Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

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The left, being authoritarian, can't conceive that a system that compels labor from the unwilling is ultimately self-destructing. A slave only works as hard as they need to avoid the lash.

Also just makes me wonder, what the Ottomans are getting up do now that the CSA isn't competing with them for blacks.

Slavery is not self-destructing; only in the last two centuries has slavery been formally abolished throughout the world, and it was only accomplished because the few nations which truly believed in abolitionism also happened to dominate the entire planet by the end of the 19th century. Even so, traditional forms of slavery continued to be practiced in parts of China, Nigeria, Brazil, the Philippines, and the Sahel well into the 20th century.

Speaking of the Sahel, Ottoman slaves were more likely to be sourced from there and Africa's east coast than the Congo and the Bight of Benin, which is where the Europeans imported their New World slaves from, not that they had done so for a long time, since the British navy had been seizing suspected slave ships since the early part of the century. By the time the US Civil War had broken out, slave imports from Africa to Brazil, Cuba, and the United States had slowed to almost nothing, with the Brazilians, not the Americans, being the last to end their participation in the transatlantic slave trade (and they only did so reluctantly, after the British threatened to start seizing ports which were known to be accepting slave ships). This is a long way of saying that the market value of Turkish slaves wouldn't change much.

When a game creator develops not one but several new languages & scripts + writes a cosmology as autistically complete as Tolkien, I'll view "My world" as a valid argument.

The only game creator I know of who did that was MAR Barker, and he was not nearly as possessive of Tekumel as Hensley is of the Deadlands. He had a canonical idea of what Tekumel was, but he made it clear in his writings that players were free to make whatever alterations they wanted - there are many branches on the Tree of Time. It's hard to imagine him getting redfaced and screaming "It's mine and no one else's!" if someone told him about a major deviation from the canon that happened in a home game.
 
A bit off-topic from me gettiing blackpilled on one of my favourite designers (Thanks a lot, Shane. Get fucked), but I noticed some people here have played stuff like Monsterhearts. Can anyone give me the tl;dr of how this stuff works? 'cause I'm trying to read through PbtA for like, the fourth time in my life, and I just don't understand it. I really don't get it. I've tried asking on a Discord I used to be a part of, but of course, if you express any actual confusion or point out how something seems to be, you just don't get it and you're not really asking in good faith.
How do things like combat and scenes actually resolve? Someone said to me 'Well, what does the fiction say?' but I just don't understand how that's applied. In something like Monsterhearts, and I'm surrounded by eeeevil vampire hunters or something, who have me dead to rights (at gunpoint, one false move, pow).

What happens if I want to do something? If I'm rolling I'm gonna wreck it! to kill the main guy, I roll 10+, I get what I want without any issue. What happens then? Does the GM just have the ability to say 'Actually, they shoot you first, take x Harm' or do you just keep rolling per hunter until they're all dead or you roll 6 or less? Do GMs have moves they use in response, because I can't seem them rolling dice for nearly anything?

I've only properly played Blades in the Dark, which is a fairly decent PbtA-adjacent game and that generally handles such things with Elite enemies (When you try to act against them, they just get something which goes off before you even get your chance to resolve - the master fencer disarms you with ease., or the shadowy assassin can throw knives fast enogh to suppress people getting closer and potentially harm you as you get close. Want to spend Stress to Resist?) but I can't see anything like this in ApocWorld, DungeonWorld, Monsterhearts, etc.
From what I'm seeing the dice just come about when there's chances for failures, and the complications are in fact directed by the situation at hand and the GM's discretion. Success with a cost can mean anything, and I think the book just expects the GM to come up with it themselves usually. So like if you shot a guy, you did in fact hurt them and possibly killed them, but you left yourself open to fire or flanking by another dude.

Combat is usually resolved by moves yes, but most of them being written for baby brains have social activity as combat too. Either way you roll when you can flub up. As for the GM's stuff having moves? I don't think they figured it out, but I'm assuming that the answer is yes since PbtA seems to be "character" driven.

I dislike the system to be honest. I've disliked every single book I've seen with it.
 
A bit off-topic from me gettiing blackpilled on one of my favourite designers (Thanks a lot, Shane. Get fucked)
Glad I could help.

but I noticed some people here have played stuff like Monsterhearts. Can anyone give me the tl;dr of how this stuff works? 'cause I'm trying to read through PbtA for like, the fourth time in my life, and I just don't understand it. I really don't get it. I've tried asking on a Discord I used to be a part of, but of course, if you express any actual confusion or point out how something seems to be, you just don't get it and you're not really asking in good faith.
How do things like combat and scenes actually resolve? Someone said to me 'Well, what does the fiction say?' but I just don't understand how that's applied. In something like Monsterhearts, and I'm surrounded by eeeevil vampire hunters or something, who have me dead to rights (at gunpoint, one false move, pow).

What happens if I want to do something? If I'm rolling I'm gonna wreck it! to kill the main guy, I roll 10+, I get what I want without any issue. What happens then? Does the GM just have the ability to say 'Actually, they shoot you first, take x Harm' or do you just keep rolling per hunter until they're all dead or you roll 6 or less? Do GMs have moves they use in response, because I can't seem them rolling dice for nearly anything?

I've only properly played Blades in the Dark, which is a fairly decent PbtA-adjacent game and that generally handles such things with Elite enemies (When you try to act against them, they just get something which goes off before you even get your chance to resolve - the master fencer disarms you with ease., or the shadowy assassin can throw knives fast enogh to suppress people getting closer and potentially harm you as you get close. Want to spend Stress to Resist?) but I can't see anything like this in ApocWorld, DungeonWorld, Monsterhearts, etc.

You need to rework your TTG mind for PbtA. It sounds like you are having a lot of the problems I did wrapping my head around PbtA.

At the core, PtbA is a narrative game for people who are insecure about playing a narrative RPG. So it fits the need for Theater Majors to feel like they're playing a real RPG with dice rolls, but it is actually a story game that really just does whatever it is they want to do.

The dice rolls are also very bad. I did a break down on PbtA probabilities in my post here:

So lets start by tossing everything you're expecting from a TTRPG in the garbage. There are dice and characters and PbtA stops being like any other TTG there. PbtA is a storytelling game for people who don't want to seem gay and have to admit they are playing a narrative game.
Each PbtA game isn't a "system" or even a clone or derivative as we think about them with Pathfinder or LotFP - PbtA are more like modules. Most of them aren't intended to have replay beyond a single session.

Specifically for Monster Hearts, don't think of it as a game. Think of it as you sitting down with people to collectively make up a season of a trashy CW series about a highschool full of supernatural teens. (I believe that one was also made by a tranny coomer, so the underaged sex and lots of faggotry is a feature not a bug.) You don't even need the dice, really. The dice are just there to help everyone feel like they aren't just purely playing pretend.
If this doesn't sound like the thing you are into, then that is why.

There is PbtA system called "Simple World" which is about as close to an SRD for PbtA as you'll find. Look that one up, and it might help you understand the rest of the spawn.

But at the end of the day, PbtA is a stupid game for stupid people.
There is no progression, no real rules, no crunch, its really a bunch of guidelines. Its a stupid game.
The game only requires 2 d6's, and the half sheet of paper with "moves" - the things your character can do. Because its almost all narrative, you can play it drunk or high. Its for stupid people.

This doesn't mean a stupid game for stupid people is bad. There are plenty of fun stupid games for stupid people, like Paranoia and Kobolds Ate My Baby. PbtA are not those games, because they almost always take themselves too serious because there is important SOCIAL MESSAGES.

How do things like combat and scenes actually resolve? Someone said to me 'Well, what does the fiction say?' but I just don't understand how that's applied. In something like Monsterhearts, and I'm surrounded by eeeevil vampire hunters or something, who have me dead to rights (at gunpoint, one false move, pow).

What happens if I want to do something? If I'm rolling I'm gonna wreck it! to kill the main guy, I roll 10+, I get what I want without any issue. What happens then? Does the GM just have the ability to say 'Actually, they shoot you first, take x Harm' or do you just keep rolling per hunter until they're all dead or you roll 6 or less? Do GMs have moves they use in response, because I can't seem them rolling dice for nearly anything?

They resolve however the DM (& Table) decide they resolve.
So the DM says "You are surrounded by vampire hunters" - you don't need to roll combat. You could roll one of your social powers and then say "The leader of the hunters is my brother!" and now you have a thread on him (or whatever term they use for social currency).
The resolution is supposed to be "interesting" (dramatic) and not realistic. So if you lose, the DM might just say another character saves you and now they have a thread on you.

The DM can only say if an action is impossible, or might otherwise alter your narration (though that is discouraged).

You are, like I was, thinking too hard about it.

tl;dr: PbtA is a narrative story game trying to pretend its not. Don't play PbtA and stop being friends with anyone who wants you to play with them. Play something like Paranoia instead, the rules matter about as much, but you'll actually have fun with Paranoia.
 
Where's their sense of wonder, their desire to be heroic? To be awesome?
If their characters are heroic then it reminds them that they're complete losers who won't be remembered after they die as soon as someone throws their FunCo Pops in a landfill.

They don't have a sense of wonder because their parents told them Santa wasn't real when they were three.

Their joyless childless weirdos.

If their characters are heroic, that means they might fail, and that's unacceptable.

If their characters are awesome, it reminds them that they're losers.

If things are wondrous it doesn't provide escapism, it just reminds them that all the $1000 tattoos, FunCo Pops, and Bad Dragon Dildos aren't filling that hole inside of them.

---------

My Rifts gamers are almost completely weaned off of D&D and how D&D thinks. It isn't "oh, I only have these powers, the bad guys are more powerful than me..." it's "MOAR DAKKA!"

In D&D if they were outnumbered or the encounter felt 'out of balance' (I am SO sick of hearing about game balance. Take that 'balance' and shove it up your fucking asses) the players knew they were fucked.

While Rifts has hit point sponges, you can just get bigger guns. Or more friends with guns.

They also have shed the "oh, we used some powers/took some damage, we better REST" attitude. They were scouting a way through the edge of a city and a suburb, going back, and escorting the refugees. By the time they got back, they were almost out of ammo, the guy from Psy-Corps was out of ISP, and their armor was all down to single digit or low teens in MDC. Their two robot jocks were piloting stumbling junk almost out of ammo. (We use the damage table from inside the Conversion book so that they suffer mechanical failures in addition to MDC. So why the Silver Eagle armor's arms and legs still had good double-digit MDC, there was multiple system failures in each limb that needed time in Third Shop)

When the CO told them "Grab more ammo, grab new armor, we've got a priority rescue beacon" the only worried person was the Psy-Corps trooper, and he just doubled up on the ammo. The armor's glitches got repaired and some slap patches so they've got some MDC back and only minor failures. They weren't worried at all. They were fine with the fact that they've got pressure on them because I allow them to do heroic shit like literally wave the American flag over their heads while shooting demons in the face with a rail gun they're holding one handed as artillery goes off and the MRLS wagons are firing.

It's nice to see them having fun. I asked them if they wanted to go back to D&D and got a resounding "NO!" from them.

"My character has a Boom Gun that can blow apart a sky scraper. I shot a fucking GOD in the eye. Why do I want to go back to shitty fireballs?"
 
Slavery is not self-destructing; only in the last two centuries has slavery been formally abolished throughout the world, and it was only accomplished because the few nations which truly believed in abolitionism also happened to dominate the entire planet by the end of the 19th century. Even so, traditional forms of slavery continued to be practiced in parts of China, Nigeria, Brazil, the Philippines, and the Sahel well into the 20th century.

Speaking of the Sahel, Ottoman slaves were more likely to be sourced from there and Africa's east coast than the Congo and the Bight of Benin, which is where the Europeans imported their New World slaves from, not that they had done so for a long time, since the British navy had been seizing suspected slave ships since the early part of the century. By the time the US Civil War had broken out, slave imports from Africa to Brazil, Cuba, and the United States had slowed to almost nothing, with the Brazilians, not the Americans, being the last to end their participation in the transatlantic slave trade (and they only did so reluctantly, after the British threatened to start seizing ports which were known to be accepting slave ships). This is a long way of saying that the market value of Turkish slaves wouldn't change much.

Buddy be careful least you activate my autism card.

Slavery is self-defeating because slaves hade no stake and make up a significant portion of the population. You can look at the two longest-lasting slavery-dependent states - The Ottoman Empire and The Roman Empire - and see they were able to last as long as they did because they managed to find ways around that problem - for a while.

The Romans gave their slaves a path to freedom; there was merit in being a good and productive slave, because it means you might get not just your freedom but full roman citizenship. This put off the implosion caused by slavery, but in the end the reliance of slavery in food production retarded technological innovation that left the whole labor-intensive enterprise to collapse once the wheels started to come off.

The Ottomans outsourced the running of the empire to slaves. Slavery was not hereditary, and slaves had rights. Slaves could have money and were traditionally paid wages, and if you were slave and were aware of a master willing to buy you and pay you more, you could bring your master to court to force the transaction.

Regarding competing markets.
Ottomans had suzerainty (that is, they didn't actually the means to enforce the their will but everyone acted like they did because they didn't want to fuck around and find out, since a couple rulers who DID fuck around found out that while the Ottomans couldn't do anything to them directly, they outsource their punishment) over nearly the entirety of the top half of Africa until the 1700/1800s and European colonial efforts.
True, congolese didn't make their way to turkey, but they filled the slave rolls in the western territories, which allowed for more inventory to flow eastward. Rising tides and all boats and the like.
Something something Ottoman slave market mortality rates of 70% something
More slaves were passing through nominally Ottoman markets a year after the Ottomans banned slavery due to British pressure than were shipped to north america - total.

Anyway, If we keep going, you'll be activating my austism and I'm going be asking you to define "Slave" and "Slavery".
Because the traditional slavery in Nigeria and China (and India) is of a whole different beast than what is traditionally thought of when people from the US & EU think of slavery.
 
A bit off-topic from me gettiing blackpilled on one of my favourite designers (Thanks a lot, Shane. Get fucked), but I noticed some people here have played stuff like Monsterhearts. Can anyone give me the tl;dr of how this stuff works?

I made a few posts about Monsterhearts v1 (the only good PbTA game) on a previous account, but I can give you a quick overview.

99% of the time, PbTA doesn't work. That's because it's incredibly easy to make a PbTA game, but it's incredibly hard to do it well. If it works, it's focused on exactly one thing and it uses what little mechanics it has for that thing.

Monsterhearts focuses on being a teen monster and it works. You're a teen, basically a stupid monster with no self-control, and at the same time, you're a mythological monster (as a bonus, you can easily play Monsterhearts with the monsters being a metaphor, not literal). And the mechanics support that, since there's no mechanics for actually doing good or being a nice person. You play a piece of shit and the other PCs are also pieces of shit. (To be exact, there's Grown-up Moves you can pick up as advances if you're experienced enough, but a game typically wouldn't last long enough.)

Now take a shitty PbTA game: Thirsty Sword Lesbians: the book has sections on 'what if I don't want swords?', 'what if I don't want lesbians?', 'what if I don't want them to be thirsty?'. Every part of the thing the game supposedly about is optional.

So, if you picked up Monsterhearts, the one PbTA game I know actually works, you're on the road to making PbTA work. But you're not there yet. First you have to realize, the game needs to be PvP. Not because Monsterhearts is about dumb shitheads who can't ever get along, but because NPCs don't matter in PbTA and every attempt to make them matter has been dogshit. The only meaningful opposition a PC can encounter is either another PC or GM fiat.

And the game being PvP is ok, since it's always short. There isn't enough advancement mechanics to make the game last more than 3-4 sessions.

In theory, a good PbTA game is laser-focused on a single thing and all the mechanics revolve around that thing with nothing superfluous. In practice, this never happens because anyone can shit out four moves and four playbooks, call it a PbTA game and call themselves a game designer. And if by a miracle, it happens (Monsterhearts v1), it will not last (Monsterhearts v2).

If a PbTA game has more than one resource to manage and a combat system more complicated than you beat him up/he beats you up, it's bad. If a PbTA game feels the need to explain that you can just fade to black and not roleplay sex scenes, it was made with the assumption that the players are retarded and it's bad.
 
I don't know, played "Monsterhearts" two times, and both times are a complete shitshow. The second time in special ended with my character getting "tag: Mind Break" BAD END hentai because a bad roll. I shit you not. Never NOPE'd so hard from a game and blocked everyone who played with me.

That shit about trannies and sex moves brings the worst That Guy and That GM for your games. And only played Mutants & Masterminds 2e/3e after that, because Math and Comic Book used to repel weird freaks. But Green Ronin complete drinked all kool aid in the new books for 3e. Now i just a No Game.
 
I don't know, played "Monsterhearts" two times, and both times are a complete shitshow. The second time in special ended with my character getting "tag: Mind Break" BAD END hentai because a bad roll. I shit you not. Never NOPE'd so hard from a game and blocked everyone who played with me.

That shit about trannies and sex moves brings the worst That Guy and That GM for your games. And only played Mutants & Masterminds 2e/3e after that, because Math and Comic Book used to repel weird freaks. But Green Ronin complete drinked all kool aid in the new books for 3e. Now i just a No Game.
What did Green Ronin do? What's some of the worst?
 
But Green Ronin complete drinked all kool aid in the new books for 3e. Now i just a No Game.
Do what now with 3e books? M&M 3e is one of our two most played systems....
 
Buddy be careful least you activate my autism card.

Slavery is self-defeating because slaves hade no stake and make up a significant portion of the population. You can look at the two longest-lasting slavery-dependent states - The Ottoman Empire and The Roman Empire - and see they were able to last as long as they did because they managed to find ways around that problem - for a while.

The Romans gave their slaves a path to freedom; there was merit in being a good and productive slave, because it means you might get not just your freedom but full roman citizenship. This put off the implosion caused by slavery, but in the end the reliance of slavery in food production retarded technological innovation that left the whole labor-intensive enterprise to collapse once the wheels started to come off.

The Ottomans outsourced the running of the empire to slaves. Slavery was not hereditary, and slaves had rights. Slaves could have money and were traditionally paid wages, and if you were slave and were aware of a master willing to buy you and pay you more, you could bring your master to court to force the transaction.

Regarding competing markets.
Ottomans had suzerainty (that is, they didn't actually the means to enforce the their will but everyone acted like they did because they didn't want to fuck around and find out, since a couple rulers who DID fuck around found out that while the Ottomans couldn't do anything to them directly, they outsource their punishment) over nearly the entirety of the top half of Africa until the 1700/1800s and European colonial efforts.
True, congolese didn't make their way to turkey, but they filled the slave rolls in the western territories, which allowed for more inventory to flow eastward. Rising tides and all boats and the like.
Something something Ottoman slave market mortality rates of 70% something
More slaves were passing through nominally Ottoman markets a year after the Ottomans banned slavery due to British pressure than were shipped to north america - total.

Anyway, If we keep going, you'll be activating my austism and I'm going be asking you to define "Slave" and "Slavery".
Because the traditional slavery in Nigeria and China (and India) is of a whole different beast than what is traditionally thought of when people from the US & EU think of slavery.
A post about slavery across history and various cultures sounds super interesting though.
 
As for PbtA games, the only one I enjoyed was one of the first: Dungeon World. Then again, it was so full of D&D isms that it was easy to get into, and I was playing with hilarious, totally based bastards who were always trying to kill each other’s characters for laughs. Playing with the right people can make or break a game experience for sure. But Dungeon World was pretty decent and it was baked into the rules that the DM could arbitrarily go “fuck it, the Mimic just bit your arm off”.

The game is forgotten now because one of the authors (not Sage, the other guy with pink hair and a beard) got cancelled for DMing an awkward robot sex scene or something on YouTube.
 
Buddy be careful least you activate my autism card.

Slavery is self-defeating because slaves hade no stake and make up a significant portion of the population. You can look at the two longest-lasting slavery-dependent states - The Ottoman Empire and The Roman Empire - and see they were able to last as long as they did because they managed to find ways around that problem - for a while.

The Romans gave their slaves a path to freedom; there was merit in being a good and productive slave, because it means you might get not just your freedom but full roman citizenship. This put off the implosion caused by slavery, but in the end the reliance of slavery in food production retarded technological innovation that left the whole labor-intensive enterprise to collapse once the wheels started to come off.

The Ottomans outsourced the running of the empire to slaves. Slavery was not hereditary, and slaves had rights. Slaves could have money and were traditionally paid wages, and if you were slave and were aware of a master willing to buy you and pay you more, you could bring your master to court to force the transaction.
I am out of my depth here because my knowledge of antiquity is limited, but other quite ancient societies in the Mediterranean and Near East practiced various forms of slavery and, as far as I know, there isn't any correlation between their longevity and the well-being of their slaves. It seems to me that the numerous civil wars, initiated by ambitious generals and officers, did more damage to the state than indolent farmers, and that resultant social instability retarded technological development. I would also point out that slavery did not self-destruct either during or after the empire, but survived in its descendants until the 1880s.
Regarding competing markets.
Ottomans had suzerainty (that is, they didn't actually the means to enforce the their will but everyone acted like they did because they didn't want to fuck around and find out, since a couple rulers who DID fuck around found out that while the Ottomans couldn't do anything to them directly, they outsource their punishment) over nearly the entirety of the top half of Africa until the 1700/1800s and European colonial efforts.
True, congolese didn't make their way to turkey, but they filled the slave rolls in the western territories, which allowed for more inventory to flow eastward. Rising tides and all boats and the like.
Something something Ottoman slave market mortality rates of 70% something
More slaves were passing through nominally Ottoman markets a year after the Ottomans banned slavery due to British pressure than were shipped to north america - total.
You are right about inventory being freed up along the Berber coast, but you missed my other, more important point, which was that the Civil War in the United States wouldn't have any direct impact on the slave trade in the Ottoman Empire because slaves were not being exported to the Americas in any real numbers by the middle of the 1800s thanks to British interdiction.
Anyway, If we keep going, you'll be activating my austism and I'm going be asking you to define "Slave" and "Slavery".
Because the traditional slavery in Nigeria and China (and India) is of a whole different beast than what is traditionally thought of when people from the US & EU think of slavery.
Off the top of my noggin I would say that a slave is a person who has a legal or social status which varies between a dead person's and that of an inanimate object. Like the dead, slaves sometimes have rights, but in many cases they must be defended by the state or third parties, and the only legitimate action they can take to defend themselves is to complain to the authorities (if they exist - slaves were SOL in some societies). A slave can be compelled to go wherever and do whatever the master orders them to (within the bounds of the law). Their connection to their kin is partially or totally severed, with the master assuming some of the responsibilities of the family or clan, such as providing food, housing, and mates. This is a very broad and leaky definition which won't hold up to a Socratic blowtorch, but there you go.
 
Off the top of my noggin I would say that a slave is a person who has a legal or social status which varies between a dead person's and that of an inanimate object. Like the dead, slaves sometimes have rights, but in many cases they must be defended by the state or third parties, and the only legitimate action they can take to defend themselves is to complain to the authorities (if they exist - slaves were SOL in some societies). A slave can be compelled to go wherever and do whatever the master orders them to (within the bounds of the law). Their connection to their kin is partially or totally severed, with the master assuming some of the responsibilities of the family or clan, such as providing food, housing, and mates. This is a very broad and leaky definition which won't hold up to a Socratic blowtorch, but there you go.

By your definition, " a person who has a legal or social status which varies between a dead person's and that of an inanimate object" there was no slavery except in Russia, Mongols, Japan, the Vikings, I guess technically Brazil. Aztecs and Inca, strictly speaking, and other indians. Otherwise, everyone who wasn't Royalty was a slave - which is not an incorrect stance to take.

Japan while the population had about zero rights, the slave population was primary prisoners (convicts or war captives) and had pretty much negative rights. Your slaves are almost always an "outside" population, and Japan is.
Mongols included all Mongols in a class above anyone else, everyone else was varying levels of dog.
The Vikings had Thralls, who were often war prisoners, though delving into human war booty gets tricky - this problem plagues the Aztecs and Inca as well. Mostly though they were traders who sold to the islamic states for steel. Its hard to unpack thrallery because the vikings didn't write a lot about it and most of the accounts are 3rd party who often had an axe to grind.
Brazil also had extreme stratification, where you had slaves being treated as practically disposable. While there were legal protections for slaves, the slaves were off in the jungle with no access to them, and none of the value that protected slaves in the US south. There was no Portuguese CSI showing up to investigate, and slaves were needing to be replaced at a fairly regular pace so there were no questions to be asked. (The US south also had some the same issues, however unlike Brazil there was economic incentives for not mistreating your slaves.)

"Wait, but in Rome a slave owner could have a slave put to death no questions ask" You say. Except the Partriarch of a family could have any member of his household, including his children and his wife put to death (unless she was connected) also with no questions asked. Slaves had about the same rights as a living person there.

Taking Slavery's All-Stars, the Ottomans, slaves had significant rights. The Ottoman word for the people in south-eastern europe and the caucuses is "Slav" from which we get the word "Slave". The Arab-run Islamic governments quickly decided early on that White Supremacy was real (Ok they just decided that Arabs are the worst race) and rather than trust the running of government to shiftless dunecoons, they instead would collect young boys as slaves, convert them to islam, and then educate them to be Government Workers as they would be loyal to the sultan and not to a family that even if they remembered them, would be hundreds or thousands of miles away.
But unless they were mine workers from africa, slaves had significant rights in both the civil courts and under religious law (in theory). So your definition immediately excludes the #1 slave trading and slave owning culture.

Slavery is like obscenity "I know it when I see it", but also like obscenity the definition is very fluid. And also like obscenity, no matter what the definition you give, there is going to be an example out there that doesn't fit the letter of your definition but you're going to look at it and say "They are clearly slaves".

" A slave can be compelled to go wherever and do whatever the master orders them to (within the bounds of the law). Their connection to their kin is partially or totally severed, with the master assuming some of the responsibilities of the family or clan."
So are you saying US Marines are slaves?
(I'm dropping off the point about mates because my nigga....seriously that doesn't even hold water in the US south unless you're reading schlickfic)

I am out of my depth here because my knowledge of antiquity is limited, but other quite ancient societies in the Mediterranean and Near East practiced various forms of slavery and, as far as I know, there isn't any correlation between their longevity and the well-being of their slaves. It seems to me that the numerous civil wars, initiated by ambitious generals and officers, did more damage to the state than indolent farmers, and that resultant social instability retarded technological development. I would also point out that slavery did not self-destruct either during or after the empire, but survived in its descendants until the 1880s.
You've got a misunderstanding. Because Mesopotamia slavery, while under harsher conditions, the difference between a slave and a free person was often just a question of "is this the area you grew up in?" (and even then....)

When going into this next part, I like to start by bringing up Nate Turner account his first contact with white sharecroppers. Nate Turner, for the unaware, was a slave in virginia who lead a revolt. He was pretty clearly schizophrenic or psychotic and believed he needed to kill every white person he could to trigger a race war that would result in the end of slavery and all the blacks going back to Africa. After killing several white farmers, Nate and his band encountered a new breed of white: Sharecroppers. He saw that the white share croppers lived worse than the slaves did, and so his race war band left them alone and went on to slaughter a few more wealthy white families.

Now, not to go all existential, but there is always compelled labor. No man is truly free, etc. Even if you live alone on in the jungle, if you want to live you're going to have to do some hard work. Every society needs an underclass to do the dirty jobs - one either forms naturally or it is created. So what we need to focus on is the delta between slave free, that is "How much worse off a slave from the average shlub?" or another way "if a slave were to be freed, what changes?"

For example in Rome, a free slave was citizen and could vote, but usually not much changed. In most cases, slaves usually continued to work for their same masters, doing pretty much what they were doing before. Now I should also specify that the slaves we hear tales about are urban slaves and not the ones being worked to death on the frontier farms.

So going back to Mesopotamia, while societies there had slaves, the slaves didn't live that much different than free people. That is, Massa-hotep wasn't really all that concerned about you escaping because you didn't have anywhere better to go. You likely wouldn't get far. Slaves were allowed to own property. They were allowed to run businesses and side-hustles. The children of slaves were not slaves. Slaves were also a minority of the population; every society needs an underclass. You also couldn't be killed - but again, if you turn up dead with a 'Property of Massa-hotep' dagger in your heart and clutching a blood-spattered a cuneiform tablet scribed with "LO I SAY AS I SCRIBE THIS WITH MY STYLUS I AM BEING MURDERED BY MY OWNER", there is no Bronze-Age CSI and the official cause of death will be "Angered the Harvest Goddess & was smote".

And all those mideast cultures were toppled, by stronger outside forces, all of them with less reliance on slavery, until the Arabs and Ottomans bucked the trend for a while; but again, Arab/Ottoman slavery and Byzantine slavery were different beasts. Slaves generally preferred the Prophet botherers due to the protections slaves had under Islamic law from mistreatment ... until the general level of human condition raised, and there started to be a gulf between Slaves and Freed again.

A society that depends on slavery doesn't innovate and is eventually toppled.

Bringing this back around to the point of this autistic slap fight and my digression about Nate Turner, in the US South in the 1860s there was little gap between "Slave" and "Free" at the very bottom rungs of society. In some ways it was worse to not be a slave, because Massa fed his slaves (at the cheapest per-unit cost, which is why Soul Food focuses on pork includes things like collard greens and a collagen slurry made from boiling down pig anus) but in general, quality of life was improving and developments in industrialization were starting to make slavery an economic loser. The gulf between "slave" and "free" was rising, and would eventually be untenable as once freedom became universally preferable to slavery and it was known among the slaves, you wouldn't be able to keep your enslaved population contained and able to work. Even if the civil war never happened, the 13th amendment was "no state shall be forced to end slavery", probably within 50 years slavery in the US would have effectively ended and collapsed.

You are right about inventory being freed up along the Berber coast, but you missed my other, more important point, which was that the Civil War in the United States wouldn't have any direct impact on the slave trade in the Ottoman Empire because slaves were not being exported to the Americas in any real numbers by the middle of the 1800s thanks to British interdiction.

Ah I gotcha. I'm not saying that the American Civil War would have caused an uptick in Ottoman slave importing, but the restriction of the Atlantic slave trade during the lead up to would have. Mainly just a shit post how every wokie loses their mind about 300,000 slaves in the US while hand waving the 8 million going to Brazil and completely ignoring the Ottomans.

And if we're going full geopolitics, given the economic interests involved, you've got Britain, and also partly France, in a very uncomfortable position - being that Britain was militantly anti-slavery (because that's our colonies' free labor that you're exporting!) and France was also anti-slavery for pretty much the same reasons, but with both having very solid reasons for backing the confederacy.

Which I guess actually if you want to continue the Civil Forever war, but don't want to have to deal with the issue of slavery (hell, I can see non-woke 'we don't want games to descend into agrument about racial politics' reasons for that) there's your way out Britain demands the CSA outlaw slavery in exchange for continued support.
 
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As for PbtA games, the only one I enjoyed was one of the first: Dungeon World. Then again, it was so full of D&D isms that it was easy to get into, and I was playing with hilarious, totally based bastards who were always trying to kill each other’s characters for laughs. Playing with the right people can make or break a game experience for sure. But Dungeon World was pretty decent and it was baked into the rules that the DM could arbitrarily go “fuck it, the Mimic just bit your arm off”.

The game is forgotten now because one of the authors (not Sage, the other guy with pink hair and a beard) got cancelled for DMing an awkward robot sex scene or something on YouTube.

Dungeon world was a good idea but shit execution. Dungeon World is the TTRPG equivalent one of those books that purports to teach creative writing by syaing "creatively write using this autistic formula" without understanding precisely why that won't work.

Its too autistic to do a quick dungeon romp, because you have HP and stats and spell slots, but not nearly autistic enough to make a real campaign out of since the progression system is lacking. You are supposed to move through three scenes and fight a boss. Which tbf is roughly how other RPs are designed, but DW doesn't have a lot of good mechanisms for altering this flow.

Though again, as you said, a lot of the flaws with dungeon world or most PbtA are fixed by just having the right group. Though tbf when you get the right group together and you don't even need a system or dice, but getting that on a regular basis is about as easy as canning unicorn farts. So you need a system that contains or at least redirects the energies of a less than perfect group, and keeps everyone in more-or-less alignment. Which PbtA clones do a shit job at.
 
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