Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[wtfNeedSignUp]

How would you know what got you an eternity in Hell? And suppose you're already hellbound? Considering all of Hell is fighting with itself anyway, wouldn't you rather do something that at least scored you a powerful position in Hell as opposed to being some larval creature submerged in lava?

If you have clerics who can communicate with gods then having a list of definite do's and dont's is a matter of time, but even without it I doubt smaller crimes will carry that penalty (though it depends how the whole afterlife thing works out, if it's god dependent or is the same in general. Is there an afterlife for lawful good and chaotic good?). It will be a massive thing considering the question of afterlife is one of the biggest things in religions and philosophy. The idea of "I'm damned anyways so I'll do what I want to at least make it sweeter" is a legitimate villain reasoning.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

How would you know what got you an eternity in Hell? And suppose you're already hellbound? Considering all of Hell is fighting with itself anyway, wouldn't you rather do something that at least scored you a powerful position in Hell as opposed to being some larval creature submerged in lava?

If you have clerics who can communicate with gods then having a list of definite do's and dont's is a matter of time, but even without it I doubt smaller crimes will carry that penalty (though it depends how the whole afterlife thing works out, if it's god dependent or is the same in general. Is there an afterlife for lawful good and chaotic good?). It will be a massive thing considering the question of afterlife is one of the biggest things in religions and philosophy. The idea of "I'm damned anyways so I'll do what I want to at least make it sweeter" is a legitimate villain reasoning.

Mostly this would require tabletop setting creators to put actual thought into the religion and metaphysics of a world, such as:

What happens after a person dies? Is there a Heaven and Hell, or multiples of each? If so, how do you get to one or the other? What moral precepts do any of the actual religions have? What happens if you break those precepts? Is there a method for achieving forgiveness? Is there a method of finding salvation in a religion, and, if there is, can you lose it? What relationship do the gods have towards each other?

 

[AnOminous]

The idea of "I'm damned anyways so I'll do what I want to at least make it sweeter" is a legitimate villain reasoning.

It's kind of popular I suppose.

I'm not seeing any obvious winners in that hell war though, nor any good guys.

If you have clerics who can communicate with gods then having a list of definite do's and dont's is a matter of time, but even without it I doubt smaller crimes will carry that penalty (though it depends how the whole afterlife thing works out, if it's god dependent or is the same in general.

Suppose your clerics are idiots and picked the wrong god? And you're about to get absolutely raped because your god turned out a loser in the war?

 

[Gingervitis]

Most of your examples are things that are not evil, but irregardless people do those dumb shit mainly because they treat their one life as what they have before the endless void after death so might as well use it to the fullest.

But if you know for a fact that certain actions will grant you an eternity in hell you would rather die than do them. And people at the top would probably have their clerics tell if every move is considered good by their patron god. You'd also probably have people vying for the god that gives the best paradise or the easiest morality to follow.

I guess a good DM could use those for an interesting idea of society that doesn't conform to stock medieval thinking.

Consider this thought. I’m not like all these other fools, with their silly little schemes. Unlike them, my plans and hard work will get me a nice, comfy spot in hell as a higher ranking devil/demon.

It’s a logical fallacy, but it’s not one that you wouldn’t see someone else fall into.

 

[Ghostse]

tl;dr: People still fall for MLM schemes & Nigerian prince set ups. I don't see why they wouldn't fall for Asmodeus' line of bullshit.


In my settings, my interpretation of the Stock D&D chronology is that the average person spends time in the Shadowfell.
The true paragons of a God/Goddess get taken right to their god's Astral Realm.
There aren't a lot of "Black Mass and Samhain" Asmodeus worshippers, so the guys who are onboard with the evil gods are in it 100%, because they believe that Hell will smash the gods in the Astral Sea, and when that happens they'll get elevated to godhood.
That or its hubris making pacts with Infernal forces for worldly power and getting in too deep.
You sacrifice one innocent virgin that one time because you really need out of this jam - but that's it! That's end of it! Never again. Until next week when the next crisis comes... and before you know it, you're building a pyramid out of living flesh sewn together.


You have the whole society of Bel Turath which is pretty much founded on the concept of making deals with devils, thinking you can stop any time, and then realizing too late you've taken out a 2nd mortgage on your soul.

There's a reason most of the Big Bads have their ranks stocked with undead and constructs.


In a more custom settings:
-One of the things I like to do is have the devils and demons not even really be Evil, they are barely even amoral, they just make trades with mortals for power; its not the Devil's fault the humans always use the power it gives to exploit, rob, rape, and murder each other. They could be using the given power for good.

-Sort of going along with that, I like to take a page from some African mythology and have it so that Asmodeus isn't the enemy of the Creator - far from it. Asmodeus is (in his mind) the gods' #1 most loyal servant. Look at the utter gaping assholes who's inner nature he & his devils are ferreting out and dragging to hell for an eternity of torture. All he has to do is give them a little power, convince them what they are doing isn't evil or if they realize it promise them they'd get to be in charge in hell, and BOOM! they are out there genociding and getting up to all sorts of heinous bullshit.
If Asmodeus wasn't on the job, those douche bags would getting into the Astral Realms.

-Asmodeus & the other evil gods having more "earthly" power. So if you are really down with Asmodeus, you'll never face judgement because they'll make you immortal - or so you hope. Or maybe they very legitimately do, and that's why the party is being sent out by the gods. The only way the Asmodeus Pope dies is if someone smites him with the power of Pelor.

-Another I've done and want to get into a more formalized cosmology is have the Pantheon be Aztec with a little bit of Norse; all the gods are bloodthirsty assholes who eat human(oid) souls and get entertainment from seeing the mortals fight and kill each other. This one has issues with soft modern audiences who don't get the concept of suffering to keep the line going and the hope maybe things will be better.

 

[ZMOT]

I've been reading on the Blood War on 1d4chan and started thinking, the whole concept of being evil in any fantasy setting is pretty retarded when you have people who can directly speak to god and report exactly what is right or wrong and what happens after you die.

There would be some evil due to regular malice, stupidity and ignorance but nowhere near what happens in our world.

except the evil guys have gods on their own, so what's the good god gonna do, if he doesn't want to risk a celestial conflict (if they even care to begin with)?

that's where the whole "instrument of faith" and indirect action through the characters come in. "I can neither confirm nor deny I was helping that dude defeat that other dude"

 

[IridiumDragon06]

Most of your examples are things that are not evil, but irregardless people do those dumb shit mainly because they treat their one life as what they have before the endless void after death so might as well use it to the fullest.

But if you know for a fact that certain actions will grant you an eternity in hell you would rather die than do them. And people at the top would probably have their clerics tell if every move is considered good by their patron god. You'd also probably have people vying for the god that gives the best paradise or the easiest morality to follow.

I guess a good DM could use those for an interesting idea of society that doesn't conform to stock medieval thinking.

Most D&D cosmologies have the souls of petitioners eventually either become the lowest-ranked outsider type of their afterlife, or just merge with the plane, so you're not dealing with a true eternity in terms of game theory. And my examples were not moral, but they were all cases in which there are clear and obvious consequences for doing something easy or fun or otherwise desirable; most people, being people, do not really respond to "Do good now or you'll suffer in 50 years." when they can actually look around and see people suffering that fate, much less when it's happening on another plane of existence.

Now, that being said, you can absolutely have an interesting campaign setting where there is ancient-Egypt-level of concern about the destination of your soul. One thing to consider is that good nature is not enough; there's a lot of magic (or just active fiends) who can outright steal your virtuous soul. It requires pretty powerful magic, but if you're of interest to the kinds of devils that cut deals, I wonder how persuasive "If you happen to repent, we will absolutely pay a hit squad of evil adventurers with a prepared Trap the Soul item to raid your celestial plane and re-acquire you and drag you to Hell, and we'll give your soul personal attention for that inconvenience." is as part of an infernal contract pitch.

Another thing you might see a lot of are statue vaults. If you're a bastard and your death is approaching, you might pay a powerful wizard or a medusa to turn you to stone, and then entomb your body in a bunch of other stone in a geologically-stable area. You never died, so your soul will remain in your insensate stone body indefinitely. It's like the diet version of undeath as a means of escaping your fate (which, of course, would also be very popular.)

 

[Judge Dredd]

Bit off topic but the game I'm a player in is cancelled for a session. One guy turned to the group and asked if anyone was going to run a one shot instead. I didn't have anything prepared, but I was wondering if you guys do?

Do you keep an adventure in mind in case you're called on to DM short notice, and if so, what is it?

Although a social intrigue game around ruining people's lives would be funny. Plant evidence the noblewoman is cheating on her husband with an orc who farts in her pussy, or something. Work up a fantasy character assassin's guild that's every bit the terror Twitter thinks the Farms is.

You joke, but I could see that working for an adventure in an evil campaign. I once ran a game where the party was criminals (but they refused to do any evil things so it ended up more Robin Hood than GTA) and that kind of set up would've worked great.

I had some notes for a computer RPG (think Destiny meets Mass Effect) I wanted to make and one of the turning point faction quests was going to be removing evidence of the faction leaders immorality. If the players go along with it or not would be a moral choice.

 

[Flaming Insignias]

Consider this thought. I’m not like all these other fools, with their silly little schemes. Unlike them, my plans and hard work will get me a nice, comfy spot in hell as a higher ranking devil/demon.

It’s a logical fallacy, but it’s not one that you wouldn’t see someone else fall into.

I keep looking at the Chaos Cults of Warhammer as a demonstration of who would willingly sign their souls to evil gods. Sure, the Ruinous Powers are psychotic reality-cancers who treat most of their followers like shit. Sure the average Chaos Cultist will be used as cheap cannon fodder or sacrificed by more successful Chaos worshipers as part of their ascendance. Sure, a lot of aspiring champions get turned into mindless masses of limbs and tentacles that get used as pets by new champions. However, if you're one of those bastards that toughs out the mutations, shows devotion to your patrons, and kicks the ass of anyone that tries to dethrone you, you get showered with rewards and eventually immortality as a Daemon Prince. It's an uphill battle with an exponentially tiny chance of success, but the reward is just too promising to ignore, and thus millions will join heretical cults for the simple chance of immortality and power.

The same applies to a lot of other evil cults and devil-worshippers of fantasy. You’ll probably get screwed, but the sheer chance that you'll be one of the lucky few to obtain eternal power and glory is just too much to ignore and leads people to throw their lot in with horrible things.

 

[Ghostse]

Bit off topic but the game I'm a player in is cancelled for a session. One guy turned to the group and asked if anyone was going to run a one shot instead. I didn't have anything prepared, but I was wondering if you guys do?

Do you keep an adventure in mind in case you're called on to DM short notice, and if so, what is it?

Not on that short of notice. If I had a week or so, I'd probably do my usual Maze Rats + Lair of the Lantern worm, or maybe something else OSE.

Depending on what's going on in the campaign, I'd either suggest everyone get together and just bullshit and maybe play a boardgame or just have a session where everyone fixes their inventory.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I keep looking at the Chaos Cults of Warhammer as a demonstration of who would willingly sign their souls to evil gods. Sure, the Ruinous Powers are psychotic reality-cancers who treat most of their followers like shit. Sure the average Chaos Cultist will be used as cheap cannon fodder or sacrificed by more successful Chaos worshipers as part of their ascendance. Sure, a lot of aspiring champions get turned into mindless masses of limbs and tentacles that get used as pets by new champions. However, if you're one of those bastards that toughs out the mutations, shows devotion to your patrons, and kicks the ass of anyone that tries to dethrone you, you get showered with rewards and eventually immortality as a Daemon Prince. It's an uphill battle with an exponentially tiny chance of success, but the reward is just too promising to ignore, and thus millions will join heretical cults for the simple chance of immortality and power.

The same applies to a lot of other evil cults and devil-worshippers of fantasy. You’ll probably get screwed, but the sheer chance that you'll be one of the lucky few to obtain eternal power and glory is just too much to ignore and leads people to throw their lot in with horrible things.

Also, in many cases the allure of the Dark Gods is literally magical. The more someone prays and supplicates to the gods, the more these spikes being ritually hammered through their torsos feel like a blissful source of ecstasy instead of just excruciating pain. The one-in-a-million Chaos champion demonstrating his powers is opening the cultists' minds to a reality they never thought possible, and the mere knowledge of these powers can start to distort someone's perception of the world and make dedicating one's soul to an entity that will eventually just turn you into a mindless labor wretch more attractive.

And in many other less extreme settings becoming a cultist simply becomes a matter of being either insane to begin with, or being captured and rendered insane by the cult's torture/brainwashing.

 

[Mr. Manchester]

Most of your examples are things that are not evil, but irregardless people do those dumb shit mainly because they treat their one life as what they have before the endless void after death so might as well use it to the fullest.

But if you know for a fact that certain actions will grant you an eternity in hell you would rather die than do them. And people at the top would probably have their clerics tell if every move is considered good by their patron god. You'd also probably have people vying for the god that gives the best paradise or the easiest morality to follow.

I guess a good DM could use those for an interesting idea of society that doesn't conform to stock medieval thinking.

The first thing is that evil lies to people, so to the uninformed Asmodeus worshiper they're definitely going to heaven and not hell, or that hell is actually heaven, or that they'll go to hell but they'll be in charge. Normally if someone is just told that at face value they probably won't go for it, but after getting some power and riches all of a sudden those lies get really easy to believe. After a while they'll just lie to themselves about how sacrificing those 50 people was something they had to do and they all deserved it anyway.

Even some really high wisdom cleric had to start by serving his dark lord in hell and might even be fine with becoming a kick ass devil at the end of it. Evil clerics are also fully capable of casting healing spells and curing diseases, then they can turn around and just say, "see, I'm good too faggot, the other guy is lying to you."

Evil gods are also powerful and have influence on the world. Why would the town have a temple to the evil god of disease? So he doesn't disease your whole town because you didn't build his fucking temple, that's why. Better celebrate his holy day too or you can have fun with the plague again, don't make him send more wererats.

There's also the people that think they can just beat the system. Johnny out plays the devil for his golden fiddle right? Who cares if Orcus claims my soul, liches never die so I'll never go to the abyss remember? Why not just take the easy path the evil gods lay before you and then trick them at the very end?

My point is, fuck your sky god, hail satan, tmdwu toobs.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Evil gods are also powerful and have influence on the world. Why would the town have a temple to the evil god of disease? So he doesn't disease your whole town because you didn't build his fucking temple, that's why. Better celebrate his holy day too or you can have fun with the plague again, don't make him send more wererats.

That was a very big thing with ancient religions in real life, too. There were plenty of temples and cults dedicated to evil gods, or gods ruling over evil aspects. You don't do it because you admire the plague god or because you want more plague in the world: you do it to appease the gods or the spirits so they don't unleash their wrath upon your village/nation.

 

[King Dead]

Bit off topic but the game I'm a player in is cancelled for a session. One guy turned to the group and asked if anyone was going to run a one shot instead. I didn't have anything prepared, but I was wondering if you guys do?

Do you keep an adventure in mind in case you're called on to DM short notice, and if so, what is it?

I don't really have anything offhand, but if I were in that situation, I'd just hop on DMsGuild and look through free one-shots people have posted. No sense in paying for something that's probably not gonna be all that serious.

On a side note, it's been a while since I went on the site, and I just noticed Keith Baker put out another 5e Eberron sourcebook, Chronicles of Eberron. Anyone taken a look at it? I'm a fan of the setting and enjoyed perusing Exploring Eberron, so I might pick this one up as well.

 

[robobobo]

You also have to remember, your average asshole in Warhammer/40K are what we would consider uneducated third worlders, either dirt farmers in Warhammer or a factory slave in 40K. Chaos doesn't have to work very hard or offer very much to be a tempting lifestyle change for them, and it's not like the "good guys" were treating them great to begin with. They'd probably worship Slaanesh for a halfway-decent sandwich.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

The first thing is that evil lies to people, so to the uninformed Asmodeus worshiper they're definitely going to heaven and not hell, or that hell is actually heaven, or that they'll go to hell but they'll be in charge. Normally if someone is just told that at face value they probably won't go for it, but after getting some power and riches all of a sudden those lies get really easy to believe. After a while they'll just lie to themselves about how sacrificing those 50 people was something they had to do and they all deserved it anyway.

And then there are those who are just selfish, rebellious, and/or evil, and even if they know that the good gods or God himself, in a monotheistic setting, offer a heaven of eternal reward if you do good and offer faith, they will still rebel simply because they don't want to submit to God or gods. Look at the story of Lucifer himself. He was an angel of beautiful light, who literally lived in heaven, surrounded by God's infinite glory, and yet he still became lifted up in pride, despite the fact that he was apparently already a very powerful angel. He still wanted more, he still wasn't satisfied. So he rebelled, along with a third of the angels and was cast from heaven for his impudence to face eternal punishment in hell. In Christianity, this is used to demonstrate that there will always be those who reject God and the ways of righteousness, even if they objectively know and see the benefits of such, because they want more, or they don't want to submit to God, or they think that their way of doing things is best. So even having objective proof of God's greatness will not dissuade them from rebelling against him.

 

[The Ugly One]

I've been reading on the Blood War on 1d4chan and started thinking, the whole concept of being evil in any fantasy setting is pretty retarded when you have people who can directly speak to god and report exactly what is right or wrong and what happens after you die.

There would be some evil due to regular malice, stupidity and ignorance but nowhere near what happens in our world.

Being evil is way more cooler in fantasy worlds than it is in ours, though. If you're evil in our world, you pretty much end up doing meth in a trailer with other losers. In D&D world, if you're evil, you get badass black armor, you get to ride around on a spider, and you can suck the souls out of people you don't like and turn them into your personal skeleton horde.

 

[AnOminous]

That was a very big thing with ancient religions in real life, too. There were plenty of temples and cults dedicated to evil gods, or gods ruling over evil aspects. You don't do it because you admire the plague god or because you want more plague in the world: you do it to appease the gods or the spirits so they don't unleash their wrath upon your village/nation.

I'd say especially with pantheons like the Greek/Roman, you didn't really have "good" and "evil" gods. Even Zeus could be a real prick from time to time, and the "evil" gods, like Kali in Hinduism, actually served an ultimate and necessary purpose.

And then you have the True Neutral types in RPGs who might deliberately increase the evil in the world despite not being evil, because it is necessary to the Balance.

So even having objective proof of God's greatness will not dissuade them from rebelling against him.

"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven."

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven."

That lure is going to pull in a lot of arrogant, egotistical, and just plain asshole people.

You really have to look at how your cosmology is set up too. The Gods serve a function, so what function? How do they interact with the other Gods and why?

I've ran games where the Elven god of war was a human that an elven goddess seduced to help them against human and orc attacks. The more primal orc gods weren't evil, just "eat to live, motherfucker!" but the modern one is an evil douchebag who sees shortcuts by hurting and taking from others as just fine and might makes right (Lawful Evil). The human Goddess of Evil hates her twin brother, the human God of Good, because he does things in harmony with others where she takes the shortcuts.

But you would totally have clerics offering to audit your soul. Lists of do's and don't's.Kings and Emporers that would be terrified of losing the Mandate of Heaven.

Wars would be fought to stop stupid shit that causes more damage than just leaving it all alone.

Make the gods petty and cruel. Make them less 'compassionate and understandable' and more driven by the portfolio and consumed by their celestial task.

But most games don't take into account just how HUGE the churches would be.

The Gods are real. You got a massive stomach wound and some dude from Pelor healed it with just a touch and told you that you had to go to church every Sunday. You can bet you're going. You've seen magic and miracles.

There wouldn't be atheists or agnostics.

You wouldn't have any corruption of the holy books by some asshole prophet or the guy would burst into flame. No preacher up there teaching the wrong shit or an Angel statue comes to life and kills the dude right at the pulpit and finishes the sermon itself.

Of course, you have to go into the nature of the soul, what importance does it have, why do the Gods want them, where do they go when they die?

Do the Gods depend on their worshippers for power? If so, then you can bank of Holy Wars to wipe out the other dude's worshippers and burn his fucking churches.

It's all interesting stuff that is RARELY addressed.

But remember, people will trade every moral and ethic they have for a shot of pussy or a handful of coins. Even if an angel stood over someone and said "I wouldn't do that..." you'd still have dipshits taking a Golden Goose from a demon, wanting to hurry up getting the golden eggs, and butchering it.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I'd say especially with pantheons like the Greek/Roman, you didn't really have "good" and "evil" gods. Even Zeus could be a real prick from time to time, and the "evil" gods, like Kali in Hinduism, actually served an ultimate and necessary purpose.

And then you have the True Neutral types in RPGs who might deliberately increase the evil in the world despite not being evil, because it is necessary to the Balance.

That's why I mentioned evil aspects. For example, nobody in Ancient Greek liked Thanatos or Eris, and most of the Hellenic world wanted nothing to do with Ares. Yet they still attempted to appease (and sometimes made offerings to these gods) because nobody wanted to be afflicted by death and discord, and while Ares had positive aspects to him the brutality of war that he represented was also something most Greeks wanted to avoid.

It's a kind of mindset that's alien to people these days. Modern people, atop our mountain of acquired knowledge, often find it difficult to understand that people back in the day actually believed in their religion. Some people cared more or less about it, but simply being immersed in the culture meant that there were things you did out of sheer habit that were intended to ward away evil spirits and please the gods. Maintaining an altar at home, or adding a stone or pouring some oil onto waystones as you walked by them. And sometimes there were whole festivals that you participated in because... well, what else are you gonna do? Might as well get in there, praise the gods, have a good time, and get some free food in the process.

Religion was a very integral thing to their day-to-day lives, and it should also be like that in medieval fantasy unless your world has somehow gone through a Positivist revolution before discovering steam power.