Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

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Because nobody fucking expects the Wizard to cast Haste and Mage Armor on themselves and then double as a fighter, that's why.
I remember the weird thing about 5th edition is that an Orc Wizard with an 8 Int could just pull this off. The only thing it would fuck over is how many spells he can cast and saves on spells. So just don't cast spells with saves or attack roles and prep the ones that work. Magic Missile still works, haste, mage armor and shield still work so big fucking deal. Diviners still get their portent anyway.

5e is fucking weird sometimes.
 
Generally speaking, "skill based" games like Savage Worlds and Call of Cthulhu have more natural skill progression. Though SW is still level based. For CoC, I've not read the rules myself, but my understanding is after each session you roll your skills you used that session, and if you roll over your current value, it goes up.
I generally preferred systems like this after I mostly stopped playing mostly d20 games. It made it a lot easier to adapt a ruleset to a specific setting because you could just replace, remove, or add skills relevant to that setting. You could also sub in ways of getting/improving skills like for instance, reading an introductory book on something could give you a limited amount of skill, or taking time off for an intense course of study could get you more, etc.

Character generation could also be as complex as you liked, whether it was getting hyper-specific about past events or just having something more general like "four years in the Army in WW II" or "Ph.D. in Weird Studies from Miskatonic U" or "good with guns and explosives and speaks Russian because he's a Russian national mobster who fled Russia after having sided with White Russians against the Communists."

I'd generally be really flexible about this kind of thing. If you had some reasonable background to have something and it made sense and wasn't too OP, you'd get it. Obviously, something like knowing how to play a harmonica would be less "costly" than having a special key to access the "secret" parts of Miskatonic's library or unfettered access to full auto machineguns (not as OP as you might think and the key would probably be more useful).

Generally, I'd put more time into character generation the less immediately deadly the game was. No point in putting too much background into characters with the lifespan of a gnat. CoC was deadly enough that being generous with perks did not really stop the carnage.

I liked the characters to have a background of some sort, motivations, some origin story of how they know about these eldritch horrors and why, if they know about them, they are actually fighting them instead of doing what a sane person would do and try to stay away from them at all costs.
 
Goodman Games, the makers of Dungeon Crawl Classics, have gone all-in on the girldick:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=xI87M9Ez_-IView attachment 5917987
They went full nigger/tranny girldick rider years ago.
They have removed Gygax references from the PHB's intro, saying instead how its important to know the origins but make sure that your game is heckin' diverse and safe for queers and nxggxrs to be themselves.


Yup, our very own tranny embezzlement factory. Apparently their heckin valid and brave livestream generated 600 whole dollars for the "charity".
Wait this is actually super based. TLL has an actual body count so they are raising donations for more dead trannies. This is just some double-agent shit. Goodman Games back on the based list.
 
@Judge Dredd I did play savage worlds and I think it is an ok generic system, I like how easy it is to fluff magic but I do have a problem with character creation and it is how limiting feels to make a "hybrid" character. For example I wanted to make a guy who was good at punching people and could also throw some "spells" from a prosthetic limb, I tried to grab the necesary feats to use weird science but then I had very few points to be good at anything else.
In general I feel like the game is not very flexible when it comes to character builds and tries to push you into one direction, mind you I could be wrong.
That aside, are there any splatbooks or fan content for savage worlds you would recommend?
 
That aside, are there any splatbooks or fan content for savage worlds you would recommend?
Hard to say. The problem is with a lot of them, there's a few good rules to rip from them, and the rest is basically junk. eg. Deadlands Hell on Earth Reloaded has the supply and scavenging rules, but little else. The sci-fi and horror companions have some good stuff, but things like starship and mech rules are clearly not workable.

Titan Effect was great for James Bond games. Rippers I tried to run once, but my players lost interest a few sessions in. I've not played Savage Worlds in a while, and thus not really looked into new stuff for it. By this point, if I did play it again, it would likely include a hodge podge of house rules I've picked up from other games since.
 
That’s unfortunate, I was considering purchasing a rulebook. I guess it’s because they’re consoomers.

GG definitely draws consoomers. I've seen plenty of DCC fanboys who buy every variant cover of the CRB and line them up on shelves, and the low cost of the modules encourages DMs to overspend. That's also a natural consequence of making something for nerds that's affordable, though, can't blame Joseph Goodman.
 
Apparently some of my players were fucking each other and the resulting drama destroyed the campaign. For fuck's sake. Might be a good point for me to switch off D&D 5e for a bit and try some other systems I've been looking at. Anyone play Lancer or Dark Heresy? How did it go?
 
Might I interest you in GURPS, a system for people who will definitely never have sex?
I've heard interesting things about it, supposedly it's very customizable and a lot of the shit can be ignored if you don't have it in your campaign. How easy is it to understand and also shill to players?
 
I've heard interesting things about it, supposedly it's very customizable and a lot of the shit can be ignored if you don't have it in your campaign. How easy is it to understand and also shill to players?
You can always Gurps Lite (4th edition) or Mini Gurps (3rd edition), if you want to read the rules with having to deal with 400 pages of bulletproof autism. And you can get it for free.

Or you can try Hero System 4e, if you want to play capeshit with somewhat similar rules. Because, to this day, I can't deal with the super powers rules for GURPS.
 
Shadowrun uses a system called karma instead.

An excellent reference. Reviewed Shadowrun 3rd and 4th Edition materials and the 20th Anniversary Corebook. Very close to what I have in mind. Much thanks!

You can effectively do this in 4e - cap/static levels, but give the PCs progression via gear.

I did similar in a 4e campaign, where I soft capped players at level 5, hard capped them at lvl 8, but kept giving them better gear and stat-boost-in-lieu-of-level for 9+.

While working against natural methods of progression within a system is counter-intuitive, this looks like a viable solution. Very creative.

It really depends on what you're looking for there.

Generally speaking, "skill based" games like Savage Worlds and Call of Cthulhu have more natural skill progression. Though SW is still level based. For CoC, I've not read the rules myself, but my understanding is after each session you roll your skills you used that session, and if you roll over your current value, it goes up.

Familiar with Call of Cthulhu, but not so much Savage Worlds so I did some research. The SW system looks very versatile in terms of setting, but as you noted, there are some flaws baked into the execution (thanks for pointing those out by the way).

Essentially, I am looking for simple ways to keep gameplay more balanced for prolonged periods without constant rebalancing for levels. PC levels and their associated increases can lead to GMs needing to counterbalance with stronger opposition to maintain tension. I want to keep the need for rebalancing shifting numbers to a minimum and also create tension with more perennial threats for longtime players and newcomers alike. No concerns over anyone being over/under levelled and locked into what they can or can't do, and if players are resourceful enough, anyone has a chance to move forward.

Speaking of balance (and Savage Worlds), the exploding dice of SW can definitely create a balancing issue during gameplay. Though I recognize that this is the point of the exploding dice, it can create underwhelming circumstances if another player doesn't get to do anything because another PC owned the epic encounter before they had a chance to do anything. Critical failures in other games leading to unrecoverable situations (or PC death) can similarly be interesting for a moment until it's impact on the rest of the session settles in. I digress.

I have something that works well, but it is entirely custom (character sheets, rules, setting, etc.) and consequently quite simple. While I am looking for areas to expand my project, I don't want to make an over-developed monstrosity packed with numbers. I enjoy learning about existing systems, what they have to offer, and what challenges they face. There's a reason that the typical solution (present in possibly every core rulebook) is for the GM to make up their own rules and just have fun with it, which seems reasonable to a point. Certain house rules and the like can be excellent indicators of any flaws with a given system. Basically, if I see enough people fighting against certain aspects of a given system, then I pay attention (moreso if they also have a solution).

Generally, I'd put more time into character generation the less immediately deadly the game was. No point in putting too much background into characters with the lifespan of a gnat. CoC was deadly enough that being generous with perks did not really stop the carnage.

I liked the characters to have a background of some sort, motivations, some origin story of how they know about these eldritch horrors and why, if they know about them, they are actually fighting them instead of doing what a sane person would do and try to stay away from them at all costs.

Encountered a mixed bag of players being interested in character generation in terms of fleshed out characters. Decided to embrace this and created a one-off scenario where all PCs wake up (as the players with their memories) in a park near an unfamiliar suburb in the dead of night. Lured them into the suburb where they eventually realized that they were part of the first wave of an alien invasion (their role was to be body-snatchers).

Watching them slowly realize that they weren't who they thought they were and either struggle against or embrace their hidden alien instincts to kill and replace genetically compatible humans was fun. Absorbing memories and skills (until they were replaced by a new victim) was how they progressed, and the only way for them to find the deeper truth behind what was happening was to take part in the invasion and then either sabotage it or see it to completion. A fun mix of light puzzle-solving, combat, stealth, and social checks as they help each other advance to the next target. One of the players told me they took my idea for his own gaming group and had fun with it.

So yeah, no character generation required, intuitive skill progression, but also quite narrow in scope and best employed when the players have no idea it's coming.
 
While working against natural methods of progression within a system is counter-intuitive, this looks like a viable solution. Very creative.


Lvl 5 is as far as XP alone would take you. The campaign was pretty focused on Gods, Demons, and Schemes so to get to level 6 you had to have done enough shit in your god's name that they granted you divine favor for 6. I had a plan to let the players get to lvl 7 via class-based quests and evenutally 8, but the campaign was becoming sort of overburdened by that time and the last thing they needed was another side quest chain, so I canned that.

Once you hit lvl 6's XP, even if you didn't "level" you still got +1 to two stats and a feat. When player hit XP equivalent to 7, 8, 9 they got stat boosts - no feats, but they collected boons which were feats except they were assigned not chosen. I capped the XP need to reach the next 'stat boost' at 8 to 9 or 9 to 10 (I was waffling and forget which way I ended up picking; it didn't matter a whole lot as the campaign died of childbirth before too many increases happened)

And treasure parcels kept increasing (but so did the gear their opponents had) so they were walking around with lvl 13/14 gear. Players could also pray and sacrifice to their dieties to get temp boosts.

The uppowered gear made them glass cannons of a sort - they had access to a lot of abilities, but only so much HP. I had also eliminated the limits on using gear powers - you could pop as many gear dailies as you had gear with dailies.

There were some really rough edges (all lvl 6 promotions were not equal, issues with setting up non-boss enemy groups that were to be challenging but weren't just 'well I guess we limp back to town and try again tomorrow' when the party was done. And having mooks-above-minion taking too much time to take down once the novelty of that extra +1 to att/def worn off, I mucked up passing out boons a touch by giving out too powerful of ones up front so the next ones seemed to be disappointing to the party) but it really shined by both encouraging the party to avoid, observe, and weaken powerful enemies before facing them, and then the big XP dumps when they did really got players pumped with a sense of accomplishment (and wealth) when they defeated them.
 
A fun tip if you want to suckerpunch your party with a mimic: have it use a magical item it ate from a previous adventurer for funsies. Party nearly came undone from one who had a necklace of fireballs since it rolled well on the damage.
 
I would link you to a system one of my friends helped develop but he kinda parted ways with them after he quote had some professional disagreements which is code for him saying someone insulted him for a long time and he beat them bloody.
It was a really fun D100 plus D10 system but now it's tied up in lawsuits something about my friend being autistic about what good keeping
work is done for them

recommend any system I'd recommend swn the original edition to my opinion is a bit better I mean there's way too many skills but the psychic abilities were way cooler

I knew deadlands the new edition was gonna be crap after I saw a bunch of chimpanzees playing it on Trrpg twitch channels I remember playing that game with one of my friends who was playing the stereotypical Jew .
I miss that crazy Jew

also there's a pretty good one piece fan made RPG
rift is also pretty good if you want kind of a mixture of just complete and utter insanity with some sci-fi

song of ice and fire RPG's all right not great but alright
 
Essentially, I am looking for simple ways to keep gameplay more balanced for prolonged periods without constant rebalancing for levels. PC levels and their associated increases can lead to GMs needing to counterbalance with stronger opposition to maintain tension.
What you've got here is a clash of two different ideas.

Levels and exp were originally intended for games with a player controlled difficulty curve in mind. Each level of the dungeon had harder monsters, and more treasure. Each hex of a wilderness got more dangerous the further from civilization it was. Wandering monsters could go beyond their leveled zones, so a low level party could (in rare cases) encounter a high level monster, but most of the time the party decided when to go deeper. I'm running Abomination Vault at the moment and the players are very conservatives when it comes to going deeper.

For more linear, narrative or mission based games, it doesn't work quite as well, but it depends on the setting.


However, you also want to keep things balanced. Imbalance is part of the game. An old lady with a collapsed lung is going to be no match for Mike Tyson in a boxing match.

Rules lite games like Tiny d6 I enjoy for one shots, but there's not enough verity or depth to the game for extended campaigns. If you want to keep things static, rules like that might be worth looking in to.


One game I like that you might want to look in to is Knave. It's an OSR DnD compatible. The rules are supposedly free online, but tracking them down can be tricky since nowhere really hosts them. The characters have levels, but no classes as what a character can and can't do is determined by their gear. But each bit of gear uses a slot. So a fighter will be full of weapons and armour, a wizard will be carrying spellbooks, etc. There was another OSR game I forget where you had a backpack and items were all cards that you had to fit into your backpack.

Which brings me to one final point. Not all games scale the same way. PathFinder 2 scales really fast, with each level being a significant boost in power. Meanwhile old games like Castles and Crusades have extremely slow progression, not just because of exp needed to level being huge, but the benefits you get per level are fairly limited to the point where some levels seem almost useless.
 
Watching them slowly realize that they weren't who they thought they were and either struggle against or embrace their hidden alien instincts to kill and replace genetically compatible humans was fun. Absorbing memories and skills (until they were replaced by a new victim) was how they progressed, and the only way for them to find the deeper truth behind what was happening was to take part in the invasion and then either sabotage it or see it to completion. A fun mix of light puzzle-solving, combat, stealth, and social checks as they help each other advance to the next target. One of the players told me they took my idea for his own gaming group and had fun with it.
I really like this concept. I had an idea of something kind of like this but PKD-based with a lot of reality shifting and not everyone shared the same reality but I was never able to actually try it. I almost think you'd need special technology to do something like this, which is interesting because we probably actually have it now.
 
However, you also want to keep things balanced. Imbalance is part of the game. An old lady with a collapsed lung is going to be no match for Mike Tyson in a boxing match.

Yes, but what about a level 20 old lady with a collapsed lung versus a level 1 Mike Tyson?

Kidding aside, I can see your point and appreciate your response.

XP/Levels: Threats, Balance, and Reward

You are absolutely right that differentiating opponents by level makes categorization easier in terms of mapping territory and determining chance encounters based on threat level (especially if you have a larger bestiary to choose from). I've found that ranking doesn't even have to be limited to numerical levels and could even be as simple as low/moderate/high/RUN! category threats (a very basic system which I currently use).

Opponent levels aren't really an issue. Complications come into play more with PC levels that constantly place opponent in flux in terms of actual threat level and acceptable variances. These complications aren't bad when properly accounted for, but this dynamic can be difficult for, well, certain players to appreciate let alone calculate in the moment.

Another issue I've seen in other's sessions is that the way levels and XP were designed aren't necessarily how they are understood by players. Of course, this isn't an issue for people who use it as intended (to help balance the game), but in terms of also being a reward system it can be taken the wrong way and misunderstood by players. For example, some players might expect/demand a reward for killing pretty much anything (including friendly/defenseless NPCs) and, if they don't get the XP/reward they feel entitled to, claim that the GM is unfairly stifling their progress.

To be clear: there is nothing wrong with levels/XP when used appropriately, it's just that some players don't know (or don't care) that it's more than just a reward system. This is likely because players are generally more focused on personal progress, while game balance falls under the GM's purview. Consequently, as GM, if there are viable alternatives to the level/XP systems (and it sounds like there are a few) then I am interested for the sake of my players.

So far, I have been encouraged by what I've found here.

Imbalance: Chance and Design

While imbalance is part of the game, potentially game-breaking mechanics generally aren't desirable (outside of silly fun sessions where anything goes).

I don't think you are advocating for anything game-breaking though, so maybe I should articulate my position better.

Simply put: collaborative storytelling is at the heart of the roleplaying experience and each person has their role (GM and players). Rolling dice adds an element of chance to the experience and spices things up. If the experience is too linear then it becomes too predictable. Too chaotic and it can be overwhelming or even underwhelming (too easy for PCs to win/die).

The dice don't have to be game-breaking (a good GM will know how to handle things), but they can be if one lets them and more so if it is part of a system's inherent design.

In terms of balance, my preferred approach tough but fair with clear indicators where brute force isn't an option. This is why my player's Collapsed Lung Brigade of old ladies won't be up against Mike Tyson... until they are ready (obtain enough mithril knitting needles, cybernetic implants, and recruit the ghost of Evander Holyfield's right ear).

By the way, thanks for reminding me to give my pdf of Knave another look. I picked it up in 2018 (along with a host of other systems for review) and it stood out as a very rules-light system.

I really like this concept. I had an idea of something kind of like this but PKD-based with a lot of reality shifting and not everyone shared the same reality but I was never able to actually try it. I almost think you'd need special technology to do something like this, which is interesting because we probably actually have it now.

Glad you liked it. Shame you haven't had the opportunity to try your scenario yet because it sounds like a good time.

The main campaign with my players had their PCs intermittently pulled from different places (and possibly different times) and given some equipment to complete a task. If they survive to complete the task, they get to go home until they are summoned again. To add a little intrigue, there was also a running sub plot where they would occasionally come across an NPC from another faction who was trying to help them break free from whatever was summoning them. They weren't an enemy of the PCs per se, but they were certainly opposed to whatever entity was making use of them. This led the players to wonder who to trust, as they appeared to just be means to an end for either side. Good times.

I find that simple concepts with complex implications tend to be the most engaging. My players weren't always the most proactive, so a scenario where the adventure aggressively comes to them, provides them motivation to bond as a team, and lets them pop in and out of the campaign (and rotate around the NPCs that help them) worked best. Plus, each new challenge helped to develop my current system in a narratively satisfying way for my "playtesters".

Anyway, be sure to post if/when you get a chance to try our idea. I would be curious to know how it went.
 
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