Study shows "Ban the Box" laws hurt blacks

  • 🏰 The Fediverse is up. If you know, you know.
  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
http://campusreform.org/?ID=7798

Ban the Box laws make it illegal to ask if someone has a criminal record on a job or college application. These laws are supposed to help black people because they're more likely to have a criminal record. This, of course, backfires horribly, because black people are more likely to have a criminal record. Nobody wants to hire a criminal, so they won't hire any blacks just to be safe.
 
Click to expand...
Does this include all crimes?

It's a pretty dumb law but if it does include all crimes then it's particularly bad for companies who unknowingly hire sex offenders to work with kids and the vulnerable.
 
Ultimately, requiring someone to disclose their criminal history in applying for jobs, as a general practice, is a bad thing. Either they're free to get back to life after they're released, or they're not. None of this halfway shit. If you've served your time, you should be done with it.

But yeah, exceptions like sex offenders working with kids or carjackers working at the used car lot are OK.
 
Pickle Inspector said:
Does this include all crimes?

It's a pretty dumb law but if it does include all crimes then it's particularly bad for companies who unknowingly hire sex offenders to work with kids and the vulnerable.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but surprisingly even with the disclosures, people with violent histories/sex offences/etc. still manage to get through the system. The nursing home job that I had just quit managed to have 3 people working there with felony histories that were found out when they were accused of abuse against a resident.
 
This is how racism manifests itself in America.

And there are people who still deny that racism exists in America, and in the same breath say something to the effect of "black people need to get their shit together".

...

Anyway, in regards to 'ban the box'... I would argue this is a problem, not with the law, but with discriminatory employers.
 
Mecha-Lenin said:
This is how racism manifests itself in America.
Click to expand...

Maybe so, but this is also how perverse incentives and unintended consequences work in America. They shouldn't have banned something that employers have every right to ask about, and which actually puts them at significant risk of legal liability when some criminal they would not have hired harms someone while in their employ. This imposes an unwritten tax on them in the name of public policy, which incentivizes them to find less optimal ways of avoiding the actual problem, which is employing people with criminal propensities.

Since race provides a crude, inaccurate sort of a Bayesian inference on this issue, they'll naturally go to that, penalizing innocent and guilty alike.

They don't even have to be racist, just risk-averse and without any better ways of avoiding risk, which the convicted felon question gave them.
 
AnOminous said:
Since race provides a crude, inaccurate sort of a Bayesian inference on this issue, they'll naturally go to that, penalizing innocent and guilty alike.

They don't even have to be racist, just risk-averse and without any better ways of avoiding risk, which the convicted felon question gave them.
Click to expand...
This is like saying: "Racist behaviors will be the natural result of normal private business practice, so it's not their fault."

But that does not really excuse the behavior. Either race should not have been an inference in the first place, or the employment opportunities to released criminals (who did their time) should not have so easily capitulated to this racist inference. Either way, the problem of racist profiling cannot be ignored just because it happens to line up with private business motives.

EDIT: I'm not saying there is an easy solution to systemic or cultural racism, and I am not saying the individual businesses are consciously racist, but racist results are clearly there, and no amount of market philosophy will change that.
 
Mecha-Lenin said:
This is like saying: "Racist behaviors will be the natural result of normal private business practice, so it's not their fault."
Click to expand...

I didn't absolve anyone of responsibility, just pointed out that bad policies have bad outcomes, and that this policy in particular is what is known as a perverse incentive. It actually encourages racism.
 
AnOminous said:
I didn't absolve anyone of responsibility, just pointed out that bad policies have bad outcomes, and that this policy in particular is what is known as a perverse incentive. It actually encourages racism.
Click to expand...
Oh I was not accusing you of anything specific. And I agree with what you said. I just did not feel it was a satisfactory way of understanding what was going on. But whatever.
 
Unfortunately, in today's sue-happy world, employers are being essentially crudely taxed via negligence lawsuit because not only are they held liable for behaviors of their employees, but, are systematically blockaded from vetting them under penalty of discrimination lawsuits.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

A lot of the racial/social problems we face are made much worse by the fact that civil law is often wielded weapon-like by people who want to be a nuisance.
 
What kind of name is "Ban the Box?" It sounds like something by hippies against cereal boxes being made from palm oil and a waste of resources because apparently plastic bags are much more environmentally-friendly.

But I digress. What happened to honesty affidavits at the end of applications and subsequent background checks? To my knowledge, questions about criminal records are usually at the end of applications anyway, allowing somebody to express their qualifications first.
 
In Hungary, you are required to have no criminal record to hold most jobs, and all goverment jobs. (One could argue all politicans are criminals though , he he he)
That is the proper way it is.

This retarded initiative will just label every black person as a criminal risk. But liberals being stupid and doing counterproductive things is nothing new.

http://campusreform.org/?ID=7770

This article highlights the same issue. If you force feed diversity to someone, they won't like it.
 
Last edited:
Mecha-Lenin said:
This is how racism manifests itself in America.

And there are people who still deny that racism exists in America, and in the same breath say something to the effect of "black people need to get their shit together".

...

Anyway, in regards to 'ban the box'... I would argue this is a problem, not with the law, but with discriminatory employers.
Click to expand...

I won't deny that a component of it is indeed discriminatory employers, but a far larger part of it is liability. Employers are terrified of hiring a person with a criminal record, and then being sued into oblivion if that person goes and pulls some illegal/immoral shenanigans.

A Home Depot worker drops a pallet load of paving stones on a customer's head... big lawsuit.

A high-as-a-kite Home Depot worker with an extensive record of drug convictions drops a pallet of paving stones on a customer's head... MASSIVE GIGANTIC lawsuit.

You don't like the "racist" hiring practices of employers turning away those with criminal records? Take it up with the lawyers, not the employers.
 
Mecha-Lenin said:
This is how racism manifests itself in America.

And there are people who still deny that racism exists in America, and in the same breath say something to the effect of "black people need to get their shit together".

...

Anyway, in regards to 'ban the box'... I would argue this is a problem, not with the law, but with discriminatory employers.
Click to expand...
So, denying former violent criminals employment is racist. Because criminals are a race.
 
Malodorous Merkin said:
You don't like the "racist" hiring practices of employers turning away those with criminal records? Take it up with the lawyers, not the employers.
Click to expand...

The same reason is what brought us zero-tolerance school discipline where the bullies roam free, but the kid with the open pair of scissors in their hands is suspended for having a weapon. Yes, I know that's hyperbole, but behind every dumb HR dictate is a lawyer signing off on it.
 
But, asking straight up "do you have a criminal record?" regardless of race, is racist?
 
Mecha-Lenin said:
If you had reading comprehension you would realize that the employers are denying black people jobs because they associate them with criminals. That's pretty racist behavior.
Click to expand...

They most likely do that because there are actual statistics that make it seem likely. The fact that they can't check for the lack of criminal record leaves them little choice.
They do have to take care about their company and choose the least risky option, which is very pragmatic and logical.

If they still did it while they could check criminal records and there would be disparity between white and black crime rate, yeah it would be just dumb racism.
 
Male Idiot said:
They most likely do that because there are actual statistics that make it seem likely. The fact that they can't check for the lack of criminal record leaves them little choice.
They do have to take care about their company and choose the least risky option, which is very pragmatic and logical.

If they still did it while they could check criminal records and there would be disparity between white and black crime rate, yeah it would be just dumb racism.
Click to expand...
Ban the box was meant to help people who committed relatively minor offenses outside of rape and murder. Even then, these people served their time already. They have been punished enough without also being thrown into unemployment. So, they won't just commit crimes on the job.... as if they could not help themselves.

Former inmates commit crimes because they don't have things like jobs.

Everyone is saying that this is totally rational and pragmatic for private businesses (and we should not complain?), but to me it still seems, well, racist. Keep in mind that there are plenty of white felons who will see the "ban the box" as a boon because they are not subject to such racial profiling. Which of course will effect disparity between black and white families down the line.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom