Tabletop Community Watch

[Welsh Catgirl Enjoyer]

Reading through the last few replies has some good perspective.

The DM who stealth-nerfed my character sheet, I really should have called him out on it earlier. Took me a while until I was like "hold on a second, tabletops are based on a trust system, so being deceptive or lying is one of the worst things you can do". I assume that he was trying to avoid making an OP character, but that usually takes a lot more than good base stats.

The other one for my Saturday game is a pretty new DM, but I actually think a lot of the issues comes from the approach. And is a cautionary tale perhaps. It feels like it's probably more of a fanfiction that you get to go along on the ride, if you're lucky, then you're a main character and your parents just so happen to be super important and everyone knows you. If you're not, well, you get to carry the other characters luggage. The lack of combat encounters exacerbates the issue because they at least served as a distraction (sure, you might not be the face, but at least you get fancy spells).

Going to be tricky to talk to both DMs tbh. I like them both as mates but one of them doesn't have a backbone and the other one is kinda easy to get upset over things and have that take over.

 

[Hummingbird]

(Taken from the Bikini Armor Battle Damage thread.) It appears the reason people don't like that silly wizard school RPG with it's magic prom is because they hate media with plot and substance. The big gatekeeping meanies.

 

[Ghostse]

The other one for my Saturday game is a pretty new DM, but I actually think a lot of the issues comes from the approach. And is a cautionary tale perhaps. It feels like it's probably more of a fanfiction that you get to go along on the ride, if you're lucky, then you're a main character and your parents just so happen to be super important and everyone knows you. If you're not, well, you get to carry the other characters luggage. The lack of combat encounters exacerbates the issue because they at least served as a distraction (sure, you might not be the face, but at least you get fancy spells).

Being new goes along with @EnemyStand saying the GM is "trying something different" and its not working.
My early GM experience had... not exactly DM PCs, but the players were definitely on rails and just experiencing the story I had for them, and NPCs driving action on a lot of 'Big' issues (which is fine in doses). Part of that is any good GM is shamelessly stealing from stories they encounter, and especially starting out its hard to translate a traditional narrator-focused narrative into character-focused one - especially in D&D where characters can die.

Going to be tricky to talk to both DMs tbh. I like them both as mates but one of them doesn't have a backbone and the other one is kinda easy to get upset over things and have that take over.

The player I am done playing TTRPGs after this campaign will I still consider a friend, and will still play board games with them(though will probably need a cool-off period to get fully over their shit). We just have incompatible ideas about what makes a fun free-form game.

As much as we make fun of "Spoons"-claiming tumblr fibrofaggots, I would advise you pick one of the DMs and work through things with them first. If you start discussions with multiple DMs, you may end up getting angry at one of them for something that isn't their fault. And be willing to accept that you and the DM may not be able to find a mutually acceptable compromise; don't let something good die without a fight, don't go right to the nuclear option on the first hurdle, but do be willing to accept the best solution for everyone may be to shake hands and not play D&D together.

(Taken from the Bikini Armor Battle Damage thread.) It appears the reason people don't like that silly wizard school RPG with it's magic prom is because they hate media with plot and substance. The big gatekeeping meanies.

"But, what stands out to me is how every one of these images captures a spirit of fantasy adventure, that focuses on the adventure itself."
... Nigga you WHAT?

The referenced images:

None of those images capture any adventure except maybe the first one. Its mostly people standing/sitting around and talking.

 

[EnemyStand]

"But, what stands out to me is how every one of these images captures a spirit of fantasy adventure, that focuses on the adventure itself."
... Nigga you WHAT?

The referenced images:
View attachment 3072541View attachment 3072544View attachment 3072546

None of those images capture any adventure except maybe the first one. Its mostly people standing/sitting around and talking.

Honestly, these idiots think going to corner store because they're out of milk is an adventure. I wouldn't put much store in what they consider "adventuring" is.

 

[Wormy]

(Taken from the Bikini Armor Battle Damage thread.) It appears the reason people don't like that silly wizard school RPG with it's magic prom is because they hate media with plot and substance. The big gatekeeping meanies.

Nobody likes anything that isn't Dungeons and Dragons, duh. Chasing their tail as usual.

 

[Retink]

Honestly, these idiots think going to corner store because they're out of milk is an adventure. I wouldn't put much store in what they consider "adventuring" is.

I think what really shows how devoid these people are of creativity is when they attempt to be creative they come up with a setting like a wizards school that mimics our own reality as it has proms, defined teachers, etc. That kind of setting is absolute shit in a franchise like D&D and MtG where the setting is normally on a grander scale and there's a ton of exploration to be had into how the world works.

I was even thinking about how they could make a school work in a world like Magic, and I then I realized they had already done it, all the way back when they published the Ice Age novels as they had the Wizards College in one of those books. What made the Wizards College different was that it wasn't a traditional school where you go to classes, it was more of an traditional concept of a college where you could go learn shit but also to research and build new shit. So it wasn't a class or a prom, it was a bunch of mages doing their thing and having parties every now and then, but if you fucked up on a project they'd break your fingers because they weren't projects in the sense of a book report but rather they were projects that would actually create something useful.

That's what I think the major difference is, the Wizards College still had a ton of exploration of ideas and felt like a large and dangerous place, while the story also incorporated more locations in the world than just the college, such as the Church of Tal, the neighboring peasant towns that wanted to shank the mages for being witches, and so on. The modern school setting on the other hand, such as Harry Potter doesn't work for a large and diverse world, it works for a small story because at the end of the day Harry Potter is a story about a very small group of people whereas something like The Lord of The Rings or Game of Thrones might tell its stories using people, it's much more about the greater world around them.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I think what really shows how devoid these people are of creativity is when they attempt to be creative they come up with a setting like a wizards school that mimics our own reality as it has proms, defined teachers, etc. That kind of setting is absolute shit in a franchise like D&D and MtG where the setting is normally on a grander scale and there's a ton of exploration to be had into how the world works.

I was even thinking about how they could make a school work in a world like Magic, and I then I realized they had already done it, all the way back when they published the Ice Age novels as they had the Wizards College in one of those books. What made the Wizards College different was that it wasn't a traditional school where you go to classes, it was more of an traditional concept of a college where you could go learn shit but also to research and build new shit. So it wasn't a class or a prom, it was a bunch of mages doing their thing and having parties every now and then, but if you fucked up on a project they'd break your fingers because they weren't projects in the sense of a book report but rather they were projects that would actually create something useful.

That's what I think the major difference is, the Wizards College still had a ton of exploration of ideas and felt like a large and dangerous place, while the story also incorporated more locations in the world than just the college, such as the Church of Tal, the neighboring peasant towns that wanted to shank the mages for being witches, and so on. The modern school setting on the other hand, such as Harry Potter doesn't work for a large and diverse world, it works for a small story because at the end of the day Harry Potter is a story about a very small group of people whereas something like The Lord of The Rings or Game of Thrones might tell its stories using people, it's much more about the greater world around them.

If you're talking about the Tolarian Academy, it was a research post first, and a school second. And even as a school it was originally meant to train wizards to fight the Phyrexians. It was an organization with a well-defined purpose, not just the MtG equivalent of an Ivy League money sink. Also, wizards were still considered relatively rare back then (Blue's overabundance of the creature type notwithstanding) so the whole place still had a certain mystique to it. It was a strange place, not in a "ha ha so quirky" way, but in a dangerous, everything-is-experimental way.

Stryxwarts, Hogshaven or whatever the fuck the new "school" is called is literally just the final evolution of the top-down "hey, how about we make an entire world based on [noun]?" globetrotting plane-by-plane BS they've been doing since fucking Mirrodin. Who needs a fully-fleshed out world with its own history and multiple plotlines, when you can just go full gimmick on every release? Some of the worlds they created using this method were quite good (Innistrad was great, before they fucked it up), but most are just forgettable as actual settings unless you're a real nerd for whatever culture they were based on.

And even then, their explorations of the themes were so shallow as to be offensive sometimes. For example, I've got an Irish friend who was very excited for Throne of Eldraine at first, but ended up very disappointed when he realized how low-effort the mythology-based bits were.

 

[Retink]

If you're talking about the Tolarian Academy, it was a research post first, and a school second. And even as a school it was originally meant to train wizards to fight the Phyrexians. It was an organization with a well-defined purpose, not just the MtG equivalent of an Ivy League money sink. Also, wizards were still considered relatively rare back then (Blue's overabundance of the creature type notwithstanding) so the whole place still had a certain mystique to it. It was a strange place, not in a "ha ha so quirky" way, but in a dangerous, everything-is-experimental way.

No, I'm talking about literally the Mages College (I guess it was called a conclave now that I'm looking it up) . Back in the Dark Jodah stumbles around until he's lead to the place which was built in an old mega monastery and served as a gathering place for mages, often times to learn and study magic in a world where you would get burned at the stake for being a mage. Being mages they actually had a really cushy life but there was a bunch of fucked up shit going on. There was also Lat-Nam which was a school in a sense but it was more of a secret society that preserved knowledge, and even before that the Ivory Towers were kind of a school that stayed neutral during the Brother's War but ultimately got fucked for being too accepting and letting in double agents who betrayed them.

Stryxwarts, Hogshaven or whatever the fuck the new "school" is called is literally just the final evolution of the top-down "hey, how about we make an entire world based on [noun]?" globetrotting plane-by-plane BS they've been doing since fucking Mirrodin. Who needs a fully-fleshed out world with its history and multiple plotlines, when you can just go full gimmick on every release? Some of the worlds they created using this method were quite good (Innistrad was great, before they fucked it up), but most are just forgettable as actual settings unless you're a real nerd for whatever culture they were based on. And even then, their explorations of the themes were so shallow as to be offensive sometimes. I've got an Irish friend who was very excited for Throne of Eldraine at first, but ended up very disappointed when he realized how low-effort the mythology-based bits were.

I'm really not a fan of the top down design where they pick a very narrow theme and go with it. The old story had a lot of plane hopping as well, seeing as Dominaria was the primary plane but we still visited things like Rath, Mercadia, and Phyrexia, all of which were unique in their own way and only really Mercadia had real world influences as it was a country run by a secret cabal of jews goblins.

I would have never guessed that Eldraine was Irish based, I would have gone German before that as it reminds me more of Grimm.

 

[40 Year Old Boomer]

View attachment 3072546

Anything putting lit candles on books will be harvested for spell components in my campaign.

 

[Ghostse]

Anything putting lit candles on books will be harvested for spell components in my campaign.

I didn't even notice that. Lol.

edit: We live in a world of literal magic, gods performing miracles, healing spell, cure disease, make whole.... but fuck that, I am in a wheelchair.

 

[ReturnedHermit]

... but fuck that, I am in a wheelchair.

Ah, but if you read the character's backstory you would know that their legs were cursed in such a way that they can never be healed. That's makes them special, being the only paraplegic on the plane. By the way, the chair has 80 movement and doubles their carrying capacity.

 

[Retink]

Ah, but if you read the character's backstory you would know that their legs were cursed in such a way that they can never be healed. That's makes them special, being the only paraplegic on the plane. By the way, the chair has 80 movement and doubles their carrying capacity.

Does the curse prevent them from having mech legs or being on a flying carpet like some kind of Professor Xavier?

 

[Adamska]

Ah, but if you read the character's backstory you would know that their legs were cursed in such a way that they can never be healed. That's makes them special, being the only paraplegic on the plane. By the way, the chair has 80 movement and doubles their carrying capacity.

Kill themselves, then reincarnate. New body, new legs. Checkmate, cripple fetishists.

 

[40 Year Old Boomer]

Ah, but if you read the character's backstory you would know that their legs were cursed in such a way that they can never be healed. That's makes them special, being the only paraplegic on the plane. By the way, the chair has 80 movement and doubles their carrying capacity.

It's probably more like this

 

[Fictional Character]

I didn't even notice that. Lol.

edit: We live in a world of literal magic, gods performing miracles, healing spell, cure disease, make whole.... but fuck that, I am in a wheelchair.

Once again, Ars Magica's 'I ritually mutilated myself in emulation of Hephaestus to make myself better at making magic items' approach to wheelchair wizards reigns superior.

 

[Corn Flakes]

No, I'm talking about literally the Mages College (I guess it was called a conclave now that I'm looking it up) . Back in the Dark Jodah stumbles around until he's lead to the place which was built in an old mega monastery and served as a gathering place for mages, often times to learn and study magic in a world where you would get burned at the stake for being a mage. Being mages they actually had a really cushy life but there was a bunch of fucked up shit going on. There was also Lat-Nam which was a school in a sense but it was more of a secret society that preserved knowledge, and even before that the Ivory Towers were kind of a school that stayed neutral during the Brother's War but ultimately got fucked for being too accepting and letting in double agents who betrayed them.

Wow, you dug up some deep lore there. Kudos.

Regardless, both your example and my example are more tonally appropriate than the Hogwards: the Pottening expansion we got. And yet, the idiots seem to think it's the best thing since Conjure Sliced Bread.

I would have never guessed that Eldraine was Irish based, I would have gone German before that as it reminds me more of Grimm.

It's based on fairytales, so it's a mix of Grimm's tales, Arthurian legend, and Celtic folklore. My friend saw the preview for Chulane, Teller of Tales, and immediately recognized the theme.

I'm really not a fan of the top down design where they pick a very narrow theme and go with it. The old story had a lot of plane hopping as well, seeing as Dominaria was the primary plane but we still visited things like Rath, Mercadia, and Phyrexia, all of which were unique in their own way and only really Mercadia had real world influences as it was a country run by a secret cabal of jews goblins.

To swing this back to tabletop in general, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of top-down worlds.

This might be me just waving my boomer cane at the young'uns, but I liked it more when instead of the entire world being themed, certain regions had their own thing going on. That was easily one of the few things I really liked about Forgotten Realms: sure, there was a fireball-slinging wizard around every corner because the power level was so damn high, but different areas had a different feel to them. The Sword Coast isn't the same as Cormyr or Thay, and as overused as it is the Underdark might as well be a different plane of existence. Same thing for Greyhawk and most other AD&D settings: they all have their own little bits that contrasted with one another.

And yes, I say all this with full recognition that I have and I will continue to shill for Dark Sun, an extremely top-down setting. But in my defense, it was there before Wizards did this deluge of top-down worlds with MtG. Also, while Dark Sun is very top-heavy in its design, at least it offers a more alien experience than, say, Steampunkapallooza-- I mean, Kaladesh.

 

[Retink]

Wow, you dug up some deep lore there. Kudos.

I'm surprised more people don't know about it as it's from the first Ice Age book which is probably the best Magic novel out there. It's also probably the book that fleshes out the world the most.

To swing this back to tabletop in general, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of top-down worlds.

This might be me just waving my boomer cane at the young'uns, but I liked it more when instead of the entire world being themed, certain regions had their own thing going on. That was easily one of the few things I really liked about Forgotten Realms: sure, there was a fireball-slinging wizard around every corner because the power level was so damn high, but different areas had a different feel to them. The Sword Coast isn't the same as Cormyr or Thay, and as overused as it is the Underdark might as well be a different plane of existence. Same thing for Greyhawk and most other AD&D settings: they all have their own little bits that contrasted with one another.

Completely agree. I was watching a GDC talk yesterday and it was by the Magic art director at the time, and he brought up how Innistrad was better than Odyssey as both were graveyard themed but Innistrad made use of the theme while Odyssey had pit fights, octopus people, and all this other stuff that wasn't on a single theme. That just made me realize how much more I liked Odyssey over Innistrad, because while Innistrad is cool, it's entire scope is essentially rather small and going online I couldn't find a map that showed where everything was, but if I had to guess it would be a couple of towns and a forest, essentially a small country. Looking up the map for Odyssey, well it's part of Dominaria, which is made up of a bunch of continents with diverse settings, and is a set of its own continents known as Otaria.

So sure, the theme of Odyssey is messier, but it makes it feel like a real world composed of different factions and societies, as well as random wildlife as opposed to theme part where you're visiting horror Victorian England. That's not to say I hate Innistrad, but rather to say it's probably not something you can keep revisiting in multiple sets long term, because it's more of a small region setting than a plane. The same is true for something like Ravnica, not so much because of the theme of the plane, but because of the guilds, as you're always going to be tied to them in some way making the setting feel smaller than it could have been.

And to tie it into table top gaming as a whole, I think one thing designers should really do is sit down and draw a map of their setting. It can really give them an idea of how big or small their theme lends itself to be and how the different groups in their setting interact. That and don't be afraid to break away from a single theme, because worlds that feel real aren't themed, and if you go anywhere in the world you'll see some mix of themes. As a whole I'd rather see more games like Morrowind where you have very diverse setting and architectures that fit together than something like Skyrim which is all varying shades of Norse for the most part.

 

[ZMOT]

And to tie it into table top gaming as a whole, I think one thing designers should really do is sit down and draw a map of their setting. It can really give them an idea of how big or small their theme lends itself to be and how the different groups in their setting interact. That and don't be afraid to break away from a single theme, because worlds that feel real aren't themed, and if you go anywhere in the world you'll see some mix of themes. As a whole I'd rather see more games like Morrowind where you have very diverse setting and architectures that fit together than something like Skyrim which is all varying shades of Norse for the most part.

kinda related:

View attachment 3074004

It's probably more like this
https://youtube.com/watch?v=GC-r7fKkx3k

something I found while looking for the other pic:

 

[Flexo]

None of those images capture any adventure except maybe the first one. Its mostly people standing/sitting around and talking.

You can tell by comparing the framing of the shots with older ones.

In every one of those shots the characters are looking towards and slightly away form the viewer. Meaning we can't tell what is happening, we only get a hint from the characters reactions. Anything exciting is happening where the audience is. In other words, the excitement is whatever we imagine it to be, it's blank canvas storytelling.

Now look at older art.

In almost every one of these you will see it from a perspective of the adventurers moving towards something or of a wider shot showing both sides. Wherever the action and adventure is, WE the audience is seeing it, there is no hint that things might be happening where we are or behind us.

Where is the focus of the art? Nowadays it's usually the audience. So is it any wonder it appeals to narcissists?

 

[Gingervitis]

It’s nearly an hour long, no way I’m sitting through that. Here it is for anybody who wants to kill some time
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FseXEJ7myk4

The Alt-Right in Tabletop Games

What you are about to watch contains explicit language, adult themes, violence, racism, and transphobia. Viewer discretion is strongly advised.DO NOT INTERAC...

m.youtube.com

This nigger spends 6 minutes talking about the Third Wave experiment. What does this have to do with anything?