Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[melty]

Beyond was one of the most boring films I've seen in a long time, I don't remember most of it in fac

Beyond is super boring and forgettable, but at least it feels like Trek and not like jj Abrams auditioning for star wars.

The thing I like the most about it is its 60s sci-fi, the thing I hate the most is its 60s sci fi. By that I mean the 50s and 60s had some really cerebral sci fi writing, and some really shitty, cheesy ones too. Star Trek has both.

Totally agree, good insight.
I saw tng after I saw numerous parodies of it in pop culture, so it feels old/overdone yet at the same time I know it started a lot of these tropes and I appreciate it for that.

I think it's kind of cool rewatching early tng after watching tos. Early episodes are strange and outdated for sure, but I kind of like the awkward transition from the oldschool TOS plots and settings to the more mature TNG stories.
It's a transition that we rarely see in shows nowadays in an era of endless reboots with the same characters in the same settings. I'm really impressed with how they managed to bring on this entire new cast and reboot the series the way they did. We do not see anything like that anymore. I wish they had the guts to do that with Trek now and finally give us post-voyager episodes instead of riding off tng nostalgia.

DS9; when I was on a kick watching what are considered the worst episodes of star trek, I did not see many episodes that were from ds9. Lots of people don't like the Ferengi episodes, Move Along Home, and a few others, but they're not nearly as bad in comparison to the bad episodes of all the other series.
I think that says a lot about ds9.

Your voyager criticism was.. way tamer than I expected and I pretty much agree with everything you said. I don't think the borg were quite that overused (still rewatching it though)
Edit: just saw where you said voyager had a bad captain. Strong disagree!

 

[XYZpdq]

I think it's kind of cool rewatching early tng after watching tos. Early episodes are strange and outdated for sure, but I kind of like the awkward transition from the oldschool TOS plots and settings to the more mature TNG stories.

Yeah watching early TNG and trying to figure out how it grew out of Phase II and seeing how it developed from that into late TNG is pretty fun.

Move Along Home

I enjoy how early DS9 does Star Trek stuff a lot more after getting to know the characters over the rest of the show and then looking at how they deal with Star Trekking instead of SF TV Dramaing.

 

[projecteddrama]

Beyond is super boring and forgettable, but at least it feels like Trek and not like jj Abrams auditioning for star w

It felt like the latter to me. Was Star Trek always about stupid action sequences that don't make sense or something?

I've been rewatching some voyager lately. I'm still hyper autistic over Janeway. The Andy Dick episode is pretty hilarious, again, I'm one of those people that like the stupid comic relief episodes.

That was a good episode.

Totally agree, good insight.
I saw tng after I saw numerous parodies of it in pop culture, so it feels old/overdone yet at the same time I know it started a lot of these tropes and I appreciate it for that.

I think the only parody I've ever seen of Trek is Galaxy Quest.

I think it's kind of cool rewatching early tng after watching tos. Early episodes are strange and outdated for sure, but I kind of like the awkward transition from the oldschool TOS plots and settings to the more mature TNG stories.
It's a transition that we rarely see in shows nowadays in an era of endless reboots with the same characters in the same settings. I'm really impressed with how they managed to bring on this entire new cast and reboot the series the way they did. We do not see anything like that anymore. I wish they had the guts to do that with Trek now and finally give us post-voyager episodes instead of riding off tng nostalgia

Agreed, but the transition from 80s TNG to 90s TNG is even more impressive to me, and jarring too, esp if you're watching the HD versions. Try watching any episode from the first two seasons and then watch any episode from the seventh season for maximum effect, feels like you're watching two different series.

Trek nowadays is riding off the coatails of Abrams Trek I thought? I suspect Discovery will just be a TV version honestly with some random "cerebral" dialogue here and there to make it seem less retarded. I hope I'm wrong, I won't pass judgment until I see it, but I fear anything as thoughtful as TNG is not going to be on TV these days.

DS9; when I was on a kick watching what are considered the worst episodes of star trek, I did not see many episodes that were from ds9. Lots of people don't like the Ferengi episodes, Move Along Home, and a few others, but they're not nearly as bad in comparison to the bad episodes of all the other series.
I think that says a lot about ds9.

Oh yeah, I agree. But I didn't watch it because my family (which was all into Trek) found it boring because there was too much talking and drama and not enough random space travel running into random bumpy forehead aliens for them, so we watched Voyager instead. Imagine my shock many years later when I discovered DS9 was far superior to Voyager, and even better than TNG.

Your voyager criticism was.. way tamer than I expected and I pretty much agree with everything you said. I don't think the borg were quite that overused (still rewatching it though)

What did you expect me to say, out of curiosity?

Edit: just saw where you said voyager had a bad captain. Strong disagree!

She's very inconsistent. Instead of just being a new character like Sisko was, she's either a wannabe Kirk or a wannabe Picard.

Crosspost from another thread, but what do you think of what Voyager did to Q and the Q?

Meh? One decent episode, two bad ones. Was just a lame attempt to bring another beloved element from TNG to boost ratings that failed. Though tbf, only three of the Q episodes from TNG are really good (Q Who, Tapestry, All Good Things), but they were among the best of the series, hence why the character was so iconic in it. In Voyager, the episodes were among the worst in the series, and it was just another reminder that Voyager was just a poor mans TNG.

 

[melty]

It felt like the latter to me. Was Star Trek always about stupid action sequences that don't make sense or something?

It's more that the first two movies were waaaay worse about this.

I think the only parody I've ever seen of Trek is Galaxy Quest.

South Park has a LOT of trek references. That was poorly worded, I should have said references

What did you expect me to say, out of curiosity?

Nothing particular; people just tend to be really harsh on Voyager and you have some pretty strong opinions on trek.

I hope I'm wrong, I won't pass judgment until I see it, but I fear anything as thoughtful as TNG is not going to be on TV these days.

I hope this is wrong too but it's what I expect.

Imagine my shock many years later when I discovered DS9 was far superior to Voyager, and even better than TNG.

I've been hearing this lately, people who didn't appreciate DS9 when it was on TV but in retrospect it's aged very well.
My boyfriend has a similar opinion to you, he really liked voyager when it was airing and never paid much attention to DS9. Now on rewatching them he doesn't think much of Voyager and loves DS9, to the point he (almost) ranks Sisko above Picard.
I didn't watch either when they were airing though.

She's very inconsistent

I think Kate Mulgrew said Janeway almost seemed like she had a mental disorder due to the inconsistency in writing.
I don't think it's that bad. She makes some bad decisions; Scientific Method is the obvious example but has a decent excuse.
Her other bad decisions are poorly written off as the crew going along with them, like all the random detours they make in the delta quadrant which Seven calls out later lol.
She's probably a combo of kirk&picard. I assume they had trouble writing a ~female captain~ in the 90s.
They want her to be intelligent, bold, and empathetic, but not so empathetic that she seems weak and stereotypical.
Kate Mulgrew sells this extremely well imo. Her facial expressions are spot on. I love her courage and confidence.
Janeway is my 2nd favorite captain below Picard.
Archer, I have no idea what they were thinking with his character.

 

[waffle]

Janeways weird smoker voice and lack of facial expression made her seem like a pack a day for 40 years smoker who had a stroke was put in charge of a star ship. The fact that most of the voyger episodes seem like they were written madlibs style kind of enhances the "captain stroke victim" impression imo.

 

[melty]

lack of facial expression

Haha no

 

[projecteddrama]

It's more that the first two movies were waaaay worse about this.

Perhaps my autistic mind didn't get it, but wasn't Beyond just a series of action scenes? Or am I missing something?

South Park has a LOT of trek references. That was poorly worded, I should have said references

I don't watch South Park, lol. I've only ever seen the movie.

Nothing particular; people just tend to be really harsh on Voyager and you have some pretty strong opinions on trek.

My strong opinions on Trek are almost always positive actually.

I've been hearing this lately, people who didn't appreciate DS9 when it was on TV but in retrospect it's aged very well.

I'm not sure if any of the Treks beyond TOS have an aging problem, I'm pretty sure if I were old enough back then, I'd have liked DS9. I didn't begin watching it until it reran on TV several years after it ended, and really didn't begin watching it in totality until streaming came along, so it's a lot newer to me. I will say DS9 is the most modern Trek, it fits with modern TV more than others. But I do think TNG is superior in some regards

My boyfriend has a similar opinion to you, he really liked voyager when it was airing and never paid much attention to DS9. Now on rewatching them he doesn't think much of Voyager and loves DS9, to the point he (almost) ranks Sisko above Picard.
I didn't watch either when they were airing though.

Oh yeah your bf is giving off a very common sentiment I run into all the time, I'm no expection. DS9 has turned from the black sheep into the show every hardcore fan prefers the most. I mean even Abrams Trek feels obliged to reference and mine it for material.

They want her to be intelligent, bold, and empathetic, but not so empathetic that she seems weak and stereotypical.
Kate Mulgrew sells this extremely well imo. Her facial expressions are spot on. I love her courage and confidence.
Janeway is my 2nd favorite captain below Picard.

I get everything you're saying, but she's poorly written and often poorly acted, and in the end feels I'm just watching a rehash of Picard, and sometimes Kirk so she just irritates me more than interests me. Then again I haven't seen every episode, but a good deal so far.

As for Archer, I prefer him slightly because Scott Bakula is a far better actor, however his character suffers from exactly the same issues Janeway does.

Come to think of it, I should try to get my boyfriend into Trek..

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

Perhaps my autistic mind didn't get it, but wasn't Beyond just a series of action scenes? Or am I missing something?

Compared to Into Darkness and the 2009 movie, I feel that Beyond was very tame when it came to action. Also I felt that the plot was hell of a lot more tame than 2009 or ID. Also the USS Franklin was much more visually pleasing than the USS "JUST BLUE MY SHIT UP NIGGA" Enterprise. God I fucking hate the way technology looks in nu-Trek.
Speaking of tech and visual design, I'm pretty excited for Discovery because that shit is supposed to take inspiration from Ralph McQuarrie designs and that dude is fucking great. I'm also hoping that since it's set so close to TOS we're going to get some fucking 60's style sci-fi interior designs and maybe some TOS-ish uniforms.

 

[projecteddrama]

I don't even understand what the plot was beyond simple revenge and mass murder which was the exact same plot in 09 and Into Darkness, just worse this time. And every other scene was just cg-i action and inept acting.

lso the USS Franklin was much more visually pleasing than the USS "JUST BLUE MY SHIT UP NIGGA" Enterprise. God I fucking hate the way technology looks in nu-Trek.

I actually dislike it more than the Apple Store Enterprise. I actually prefer the Enterprise NX look, and wish they stuck with that.

Speaking of tech and visual design, I'm pretty excited for Discovery because that shit is supposed to take inspiration from Ralph McQuarrie designs and that dude is fucking great. I'm also hoping that since it's set so close to TOS we're going to get some fucking 60's style sci-fi interior designs and maybe some TOS-ish uniforms.

That's a major reason I'm not excited. Ralph McQuarrie's desgins are just hideous, so hideous that the people behind that little cg-i demo of Discovery had to reassure people the Discovery isn't going to look just like that pizza cutter crap. And I hate the TOS look and while forgivable for a 60s tv show, just looks laughable and unserious today, which is a reason I don't like Abrams Trek. But I figure it's going to look just like Abrams Trek, and be like it, so blegh

There's things going for Discovery and things going against it. I'll reserve my judgment for when it comes out but I suspect it will either totally suck or just be underwhelming. Hopefully I'm wrong. I just hope it's not the pizza cutter ship..

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

I don't even understand what the plot was beyond simple revenge and mass murder which was the exact same plot in 09 and Into Darkness, just worse this time. And every other scene was just cg-i action and inept acting.

I actually dislike it more than the Apple Store Enterprise. I actually prefer the Enterprise NX look, and wish they stuck with that.

That's a major reason I'm not excited. Ralph McQuarrie's desgins are just hideous, so hideous that the people behind that little cg-i demo of Discovery had to reassure people the Discovery isn't going to look just like that pizza cutter crap. And I hate the TOS look and while forgivable for a 60s tv show, just looks laughable and unserious today, which is a reason I don't like Abrams Trek. But I figure it's going to look just like Abrams Trek, and be like it, so blegh

Krall was pissed at the Federation because they're a bunch of hippies to his soldier soul and he felt abandoned by them. He's not Nero (spock tried to save romulus but failed wtf i hate vulcans now) or nu-Khan so he's pretty much the best antagonist in the newer films to me. He also didn't blow up Vulcan so that's a point for him in his genocidal scheme area. I could sympathize with him more overall (meaning I gave half of the tiniest fuck about him) than Khan or Nero because he's a relic and blah blah outdated ideas.
Can't exactly disagree on the inept acting though, but let's be fair...that was pretty much in every nu-Trek film. Don't know how you can dislike the Franklin more than the Enterprise though. The amount of fucking lens flare and the overwhelming amount of blue on the Enterprise makes me sick.

I like that pizza-cutter crap though, it's dumb in the same great way that the Millennium Falcon is just a satellite dish. TOS designs never really looked laughable to me except for the Phaser Rifle Kirk used in Where No Man Has Gone Before and that black and white spiral on the bridge of the Enterprise. I love all those older sci-fi designs, they always look great to me.

 

[melty]

Perhaps my autistic mind didn't get it, but wasn't Beyond just a series of action scenes?

Probably. Beyond is so forgettable I need to rewatch it again already.
But imo it's the only reboot movie that remotely seems like it has a trek plot. Like, Into Darkness, if you kept the script and removed all the Starfleet references I would barely recognize it as being trek influenced at all.
Beyond seemed like a long boring episode, but at least it seemed like a Trek episode.
I should rewatch it tho

I don't watch South Park, lol. I've only ever seen the movie.

A lot of early episodes reference trek! Way more than I thought; http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_References
Preschool, Spookyfish, Fourth Grade, city on the edge of forever & wacky molestation adventure are the best examples.

not sure if any of the Treks beyond TOS have an aging problem, I'm pretty sure if I were old enough back then, I'd have liked DS9. I didn't begin watching it until it reran on TV several years after it ended, and really didn't begin watching it in totality until streaming came along, so it's a lot newer to me. I will say DS9 is the most modern Trek, it fits with modern TV more than others. But I do think TNG is superior in some regards

Agree

DS9 has turned from the black sheep into the show every hardcore fan prefers the most. I mean even Abrams Trek feels obliged to reference and mine it for material.

I never experienced the black sheep stage haha. Interesting how things changed.
What are the Abrahams references? I don't remember them.

I get everything you're saying, but she's poorly written and often poorly acted

Often poorly written, but I don't think she is ever poorly acted.
I can see how some people don't like her, she has a strong sort of raspy voice which is really prominent, I didn't like it at first.
I love her courage. She does take after Picard but she's more expressive, relatable, and just inspirational with what she had to deal with.
I love her moral character too, though realistically her adhering to morals so strongly would have gotten the entire crew killed/assimilated so that's a big weakness in voyager.
She doesn't really get any "In the Pale Moonlight" moments. Tuvix is the closest I guess. for some fucking reason voyager loved doing heavy episodes centered around Neelix so they are hard to take seriously.
Counterpoint is one of my favorite Janeway episodes.

Scott Bakula is probably a better actor but Janeway is a far better character.

Come to think of it, I should try to get my boyfriend into Trek..

You haven't already? What kind of trekkie are you??? Jk

. I'm also hoping that since it's set so close to TOS we're going to get some fucking 60's style sci-fi interior designs and maybe some TOS-ish uniforms

I like your optimism, for the first point though I really doubt we will get anything like that
I think they'll probably go with tos uniforms though because it meshes well with the tos nostalgia trend.

 

[projecteddrama]

Probably. Beyond is so forgettable I need to rewatch it again already.
But imo it's the only reboot movie that remotely seems like it has a trek plot. Like, Into Darkness, if you kept the script and removed all the Starfleet references I would barely recognize it as being trek influenced at all.
Beyond seemed like a long boring episode, but at least it seemed like a Trek episode.
I should rewatch it tho

As far as I can remember, and I only watched it on Amazon Prime so I can re-watch it at any time (I didn't go into theaters since I knew it'd suck), but it's just Star Trek 2s plot without any sense. Some guy wants revenge, and I don't even remember why. I guess in that sense it is a Trek plot, but not in the way I think some are trying to say that.

A lot of early episodes reference trek! Way more than I thought; http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_References
Preschool, Spookyfish, Fourth Grade, city on the edge of forever & wacky molestation adventure are the best examples.

Interesting, I guess they're Trekkies, the guys behind South Park. I don't watch much tv myself, maybe this is an excuse to watch South Park.

I never experienced the black sheep stage haha. Interesting how things changed.

Section 31 is a major part of Into Darkness. The villain is apart of it. Also the snowglobe station in Beyond kinda looks like DS9.

You haven't already? What kind of trekkie are you??? Jk

He thinks its weird a girl is into Trek, and thinks trek is "gay"

Scott Bakula is probably a better actor but Janeway is a far better character.

They're the same character, just that Janeway is angrier, and Bakula is happier, well until he gets angrier in season 3, where he becomes a slightly more competent Janeway without the major bitch syndrome. To me Janeway is just totally insane and nonsensical and doesn't make any sense.

I love her moral character too, though realistically her adhering to morals so strongly would have gotten the entire crew killed/assimilated so that's a big weakness in voyager.

Her morals are inconsistent and completely whacky though.

Krall was pissed at the Federation because they're a bunch of hippies to his soldier soul

That makes no sense though, because in the Abrams films the Federation does nothing but kill people and blow shit up. I mean, even pre Abrams Trek, they blow shit up and kill people and have a giant space armada. Lol

He's not Nero (spock tried to save romulus but failed wtf i hate vulcans now)

Yeah, Nero was just a rip off of Shinzon, right down to having motivations that made no sense whatsoever.

r nu-Khan so he's pretty much the best antagonist in the newer films to me.

He comes off as Khan with a bad accent to me.

I could sympathize with him more overall (meaning I gave half of the tiniest fuck about him) than Khan or Nero because he's a relic and blah blah outdated ideas.

I still don't get what his motivation is. What is he trying to accomplish anyway by blowing up a space station? He hates the Federation for being weak (despite it not being weak) so he's going to make it weaker? Lol

Don't know how you can dislike the Franklin more than the Enterprise though. The amount of fucking lens flare and the overwhelming amount of blue on the Enterprise makes me sick.

As much as the Enterprise in there is tryhard Iphone blue looking, the Franklin is trying too hard to look "primitive" and also doesn't jive much with Enteprise (the series). Normally that wouldn't matter but it goes above and beyond out of its way to link it to that series, so I'll take issue with it, mainly because that look actually somehow looks better than this horrible shit.

I like that pizza-cutter crap though, it's dumb in the same great way that the Millennium Falcon is just a satellite dish. TOS designs never really looked laughable to me except for the Phaser Rifle Kirk used in Where No Man Has Gone Before and that black and white spiral on the bridge of the Enterprise. I love all those older sci-fi designs, they always look great to me.

Tbf, staff behind Discovery claim the final ship design will be different, but we'll see.

If they intentionally want to look cheesy and less serious, it doesn't bode well for the show. A lot of what I've read about it, which isn't much tbf, doesn't sound appealing though.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

He thinks its weird a girl is into Trek, and thinks trek is "gay"

Oh shit this makes me assmad just reading it

That makes no sense though, because in the Abrams films the Federation does nothing but kill people and blow shit up. I mean, even pre Abrams Trek, they blow shit up and kill people and have a giant space armada. Lol
He comes off as Khan with a bad accent to me.
I still don't get what his motivation is. What is he trying to accomplish anyway by blowing up a space station? He hates the Federation for being weak (despite it not being weak) so he's going to make it weaker? Lol

Okay I'll try explaining it a bit more than just "he's a soldier and hates hippies". So he was in the Romulan War and shortly after the Federation was formed. Suddenly with the war being over, "souldja boy" felt out of place and resented the peace. Then he got fucked and blasted off to Altamid via a wormhole. He and 3-4 of his crewmembers ended up surviving. After being left alone on this planet with his distress call going unanswered, his feelings of being left behind by Federation grew and he came to hate it entirely. I'm guessing using that tech to suck the life out of other living creatures to extend his own life didn't exactly help his sanity either, but that's just my own feelings.

As much as the Enterprise in there is tryhard Iphone blue looking, the Franklin is trying too hard to look "primitive" and also doesn't jive much with Enteprise (the series). Normally that wouldn't matter but it goes above and beyond out of its way to link it to that series, so I'll take issue with it, mainly because that look actually somehow looks better than this horrible shit.

I can't exactly remember how the interior of the Franklin looked, but the exterior looked fairly Enterprise-ish. I thought it fit well from the time it was supposed to be unlike the Enterprise which really feels like it's more advanced than the TNG-era Enterprises visually.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

Double post because fuck forum etiquette I'm real happy about this shit.

Got a Tribble for Christmas. I'm surprised how much I like it. It's literally just a ball of fluff, but it's soft as hell and it has really cute sound effects.
Next on my sci-fi plush list has gotta be this though

Shit's cute as fuck.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

What do Kiwis think of the first movie (The Motion Picture)?

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

What do Kiwis think of the first movie (The Motion Picture)?

It was the least fun to watch and I'm struggling to remember specifically what happened in the movie.

 

[TheImportantFart]

What do Kiwis think of the first movie (The Motion Picture)?

Dreadful. I've made my thoughts known earlier in the thread, but sitting through it is a miserable experience. Also, the people who try to contend that there's a grand message to the film are wrong because we have reports from people from behind the scenes that it was a sloppy production disaster that was actually intentionally sabotaged by Gene Roddenberry in places because he was butthurt that his ideas weren't getting used.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

Also, the people who try to contend that there's a grand message to the film are wrong[...]

There can still be meaning in the story even if the production was messed up. Whether or not it's a good movie is another story.

actually intentionally sabotaged by Gene Roddenberry in places

What are some examples of that?

 

[TheImportantFart]

What are some examples of that?

Well it's kind of a complicated story and a lot of this is hearsay and he-said she-said kind of stuff, and there are no specific examples (I could find) of places where he fucked up the script, but Gene basically drew the writing process out longer than necessary because he was never satisfied with the story. This caused a knock-on effect, leading to other delays and bad decisions as well as the production budget rising through the roof. This caused Gene to get kicked upstairs for future films and I think overall the film series improved. I'm not saying all the blame lies with Gene, but he was certainly part of the problem.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

There are at least 2 good things in the first movie: the soundtrack and the design of "V'GER."