Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

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Adamska said:
See that confirms to me it was a cunt move, since that's not a hint IMO. Any DM worth their salt has the climax be the part most likely to kill off characters, so this only indicates difficulty to me. That does not indicate in the slightest that a PC decides to play this game like Black Crusade but only reading the "conspire against the peers" part.

Fuck that; I'd walk. Wouldn't come back either.
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I don't disagree with you - I generally dislike PC traitors unless its very clear from the outset you shouldn't trust the other players (i.e. paranoia, clear signs that one of the party is a traitor). I mean its a Warhams game so I guess everyone secretly being an agent of the ruinous powers isn't out of line, just not my kind of show.

But I'm going to assume there is environmental context for @Kup 's table that isn't coming across in his posts and a PC suddenly turning traitor isn't a cunt-move surprise but expected Evil GM shennignans in line with the expectations of everyone at the table because they want an evil GM.
 
Ghostse said:
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I don't disagree with you - I generally dislike PC traitors unless its very clear from the outset you shouldn't trust the other players (i.e. paranoia, clear signs that one of the party is a traitor). I mean its a Warhams game so I guess everyone secretly being an agent of the ruinous powers isn't out of line, just not my kind of show.

But I'm going to assume there is environmental context for @Kup 's table that isn't coming across in his posts and a PC suddenly turning traitor isn't a cunt-move surprise but expected Evil GM shennignans in line with the expectations of everyone at the table because they want an evil GM.
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It was shocking but the impact or lack-thereof was mainly due to me getting to play as his Sister of Battle gf and the non-traitors being very very happy to have a new PC who leads a squad of bolter-bitches.

House-rule, your guy dies. DM let’s you pick from the supporting cast. I mean this is a campaign there two PCs died in turn one, death isn’t so much a threat as an inevitability. We had a name-generator on standby for new characters.

This game was a warmup of sorts to our long-running Dark Hersey campaign.

Should’ve clarified that to begin with.
 
Kup said:
It was shocking but the impact or lack-thereof was mainly due to me getting to play as his Sister of Battle gf and the non-traitors being very very happy to have a new PC who leads a squad of bolter-bitches.

House-rule, your guy dies. DM let’s you pick from the supporting cast. I mean this is a campaign there two PCs died in turn one, death isn’t so much a threat as an inevitability. We had a name-generator on standby for new characters.

This game was a warmup of sorts to our long-running Dark Hersey campaign.

Should’ve clarified that to begin with.
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This... doesn't really change my mind, because there's a difference between going in knowing death was likely, and getting side cocked by a player and the GM that allowed it with no warning.

Dead during the final battle? Fair enough. Killed by the inquisitor due to what I saw? Fair enough. Getting killed by gay ops by a player and the GM? I pick up my dice and leave.

I know what the setting is like dude; I think this is a shitty move.
 
Adamska said:
This... doesn't really change my mind, because there's a difference between going in knowing death was likely, and getting side cocked by a player and the GM that allowed it with no warning.

Dead during the final battle? Fair enough. Killed by the inquisitor due to what I saw? Fair enough. Getting killed by gay ops by a player and the GM? I pick up my dice and leave.

I know what the setting is like dude; I think this is a shitty move.
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I'm on the flip side of that coin and really enjoy a truly devious betrayal when it's well planned out and played. When executed properly, it makes for a great dramatic moment, which is what appears to have occurred in this case. It's a far cry better than party members dying because someone decided to do some lol randumb thing in combat or during a serious moment, destroying the mood.
 
40 Year Old Boomer said:
I'm on the flip side of that coin and really enjoy a truly devious betrayal when it's well planned out and played. When executed properly, it makes for a great dramatic moment, which is what appears to have occurred in this case. It's a far cry better than party members dying because someone decided to do some lol randumb thing in combat or during a serious moment, destroying the mood.
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Cool. It's a cunt move and I'll never be able to trust or want to play with the person AND the GM who does that again. I don't see a cool dramatic moment, I see a jackass that's even worse than the lol randumb guy, since I know what I'm getting into with the latter at least. Betrayal cunt though requires a douchebag GM to work with them, meaning I have two pieces of shit to deal with, meaning twice the garbage. I'd just walk as a result.

Only games I'd tolerate that shit are games like Paranoia and Black Crusade to a lesser extent. Since in those games that paranoia and competition/betrayal is a major point in game.
 
Adamska said:
Cool. It's a cunt move and I'll never be able to trust or want to play with the person AND the GM who does that again.
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I agree with this on the player, less the GM (potentially).
Again, unless its a game like Paranoia or even just an Evil-alignment campaign, suddenly someone being a traitor out of the blue is just a bad move; you need to set an expectation of PC betrayal. Totally different if cause/warning has been given to expect betrayal - then getting blindsided when its a PC is just me fucking up and not paying attention, since the expectation had been set.

I wouldn't say I'd never play with them again, but yes, I'd also just have to always assume that the traitor's player was doing dumb evil traitor shit in any future games and that would decrease my willingness to play with them, sort of in line with the wacky randumb player and for about the same reasons.

GM is a toss up; depends on how much the GM was involved in the betrayal. If the GM just let it happen, I'd just tell them that I didn't think that was cool and trust it to not happen again. If the GM was actively conspiring with the traitor or had suggested it (again, with no forewarning) then I'd probably be done with that GM.

But again, I got the impression that @Kup 's table is built around just assuming the other players will sell you out for a silver piece and tankard of ale. So in that case the betrayal was sudden but not wholly unexpected - the expectation of PC treachery has already been set long before the game started. Some people like that environment, just like some tables are about being a bunch of wacky murder hobos, and I think its fine if everyone at the table is good with that being the atmosphere. Not my sort of show, but I'm not there so I don't care.

I've done "traitor" limited-run campaigns/oneshots, but everyone knew ahead of time there was a PC traitor or at least the definite possibility of a PC traitor. And not some vague line in the setting description like "Lolth is known to have her worshippers infiltrate organizations that might interfere with her plan to conquer and enslave the surface world and blot out the sun,and the Alliance is always watchful for double agents". Either they are told out right "Someone is a traitor" by the GM or they are given solid, clear evidence in-game someone in or close to the party is working for the opposition.
But both players and characters were aware that their fellow party members should only be trusted so much long before they have the chance to discover the knife in their back. And more importantly, unless it was a one-shot and/or a variable traitor (like players have hidden "You turn traitor if X happens" instructions at the start), the players have mechanisms to discover and deal with the traitor that aren't solely based on seeing though the player's ability to lie. This lets players have the opportunity to have private GM sessions where they plan & implement their own anti-traitor countermeasures.
 
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So last session that the other DM in my group runs my rogue bit it. Much to his chagrin, the party is now two fighters and two barbarians, with the highest intelligence a 10. I'm not sure how far we'll get with this, but I don't care. I love playing dumb characters. Anybody else in the same boat?
 
When I DM I refuse to let players hide behind a low INT score. Low INT just means you suck a spells (and possibly getting better at skills, depending on system. Also fewer puzzle hints).
You want to play an idiot, as long as you aren't fucking things up for anyone else or just using it to be lolrandumb, knock yourself out; you don't need to dump INT to do it. There are plenty of morons teaching college level-courses, and a lot of plot hooks boil down to a powerful wizard being caught unaware by the easily foreseen consequences of their actions.

Someone saying they want to play a dumb character gives me instant warning flags, because for most people "dumb" equates to "chaotic wacky" and for some reason they are never idiots when it comes to finding monster weaknesses, activating traps or when all their adventuring gear costs double and loot sells for a tenth (or they find out the coins are pyrite) because the merchant clocked a rube.

That said, one of my favorite characters was a Dwarf MNK/BAR who was a Dwarven law-school drop out. In his Dwarven society, the legal system was based on Trial by Combat, and so he was a meat-head D20 frat boy and got to yell out court room one-liners.
(I was a very on/off character for that campaign so he was built to have a ready reason to be where ever the party was (usually chasing them to sign an affidavit), and to leave where ever the session ended (going back to file the paper work for the case) and generally keep out of long-term decisions)

tl;dr:
A Player having an INT under 10 is the only excuse I'll accept for characters being idiots.
 
Ghostse said:
When I DM I refuse to let players hide behind a low INT score. Low INT just means you suck a spells (and possibly getting better at skills, depending on system. Also fewer puzzle hints).
You want to play an idiot, as long as you aren't fucking things up for anyone else or just using it to be lolrandumb, knock yourself out; you don't need to dump INT to do it. There are plenty of morons teaching college level-courses, and a lot of plot hooks boil down to a powerful wizard being caught unaware by the easily foreseen consequences of their actions.

Someone saying they want to play a dumb character gives me instant warning flags, because for most people "dumb" equates to "chaotic wacky" and for some reason they are never idiots when it comes to finding monster weaknesses, activating traps or when all their adventuring gear costs double and loot sells for a tenth (or they find out the coins are pyrite) because the merchant clocked a rube.

That said, one of my favorite characters was a Dwarf MNK/BAR who was a Dwarven law-school drop out. In his Dwarven society, the legal system was based on Trial by Combat, and so he was a meat-head D20 frat boy and got to yell out court room one-liners.
(I was a very on/off character for that campaign so he was built to have a ready reason to be where ever the party was (usually chasing them to sign an affidavit), and to leave where ever the session ended (going back to file the paper work for the case) and generally keep out of long-term decisions)

tl;dr:
A Player having an INT under 10 is the only excuse I'll accept for characters being idiots.
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My second favorite character I ever played was an 8 INT monk and former Barbarian in 5e. He was a former warlord and bandit that was beaten into submission by another monk, who he then followed with utmost loyalty. He wasn't the best with politics, zoning out or misunderstanding ideas. He also often over simplified things. But he was very world wise and knew a person's nature quite well. So dumb guy with wise words and a good gut instinct, to represent his good wisdom score.

Another fun character I'm growing to love is a WHFBRPG squire. He's not the brightest boy, tough as a brick, and asks little to no questions. Doglike loyalty too.

I've also played foolish characters; a Paladin I played with has the worst WIS I've ever played with, so he tended to leap before looking. Not a dumb guy, but very shortsighted and only starting to grow out of that.

Dumb characters are fun, as much as the smart ones honestly.
 
Adamska said:
My second favorite character I ever played was an 8 INT monk and former Barbarian in 5e. He was a former warlord and bandit that was beaten into submission by another monk, who he then followed with utmost loyalty. He wasn't the best with politics, zoning out or misunderstanding ideas. He also often over simplified things. But he was very world wise and knew a person's nature quite well. So dumb guy with wise words and a good gut instinct, to represent his good wisdom score.

Another fun character I'm growing to love is a WHFBRPG squire. He's not the brightest boy, tough as a brick, and asks little to no questions. Doglike loyalty too.

I've also played foolish characters; a Paladin I played with has the worst WIS I've ever played with, so he tended to leap before looking. Not a dumb guy, but very shortsighted and only starting to grow out of that.

Dumb characters are fun, as much as the smart ones honestly.
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Do high INT low WIS count? Probably my favorite character was a sheltered Tiefling who grew up in a Sorcerer supremacist cult ("We have magic in our veins, we are the ubermenschen!"). Thing is: he was a Wizard, no natural talent in spellcasting which his cult leader dad forced him to learn to hide this fact. Ended up running off when he realized he didn't measure up to the cult's standards (despite his dad protecting him) and he wanted to be like a hero in the stories anyway...and heroes worked with non-magic users a lot. So you have what is essentially this sheltered computer geek who already has a social disadvantage (being a Tiefling) babbling about legendary tales and basically telling the quest givers how "fascinating" he found the monsters they were paying for him to fight. Pity the GM wasn't good enough to capitalize on it, because the Half-Orc Fighter in the party was trying to take him under his wing.
 
Airbrushed Van Art said:
Most fun I ever had with a dumb character was a retarded half-orc barbarian who followed the orders of an evil halfling who rode on his shoulders. He was violently defensive of his friends and enjoyed eating the faces off of snobby elves.

So much fun. The DM let me break through walls like the Kool-Aid guy.
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Was that evil halfling a ranger who was also a sexy shoeless god of death?

Also, I have had fun times with a similar character to what you're talking about. Not anything specifically low-stat (quite the opposite), but his ego compels him to do some really dumb things. Like boast to the TV cameras about winning a big martial arts tournament while currently wanted by the English Space Mafia for helping to rob a space casino they totally don't operate. Game has sadly been on hiatus since before COVID, and you will be delighted to know the GM told me he was keeping track of all of the stupid, attention grabbing things he did and ratcheting up a private threat counter every so often. And I'll fucking do it again despite that, because... he just can't help himself when he's got an audience.

That said, you never go full retard, so when something needs to be done quietly and efficiently and by the book... he can perform marvelously. Of course, that last session before scheduling issues wound up being very unquiet. As in the Payday Gang decides to false-flag two gangs into fighting to cover up their theft unquiet.
 
Snekposter said:
Was that evil halfling a ranger who was also a sexy shoeless god of death?

Also, I have had fun times with a similar character to what you're talking about. Not anything specifically low-stat (quite the opposite), but his ego compels him to do some really dumb things. Like boast to the TV cameras about winning a big martial arts tournament while currently wanted by the English Space Mafia for helping to rob a space casino they totally don't operate. Game has sadly been on hiatus since before COVID, and you will be delighted to know the GM told me he was keeping track of all of the stupid, attention grabbing things he did and ratcheting up a private threat counter every so often. And I'll fucking do it again despite that, because... he just can't help himself when he's got an audience.

That said, you never go full retard, so when something needs to be done quietly and efficiently and by the book... he can perform marvelously. Of course, that last session before scheduling issues wound up being very unquiet. As in the Payday Gang decides to false-flag two gangs into fighting to cover up their theft unquiet.
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“Never go full retard”

Since we’re talking retard characters, I once played through the entirety of an AvP campaign as this man.
BB9029D3-C2B0-44F6-81D5-3D60019A3C10.jpeg
Sergeant Lincoln Osiris, Colonial Marines.

Didn’t hesitate to make race an issue in Alien vs Predator, at one point he got his squad through a particularly dangerous encounter with a corporate exec by screaming her down as a bigot and calling her a “typsy-two suit motherfucka in a three suit package.”

Playing a fucking moron who is in-universe LARPing a black man is one of the most rewarding RPs I’ve ever done.

“COME ON OUT YOU BUGGY BITCHES, NON’ US FRAID TO DIE!”

“Son, I ain’t gonna kid you. I’m more focused on throwing some of them bugs in the gumbo than survivin today.”
 
Kup said:
“Never go full retard”

Since we’re talking retard characters, I once played through the entirety of an AvP campaign as this man.
View attachment 2746314
Sergeant Lincoln Osiris, Colonial Marines.

Didn’t hesitate to make race an issue in Alien vs Predator, at one point he got his squad through a particularly dangerous encounter with a corporate exec by screaming her down as a bigot and calling her a “typsy-two suit motherfucka in a three suit package.”

Playing a fucking moron who is in-universe LARPing a black man is one of the most rewarding RPs I’ve ever done.

“COME ON OUT YOU BUGGY BITCHES, NON’ US FRAID TO DIE!”

“Son, I ain’t gonna kid you. I’m more focused on throwing some of them bugs in the gumbo than survivin today.”
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Nice. That honestly sounds really fucking hilarious to play with. Sounds like the whole group was laughing.
 
Kup said:
“Never go full retard”

Since we’re talking retard characters, I once played through the entirety of an AvP campaign as this man.
View attachment 2746314
Sergeant Lincoln Osiris, Colonial Marines.

Didn’t hesitate to make race an issue in Alien vs Predator, at one point he got his squad through a particularly dangerous encounter with a corporate exec by screaming her down as a bigot and calling her a “typsy-two suit motherfucka in a three suit package.”

Playing a fucking moron who is in-universe LARPing a black man is one of the most rewarding RPs I’ve ever done.

“COME ON OUT YOU BUGGY BITCHES, NON’ US FRAID TO DIE!”

“Son, I ain’t gonna kid you. I’m more focused on throwing some of them bugs in the gumbo than survivin today.”
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Did you use flow charts the game (AKA Aliens the RPG), or another system?

Just wondering. Still, absolutely fun thing to do, and I love it.
 
Adamska said:
Did you use flow charts the game (AKA Aliens the RPG), or another system?

Just wondering. Still, absolutely fun thing to do, and I love it.
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No, he used some modified Dark Heresy systems. He just soft-reskinned the roster of enemies, removed any corruption system/psykers and used the crazy options the systems allows for to deliver the full armory. For example, Predators were pretty much just Space Marines in terms of rules.

It was pretty decent, for a homebrew cooked up by one guy.
 
Kup said:
No, he used some modified Dark Heresy systems. He just soft-reskinned the roster of enemies, removed any corruption system/psykers and used the crazy options the systems allows for to deliver the full armory. For example, Predators were pretty much just Space Marines in terms of rules.

It was pretty decent, for a homebrew cooked up by one guy.
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Before Free Worlds did their game, I considered Dark Heresy and GURPS for it. While the old Aliens game was neat, it literally requires a string of table consultations to solve a problem.
 
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