Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Judge Dredd]

if there are viable alternatives to the level/XP systems (and it sounds like there are a few) then I am interested for the sake of my players.

There's also different types of levels.

Sorry to keep bringing up Savage Worlds, but in that game every 4 levels is a tier of play. Best way I can think to describe it is power levels for super heroes. Daredevil isn't going to be fighting Galactus, and Superman isn't going to fighting purse snatchers. Savage Worlds gates feats by tier, which also sets the tone for what they mean. At Legendary tier, you can have groups of minions following you around, and can make enemies re-roll attacks. Meanwhile at notice tier, you can do things like hold your drink better than most or have a pet.

if they don't get the XP/reward they feel entitled to, claim that the GM is unfairly stifling their progress.

You can extend this with stalling tactics.

I said one problem with Savage Worlds is people max out their combat skill then don't know what to do. To help combat this, I put a cap on skills at the start. When I house ruled a point buy system for Knave, I had caps at creation to stop people from putting all their points into strength or dex or wisdom.


I worry about being either too stingy or too generous with items, so I started using some advice I read somewhere of giving my players unusual consumables and situational items. Mechanically these are just potions and spell scrolls, but they are items. Like a golden statue that can make someone walk through stone once, then it disappears. That way they can use it to break 1 scene, or can just sell it if they lack imagination or really need the money. It's also unwieldy unlike a ring or scroll so it's not something they throw in a bag and forget.

A favourite was a coin that gave advantage on a roll, but the next two rolls would have disadvantage. Simple choice with simple consequences, but doesn't break the game.

These are clearly rewards, but they aren't the mechanical growth in power. But they require players who have imagination to use them.

Something I'm doing currently to fill out loot hordes with side grades so they're still finding new stuff, but it's not the straight up power creep of +1, +2, +3. etc


As for being unfair to your players. I've never really had a problem with this as long as I was up front. I even give my players some spoilers for co-operation, especially for one shots. "You'll be playing X, the scenario is Y, and you have to agree to person Zs demands."

 

[Not Who You Think]

Meanwhile at notice tier, you can do things like hold your drink better than most or have a pet.

Had a pet once when playing Symbaroum. I was a goblin and my pet was a Tricklestring Spider that had a harness so I could wear my giant spider like a backpack to climb up walls or do a combined bite/dagger attack. My first and only pet in a TTRPG.

No worries about bringing up Savage Worlds. There are definitely some aspects that I like even if I don't stick to their set of rules. I've run a few small games for kids of people I know with their parents, so for them, simple is better.

To help combat this, I put a cap on skills at the start. When I house ruled a point buy system for Knave, I had caps at creation to stop people from putting all their points into strength or dex or wisdom.

Caps are great for giving players a sense of proportion and direction for how to invest their skill points.

A favourite was a coin that gave advantage on a roll, but the next two rolls would have disadvantage. Simple choice with simple consequences, but doesn't break the game.

These are clearly rewards, but they aren't the mechanical growth in power. But they require players who have imagination to use them.

That coin idea is clever. A simple tradeoff that benefits from forethought. Well done!

As for being unfair to your players. I've never really had a problem with this as long as I was up front. I even give my players some spoilers for co-operation, especially for one shots. "You'll be playing X, the scenario is Y, and you have to agree to person Zs demands."

Thankfully, I haven't had players tell me they've felt cheated or railroaded in my games. As long as they are being consistently engaged they tend to naturally follow the plot. Early on I had a player's PC slowly burn to death over a couple of hilarious unfortunate rolls, but it was the end of the session so he wasn't really left on the sidelines and had plenty of time to make a new character before the next session.

I would say my biggest concern would be systems that are too complicated/intimidating for my players or systems that are so chaotic that a player is inevitably sidelined. It could be because they either died prematurely, other players rolled extremely well, or they just otherwise weren't able to contribute to the story. I mean, if it happens then it happens, but at least I tried.

So, rather than undermine an excellent (yet experience-breaking) roll by one player just so another can participate, I try to use rulesets and scenarios that are more balanced from the outset to keep as many players engaged as possible and off their cell phones.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

Ohh I had that happen in one of my games based off fallout I wasn't the GM but the days kept rolling for instant death for the critical results and one of our players literally lost 4 characters in four sessions it wasn't because the DM was being * **** it was just because it was unlucky and then we ended up nuking the entire city because everyone failed all of the disarm checks to stop the nuclear reactor from melting down and then we destroyed the entire campaign because of that

also every single game with hand grenades always ends up with someone blowing someone else up

a good way I found of dealing with the level experience system is to use milestones so everyone's pretty even just in case people miss sessions because it happens

 

[Battlefield2142EU]

Consider the following. Digital focus will cause a TTRPG crash. Read up on the history of ICE and HARP early digital support during the week the early 2000s. PDFs make piracy easier and PDF sharing killed ICE when they integrated them with HARP in the early 2003. I am stunned Hasbro haven’t told WOTC to cutdown on PDF support. WOTC started losing money a big time once they started to focus on digital over physical books. D&D beyond APP and website are easy to exploit for free downloads.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Has anyone here come across a decent system that doesn't use an XP/levelling system for character progression?

Specifically looking for ones where PCs would advance through getting better gear, items that provide a permanent/temporary stat boost, or more natural means of acquiring skills/abilities rather than relying a numbered XP/levelling system.

Essentially, I am looking for simple ways to keep gameplay more balanced for prolonged periods without constant rebalancing for levels. PC levels and their associated increases can lead to GMs needing to counterbalance with stronger opposition to maintain tension.

As others have said, Call of Cthulhu is basically built the way you are asking.

Other than that though, there is also All Flesh Must Be Eaten, which was built using the Unisystem. It was designed with running games in a zombie apocalypse in mind, but later books opened it up to other settings and fighting other monsters. There are no character classes or levels per se. Its somewhat similar to the WOD/COD games in that you have like five basic attributes. You are given a pool of points to put into these base line attributes, but you can only put between 1-5 points in them, with 3 being the human average, and 5 being the human maximum, meant for those who were the human apex in that area. You didn't have to spend all of the points.

After that, you picked Qualities and Drawbacks. Qualities gave you certain basic boons that your character started with and were fundamental to their background, while drawbacks were the opposite. A quality could be that you started out rich, while a drawback would be that you started out poor. Its similar to other systems you've probably seen, and you could only take a certain number of points in either area. Drawbacks would give you points to use in the next section, or that could be used to buy extra qualities or increase a base attribute.

Then you got to the final section, which was your skills. This worked differently from say, Dungeons and Dragons or WOD. You didn't put points into predefined skill charts, like in those games. The books listed the skills, or you could create one whole cloth, and then you put as many points as you were willing to spend. Once again, you were given a predefined pool of points to work with, plus any points from the previous sections that you didn't use. Some skills only required a certain number of points, like one or two. Others had a range, based on your level of mastery, like firearms. Some, once again like firearms, were intentionally broad, and you had to specify in what area of that skill you mastered in. The number of points you had in a skill determined how many points you could add to a dice roll pertaining to that skill (alongside any attribute or quality that would also add to the roll, and minus any drawback that would take it away).

It is an extremely simple and a highly modular system. There are no levels, or classes, as you would see in a traditional RPG. Each merit, drawback, attribute, and skill had to bought separately, then increased separately (qualities and drawbacks had to be gained, and lost, organically after play started, and some couldn't be gained past character creation, because they were inherent). Points for increasing such were hard to come by and limited, such that you might raise one attribute in an entire long campaign, and never raise an attribute at all in a shorter one. Because of this, characters are extremely balanced against both each other, and whatever threats they face. Combat is highly lethal, and even basic enemies will never stop being a threat. Your toughness was largely determined by your gear and kit, and even that isn't guaranteed to save you if the dice don't favor you or you play like an idiot.

I am stunned Hasbro haven’t told WOTC to cutdown on PDF support.

They haven't done this because they know it would cause a massive backlash and probably kill off the game faster. Many people (probably most) simply do not buy physical books anymore. Removing PDF support is cutting off their nose to spite their face. And it wouldn't stop piracy anyway because scanners are a thing and were in fact how people pirated older books before companies made regular PDF releases.

 

[AnOminous]

Ohh I had that happen in one of my games based off fallout I wasn't the GM but the days kept rolling for instant death for the critical results and one of our players literally lost 4 characters in four sessions it wasn't because the DM was being * **** it was just because it was unlucky and then we ended up nuking the entire city because everyone failed all of the disarm checks to stop the nuclear reactor from melting down and then we destroyed the entire campaign because of that

I had one of my longest running CoC campaigns end because they brought along the magic guy with all the Call/Summon/Bind spells and he was already marginal and lost his mind and decided Call Azathoth was a good idea (the situation was desperate but it was the result of a "cast random spell" mechanic I had for mind-loss events). Oops.

(I should note if you don't know OG CoC that there were Summon/Bind spell combos where you could summon something, but without the bind spell, it would just do what it ordinarily would do, which is usually kill you. Bind would let you control it. But the call spells would just drag whatever it was to your location and then it would do whatever it felt like since it wasn't controllable. And Azathoth is just a mindless nuclear chaos.)

This basically ended the world. I offered to continue the campaign with a world where the Great Old Ones had returned and the pitiful remnants of humanity scrabbled for survival. You can imagine the response, basically "lmao go fuck yourself."

 

[Not Who You Think]

Other than that though, there is also All Flesh Must Be Eaten

This looks very promising. Thanks for the recommendation!

Side note, the demo pdf I found had this in it:



Only game I've come across where being a particular race is a net negative. A very unique approach.

 

[Ghostse]

Consider the following. Digital focus will cause a TTRPG crash. Read up on the history of ICE and HARP early digital support during the week the early 2000s. PDFs make piracy easier and PDF sharing killed ICE when they integrated them with HARP in the early 2003. I am stunned Hasbro haven’t told WOTC to cutdown on PDF support. WOTC started losing money a big time once they started to focus on digital over physical books. D&D beyond APP and website are easy to exploit for free downloads.

Counter point to this is 3.5e -> 4e, Pathfinder, and 4e->5e

3.5e had a widely available SRD; it was possible to play the game with just the SRD, it was possible to use the SRD to make your own game, and it was wildly popular. Wizards never got one red cent from the SRD, they got paid because everything was SRD compatible and it made it easy to get people into TTRPG with zero commitment.

4e's SRD was garbage. It was design document with some general concepts. It wasn't playable and turning the SRD in a playable game was pretty much making a new game. You needed the books to play. The PDFs cost as much as physical, and they were pirated and Wizards pulled them/stopped making more and that tanked 4e. 4e's player base really shrunk - granted not all of that was digital, but no SRD makes it really hard to entice new players, one of the reasons the PDFs were so heavily pirated.

Contrast with Pathfinder where Pozzo did everything to make it available for zero cost, except for using a Russian botnet to forcibly upload the hypertext version of the play rules to every computer in America, and that system is probably #2 behind 5e as the RPG with the most people who played it. And Pozzo isn't in danger of running out of money.

When wizards went to 5e, they re-implemented a 3.5e style SRD. It was arguably MORE complete than the 3.5e SRD given that the 3.5e SRD had some places where it was "Check your reference for dealing with X" but the SRD didn't cover X, only the PHB/DMG did (exp/starting wealth being a big one). It was generally not meant to be human readable and only for publishers to pick, choose, and check compatibility. 5e really reduced that, and it was nearly as good as the PHB. And 5e is popular and profitable.

The problem isn't digital. The problem is that WotC doesn't make anything worth paying for anymore.
If you give people a quality product gratis, and provide an easy method for them to give you money for things related to that product, you will make more money than if you charged for it.

see: The recording industry in the 90/00s making more money AFTER Napster/Limewire/AudioGalaxy made MP3s free than before.

Me, personally, I probably wouldn't have gotten into TTRPG if the SRD hadn't been free, allowing me to join my first game with zero cost.

 

[Mexican_Wizard_711]

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Consider the following. Digital focus will cause a TTRPG crash. Read up on the history of ICE and HARP early digital support during the week the early 2000s. PDFs make piracy easier and PDF sharing killed ICE when they integrated them with HARP in the early 2003. I am stunned Hasbro haven’t told WOTC to cutdown on PDF support. WOTC started losing money a big time once they started to focus on digital over physical books. D&D beyond APP and website are easy to exploit for free downloads.

Tell me more about HARP

 

[Battlefield2142EU]

Tell me more about HARP

Think simplified third edition D&D with a more complex hybrid system. Even good guys practiced selected breeding in the lore. Technically, the majority of humanoid races are half humans. The magic system is based around whether you have more human or elf DNA in you. Dwarves only take in female humans and female elves as refugees for breeding stock for security and food. Humans and elves had lots of sex l from living together while fighting the orcs or were products of a super-soldier breeding program. Pure-blood humans, elves and dwarves are discriminated against in this universe for being Mundane-blooded. Unless you playing as a beast race that can’t reproduce with humanoid races. Business practice wise, ICE put codes that will unlock PDFs and access to ICE forms to play with other HARP players online. The website is no longer online. This pre-MySpace internet. ICE encourages HARP players to connect online to play with others worldwide.

 

[Mexican_Wizard_711]

Business practice wise, ICE put codes that will unlock PDFs and access to ICE forms to play with other HARP players online. The website is no longer online. This pre-MySpace internet. ICE encourages HARP players to connect online to play with others worldwide.

Sounds pretty retarded, no wonder they went nearly bankrupt

 

[Judge Dredd]

I'm looking for ideas campaign ideas and recommendations for dieselpunk or mecha media and games I can rip off.

Yes, I asked something like this before (back in February), but something has happened that has lit a fire under my arse somewhat.


Long story short, I ran a mecha one shot (think Front Mission or Titanfall) and it was a hit, my players wanted more. I had lots of time to come up with ideas. However, due to schedule conflicts, I could be starting the campaign as soon as next week.

While I'm not locked into anything yet, I'm thinking of a dieselpunk setting with furries. I'm kind of struggling with an overall campaign plot/theme. I have a few ideas but nothing I'm 100% happy with.

The problem isn't digital. The problem is that WotC doesn't make anything worth paying for anymore.
If you give people a quality product gratis, and provide an easy method for them to give you money for things related to that product, you will make more money than if you charged for it.

This is a key factor. One of my gripes with Savage Worlds is that they don't offer the books in physical form in the UK, at least not where I've seen, and I refuse to pay through the nose for them.

Oddly enough, I've heard one of the reasons SW Deluxe was so successful was because it was the price of a regular paperback ($12 or less) instead of the $50+ of most games, and the book was complete, no need for DMG, MM, and PHB. This made it easy for people to buy as a gift, to try it out, or even for DMs to buy multiple of them and hand them to each player. They gave that up with SWADE.

This is also why I own a bunch of Starfinder stuff. Their "pocket edition" books are so cheap, and they don't use much shelf/table space. At some point, I think most RPGs should go this rout, but they seem more interested in milking consoomers with requiring overpriced hardbacks.

 

[The Ugly One]

Essentially, I am looking for simple ways to keep gameplay more balanced for prolonged periods without constant rebalancing for levels. PC levels and their associated increases can lead to GMs needing to counterbalance with stronger opposition to maintain tension. I want to keep the need for rebalancing shifting numbers to a minimum and also create tension with more perennial threats for longtime players and newcomers alike. No concerns over anyone being over/under levelled and locked into what they can or can't do, and if players are resourceful enough, anyone has a chance to move forward.

Traveller's a good example of a system where high-level and low-level characters can play together, because leveling up is about skills and wealth, not hit points and damage. For example, the high-level ship captain may own the ship outright and be very good at a wide variety of tasks, from navigation to negotiation to research. The low-level security officer is good at shooting people and breaking things, and owns little besides his rifle, armor, and a few personal effects. But he actually has more hit points and is a better shot than the ship captain. You can actually choose to be older and more experienced at character creation time.

 

[AnOminous]

You can actually choose to be older and more experienced at character creation time.

Traveller had one of my favorite character generation systems, based on actually having a history where you acquired these skills you have.

 

[Ghostse]

Traveller had one of my favorite character generation systems, based on actually having a history where you acquired these skills you have.

I have never played, but I admire a lot of things Traveller attempts.

That sort of goes to my quibble about BFR's backgrounds. It shouldn't be "select background, get stuff" it should be "you have stuff based on your background" or "You chose a background based on your stuff". It should tell a story, not just be something to min-max.

 

[AnOminous]

I have never played, but I admire a lot of things Traveller attempts.

I only played a few one-shots because I couldn't really get a group together (everyone wanted D&D instead), but I liked the chargen enough I imported aspects of it into Chaosium games. While the central game mechanics shared between different settings were more or less the same, it was very easy to adapt them to almost any setting (even better than GURPS in that respect imo), and to borrow things from other games and just click them in in an almost modular way.

While in theory it was more complicated than class-based systems, i.e. pick your class, get a prepackaged bundle of skills, once you had it down it could be adapted to nearly anything.

 

[Adamska]

I mean, if you want to just play with skill levels being what matters rather than level and play in a unique version of a fantasy setting, I'd suggest Runequest, but it's also not the easiest game to just hop into given how dense the lore is.

 

[AnOminous]

I mean, if you want to just play with skill levels being what matters rather than level and play in a unique version of a fantasy setting, I'd suggest Runequest, but it's also not the easiest game to just hop into given how dense the lore is.

This is one of the few games I only ever played as a player. It was good. I didn't find it too hard to play as a player but it seems to take a skilled GM because there's a lot of background voodoo to keep track of.

 

[Adamska]

This is one of the few games I only ever played as a player. It was good. I didn't find it too hard to play as a player but it seems to take a skilled GM because there's a lot of background voodoo to keep track of.

It is as elaborate as you want it to be. The creator and current director openly stated that no two takes of Glorantha are going to be alike since they're both aware of how hard it is to track. It's why I'd suggest for new players to just start in Prax or Dragon Pass proper; it gives you a good mix without being massively overwhelming.

Ironically this is one of the few games where the starter pack IS a good buy due to this, as well as them actually giving you a decent selection.

 

[Gingervitis]

I mean, if you want to just play with skill levels being what matters rather than level and play in a unique version of a fantasy setting, I'd suggest Runequest, but it's also not the easiest game to just hop into given how dense the lore is.

Isn’t Mythras just Runequest with the runes and the copyright filed off? I havent played either, but Mythras might be the better option in that case.