challenges he can whenever they've got a minmaxing group, but at the same time my main GM hates it. He can do it just fine, but he much prefers coming up with adventures for more balanced groups.

Of course, minmaxers are probably also to blame for things like the the absolute glut of HP you see in 5e monsters, particularly "boss" type enemies. Because if you have to account for both normal players dealing 2 x 1d10+5 damage/turn and combo monsters banging down triple-digit damage numbers when they go nova, either one side is going to see too much challenge, or the other too little.

No, they're not. The big monsters still don't have enough HP to deal with a bunch of minmax players going nova and actually last more than a couple of rounds. The monsters are all big sacks of HP because they don't do anything interesting.

If everyone is minmaxing, it's easy to deal with. If you've got a bunch of "normal" players and one guy doing it, you just sack-tap that guy in the min on occasion and that's easy. When it's a big problem is when it's a 50/50 split in which case the DM can and should just ask them to knock it off if they don't like dealing with it, because the DM is still a player of a game and if they aren't having fun then what's the point.

At the same time, you also don't want a system to balance around anything. Any system is going to have some guy somewhere find some optimization if the system has any amount of complexity or depth. But if you're going to try and balance for a mixmax player and "normal" players, then how do you deal with a "normal" player and a table of idiots who made shit characters? You don't.

 

[ChiliChumper]

I'm starting to realize why most games are limited to 4 player characters.

In my personal experience, 5 is the best number from a "mechanical" perspective. A party of 5 can cover all bases comfortably enough that nobody will ever feel forced to play a certain role, class, etc., which leads to a more fun experience for both sides of the table.

Nothing sucks more in a TTRPG than when you feel you have to play a certain way or adopt a certain type of playstyle because the other players are reckless morons and you have to act like a "carry." I had to play a Samurai Fighter as a "tank" because our Sorceror was a complete retard and it was agony.

You CAN make a balanced party with 4, but 5 gives that extra bit of wiggle room where you don't have to worry too hard about role optimization.

Of course, minmaxers are probably also to blame for things like the the absolute glut of HP you see in 5e monsters, particularly "boss" type enemies.

It donned on me about a year or two ago just how vicious the cycle of assholery is in TTRPGs. Dickhead GMs make minmaxxy players. The minmaxxy player joins another table and roflstomps a casual GM, motivating to become a cheesy dickhead. Repeat ad nauseum.

I am incredibly blessed and thankful the people who taught me TTRPGS were kind and had a good sense of etiquette and empathy. Nobody got their fun out of being some minmaxxed asshole. We frequently told anyone like that they were more welcome in a Warcraft raid than our table.

 

[Corn Flakes]

If you're going to DM 5e just homebrew all your own monsters, but then again good luck if you aren't an experienced DM because both 5e and 5.5 give you fuck and all for DM resources.

This was why we ended up going back into OSE and BFRP. 1 - they're way easier on our GM since so much of a good dungeoncrawl comes about as a result of rolls rather than meticulous prep, and 2 - the difference between a munchkin and a normal player is relatively narrow, even more so because no matter what the munchkin does if he's playing like an idiot his character is going to eat a Save vs. Death and he'll be rerolling anyway.

Rolling for stats, knowing not every combat opportunity needs to be taken, and not having any kind of "build" system where you plan out your character from levels 1 to 20 also does wonders to cut down on unnecessary powergaming.

It donned on me about a year or two ago just how vicious the cycle of assholery is in TTRPGs. Dickhead GMs make minmaxxy players. The minmaxxy player joins another table and roflstomps a casual GM, motivating to become a cheesy dickhead. Repeat ad nauseum.

I am incredibly blessed and thankful the people who taught me TTRPGS were kind and had a good sense of etiquette and empathy. Nobody got their fun out of being some minmaxxed asshole. We frequently told anyone like that they were more welcome in a Warcraft raid than our table.

The final 3e group I was a part of had one minmaxer, but he did it out of the love of the game and he minmaxed everybody's characters. Including the GM's. Every now and then the GM gave the guy a list of monsters, templates and characters, asked him to go through his splats, and make them as ridiculous as possible.

That campaign was downright stupid in power level, but it was good fun because everybody was on-board. Alas, I think it was lightning in a bottle. Players like our resident minmaxer are incredibly rare.

 

[Ghostse]

It all depends on the GM. I know a couple guys who just love coming up with the cheesiest challenges he can whenever they've got a minmaxing group, but at the same time my main GM hates it. He can do it just fine, but he much prefers coming up with adventures for more balanced groups.

I started out like your first GM and now am the other one.

I got bored just finding the absolute most bullshit monsters and traps to TPK my munchin murderhobo PCs. Its tiresome and usually someone will eventually lose their shit over thigns being bullshit, or the players will upend module progression or completely fuck the story.

This was why we ended up going back into OSE and BFRP. 1 - they're way easier on our GM since so much of a good dungeoncrawl comes about as a result of rolls rather than meticulous prep, and 2 - the difference between a munchkin and a normal player is relatively narrow, even more so because no matter what the munchkin does if he's playing like an idiot his character is going to eat a Save vs. Death and he'll be rerolling anyway.

Rolling for stats, knowing not every combat opportunity needs to be taken, and not having any kind of "build" system where you plan out your character from levels 1 to 20 also does wonders to cut down on unnecessary powergaming.

Same. The only way you and really munchkin in OSE is by getting magical items, those you get by adventuring, so they earned it. And if they do start some bullshit, even a lvl 14 only has so much HP.

 

[The Mighty Bundus]

I am incredibly blessed and thankful the people who taught me TTRPGS were kind and had a good sense of etiquette and empathy. Nobody got their fun out of being some minmaxxed asshole. We frequently told anyone like that they were more welcome in a Warcraft raid than our table.

Fuck man, my first DM did 7 -8+ hour long sessions from like 8 to 1 in the morning where half of it was him just talking for a good two or three hours and then combat where we didn't even get gold coins after. Then more dialogue that didn't even matter because the ending was scripted and there was nothing we could do to change it. I'm getting green with envy man. I don't know what Critical Role is but after constantly hearing how bad it was and then finally looking it up I think that was the best way to describe it, minus the production value. Nigger didn't even let us go to merchants when we entered towns. It was entirely scripted, I'm getting MATI just remembering.

 

[p1138]

Fuck man, my first DM did 7 -8+ hour long sessions from like 8 to 1 in the morning where half of it was him just talking for a good two or three hours and then combat where we didn't even get gold coins after. Then more dialogue that didn't even matter because the ending was scripted and there was nothing we could do to change it. I'm getting green with envy man. I don't know what Critical Role is but after constantly hearing how bad it was and then finally looking it up I think that was the best way to describe it, minus the production value. Nigger didn't even let us go to merchants when we entered towns. It was entirely scripted, I'm getting MATI just remembering.

Railroading is one thing, this fucking guy just needs to go write a book.

 

[anti SJW]

Hear me out.

Healing potion mimic.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Same. The only way you and really munchkin in OSE is by getting magical items, those you get by adventuring, so they earned it.

And there are more ways for them to lose magical items. Between having to sell stuff for cold hard cash, disintegration having a chance to affect magical items, falling into bottomless pits, or simply having to run the hell away and leave the dead behind when a fight goes pear-shaped, the party isn't likely to be able to hold on to every single +1 Fork of Soup-Eating they find along the campaign.