Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[GeorgeDaMoose]

Continuing on with Enterprise...very slowly. I have no urge to go back to Voyager any time soon. I liked Shuttlepod One a decent amount. Pretty fun episode aside from Reed's dream. STINKY STINKY STINKY WHO WROTE THIS FUCKING SHIT?
There's something kind of weird about Enterprise. It seems to uh show off the female cast's body more than it really needs to. TOS had revealing costumes and all that, but it never really felt too weird to me. But when I can see T'Pol's nips through her shirt, the camera zoom in on T'Pol's body, and T'Pol's tits all over Archer's face (Shadows of P'Jem) it just comes across as kind of immature. It might just be me, but I have the feeling that the producers decided to sex up the show a little more. Or maybe they just decided to sex up T'Pol more. Really weird if I'm right though because all of the Treks have been fairly good when it comes to being mature about that stuff. Or at least I feel they have.

I decided to binge a handful of Voyager episodes and damned if they didn't screw it up from the start.


Season 1 episode 1, 15m 14s.

A smiling happy Vulcan talking to a shipmate. Bravo!

View attachment 151974

That's a very, very weird mistake to make. Did they forget to tell her to not show emotion and just threw her on the set? Or did they actually tell her to smile from some reason? I'm not sure which is the worse possibility.

 

[YankeeTrader]

Continuing on with Enterprise...very slowly. I have no urge to go back to Voyager any time soon. I liked Shuttlepod One a decent amount. Pretty fun episode aside from Reed's dream. STINKY STINKY STINKY WHO WROTE THIS FUCKING SHIT?
There's something kind of weird about Enterprise. It seems to uh show off the female cast's body more than it really needs to. TOS had revealing costumes and all that, but it never really felt too weird to me. But when I can see T'Pol's nips through her shirt, the camera zoom in on T'Pol's body, and T'Pol's tits all over Archer's face (Shadows of P'Jem) it just comes across as kind of immature. It might just be me, but I have the feeling that the producers decided to sex up the show a little more. Or maybe they just decided to sex up T'Pol more. Really weird if I'm right though because all of the Treks have been fairly good when it comes to being mature about that stuff. Or at least I feel they have.


That's a very, very weird mistake to make. Did they forget to tell her to not show emotion and just threw her on the set? Or did they actually tell her to smile from some reason? I'm not sure which is the worse possibility.

Yeah, that stinky bit...... *shudder*. And they did sex up T'Pol on purpose. If you notice as the show and ratings progress, her outfits start to show more cleavage.

 

[Van Darkholme]

Continuing on with Enterprise...very slowly. I have no urge to go back to Voyager any time soon. I liked Shuttlepod One a decent amount. Pretty fun episode aside from Reed's dream. STINKY STINKY STINKY WHO WROTE THIS FUCKING SHIT?
There's something kind of weird about Enterprise. It seems to uh show off the female cast's body more than it really needs to. TOS had revealing costumes and all that, but it never really felt too weird to me. But when I can see T'Pol's nips through her shirt, the camera zoom in on T'Pol's body, and T'Pol's tits all over Archer's face (Shadows of P'Jem) it just comes across as kind of immature. It might just be me, but I have the feeling that the producers decided to sex up the show a little more. Or maybe they just decided to sex up T'Pol more. Really weird if I'm right though because all of the Treks have been fairly good when it comes to being mature about that stuff. Or at least I feel they have.

Wait till they start rubbing each other in goo, including the dog. Doesn't get more obvious than that.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

I know I shouldn't feel this way, but I really like Faith of the Heart. Sure, it sucks as a Trek song. Damned if I don't fucking sing along to that shit every time I hear it though. Then again, I hum along to all the Trek theme songs. Also really dig saying the "The Final Frontier" speech Kirk and Picard do at the title sequence. It's really retarded, but it's too much fun not to do.
Also second season TOS theme is the best theme in the entire series and if you disagree then you have shit taste.

 

[YankeeTrader]

I know I shouldn't feel this way, but I really like Faith of the Heart. Sure, it sucks as a Trek song. Damned if I don't fucking sing along to that shit every time I hear it though. Then again, I hum along to all the Trek theme songs. Also really dig saying the "The Final Frontier" speech Kirk and Picard do at the title sequence. It's really exceptional, but it's too much fun not to do.
Also second season TOS theme is the best theme in the entire series and if you disagree then you have shit taste.

That took courage man! Ok, I'll admit that after binge watching Enterprise probably no less than 10 times over the past 4-5 years the theme does kinda grow on you. I still hate it as a trek theme like you do, but like so many things that I didn't like about Enterprise, it slowly wore me down with time.

Since I'm old as fuck, I remember those 3 seasons were it, and those opening notes of the TOS theme resonate with me on deep level. It still gives me goosebumps as the first 'woosh' of the Enterprise across the screen. Same goes for the opening narrations. Stewart did a good job, but Shatner is the gold standard. I know, I'm getting my nerd all over the thread and shit, but it's a Star Trek thread and IDGAF LOL

On a side tangent, I put Nemesis on last night since it popped back up in my watch it again list.
Everything obvious about the movie aside, I have zero emotion towards the 1701-E. When the Enterprise blew up in STIII? I cried like a baby. When the D crashed, sad... that weirdly shaped ship grew on me. The E for some reason just doesn't do a damn thing for me. Hasn't made me care about her yet.

 

[TheImportantFart]

The E for some reason just doesn't do a damn thing for me. Hasn't made me care about her yet.

Although you may not have much emotional attachment to it, I though the Enterprise-E design-wise was one of the most beautiful ships in the Star Trek canon. It was a great ship for the films and a great replacement for the D, which wasn't really suited for the big screen.

 

[YankeeTrader]

Although you may not have much emotional attachment to it, I though the Enterprise-E design-wise was one of the most beautiful ships in the Star Trek canon. It was a great ship for the films and a great replacement for the D, which wasn't really suited for the big screen.

I'll give you that she's a fine looking ship, the E just wasn't around long enough(screen time). Maybe that's my point with that.

 

[Doctor Druid]

I decided to binge a handful of Voyager episodes and damned if they didn't screw it up from the start.


Season 1 episode 1, 15m 14s.

A smiling happy Vulcan talking to a shipmate. Bravo!

View attachment 151974

I kinda rationalized it by just saying that not all Vulcans followed Surak's teachings. Sybok (despite V being an awful film) is an example of this. Spock, after all, did say that logic was the beginning of wisdom, and not the end of it.

(nerd rant over)

 

[projecteddrama]

I've seen people put some decent arguments for First Contact's version of Cochrane as a thing about Gene Roddenberry The Myth vs Gene Roddenberry The Reality.

That's apparently what they were going for, don't quote me on it though. In reality, Gene Roddenberry made up all kinds of shit surrounding his forward thinking progressiveness. I mean it was the networks who wanted a racially diverse cast, for example.

I kinda rationalized it by just saying that not all Vulcans followed Surak's teachings. Sybok (despite V being an awful film) is an example of this. Spock, after all, did say that logic was the beginning of wisdom, and not the end of it.

It would have been cool if it weren't handled so badly. Also Sybok was exiled, isn't that some civil rights violation or something? I remember Sisko saying the Bajorans couldn't enter the Federation if they brought back a discriminatory caste system, but now I'm getting way too nerdy...

Although you may not have much emotional attachment to it, I though the Enterprise-E design-wise was one of the most beautiful ships in the Star Trek canon. It was a great ship for the films and a great replacement for the D, which wasn't really suited for the big screen.

I prefer the beefed up D from "All Good Things" but I love the E, looks way more sleek.

I know I shouldn't feel this way, but I really like Faith of the Heart.

Then you have no soul...

Seriously though, you have a greater tolerance than I do. I'll take V, Nemesis, Insurrection, Voyager, I can't take that!

Ok, I'll admit that after binge watching Enterprise probably no less than 10 times over the past 4-5 years

Some sort of BDSM ritual or do you actually enjoy the series in its totality?

First Contact was the best of the movies for not only being pretty good as a horror movie (the Borg were very good villains), what they did with Zefram Cochrane was perfect because it showed him as a flawed human being who still did something incredible, but still human.

Exactly what I think. I love First Contact, to me its the last TNG episode. Or I guess last good one, since Insurrection is like a bad one...

 

[XYZpdq]

That's apparently what they were going for, don't quote me on it though. In reality, Gene Roddenberry made up all kinds of shit on his forward thinking progressiveness. I mean it was the networks who wanted a racially diverse cast, for example.

It seems like Gene did a really good job of hustling progressiveness and nerd shit for a buck in a pre-tumblr, pre-patreon day.
iirc the whole "grassroots fan campaign" to save TOS was run by a person who ran one of his shady side companies.

 

[projecteddrama]

It seems like Gene did a really good job of hustling progressiveness and nerd shit for a buck in a pre-tumblr, pre-patreon day.
iirc the whole "grassroots fan campaign" to save TOS was run by a person who ran one of his shady side companies.

Didn't know that about the grassroots campaign, have any info on it?

And yeah when it comes to TOS, much of its progressiveness, which is (largely IMO) to its strength was actually the result of the studios. And Roddenberry actually wrote a lot of regressive stories, like The Turnabout Intruder.

Also Roddenberry became pretty insane later in life, part of the reason early TNG sucks. Major egotist who was a bit of a visionary crackpot and also just an asshole overall.

 

[YankeeTrader]

Some sort of BDSM ritual or do you actually enjoy the series in its totality?

Binging in it's entirety has some advantages. Back when it aired, I'd have a whole week to stew between episodes if they sucked. Binging one after the other the way I tend to, I tend to get maybe 1 shit, 1 mediocre and 1 decent in some combination. Even at it's worst moments, I found the characters enjoyable at least. Although Bakulas acting is starting to grate on me a bit more now for some reason.

It seems like Gene did a really good job of hustling progressiveness and nerd shit for a buck in a pre-tumblr, pre-patreon day.
iirc the whole "grassroots fan campaign" to save TOS was run by a person who ran one of his shady side companies.

Bjo?

I kinda rationalized it by just saying that not all Vulcans followed Surak's teachings. Sybok (despite V being an awful film) is an example of this. Spock, after all, did say that logic was the beginning of wisdom, and not the end of it.

(nerd rant over)

Judges have ruled that is an acceptable answer.

 

[projecteddrama]

Binging in it's entirety has some advantages. Back when it aired, I'd have a whole week to stew between episodes if they sucked. Binging one after the other the way I tend to, I tend to get maybe 1 shit, 1 mediocre and 1 decent in some combination. Even at it's worst moments, I found the characters enjoyable at least. Although Bakulas acting is starting to grate on me a bit more now for some reason.

I get ya. Out of curiosity, do you prefer Voyager or Enterprise? If you add the fourth, and hell even third seasons, I think Enterprise is a bit stronger. But it doesn't have an EMH or Seven of Nine equiv, most of its characters are as dull as the rest of the cast on Voyager IMO

Bakula won emmys for acting in Quantum Leap I believe, I wonder why he made such a terrible captain? Was it just bad writing?

 

[YankeeTrader]

I get ya. Out of curiosity, do you prefer Voyager or Enterprise? If you add the fourth, and hell even third seasons, I think Enterprise is a bit stronger.

Bakula won emmys for acting in Quantum Leap I believe, I wonder why he made such a terrible captain? Was it just bad writing?

I'd pick Enterprise in a blind taste test 10 out of 10 times. What I loved about the show, was how they nailed the essence of Trek. It was about the people, our role in the larger scheme of things. Consequences of our actions. Facing the unknown. Being the best of humanity(except for that time(s) during the Xindi arc). To me, good Trek needs a moral lesson hidden in it somewhere. Racism is wrong, war isn't the answer etc.. Sometimes it was a bit ham fisted, but so was TOS.

Bakula got better, but the first season or so he just seems way too wooden. I can see it from someone who is new to episodic television or not used to a big lead, but he's done both, and quite well before. I'll go with the writing theory too. He's a good actor, that's not arguable, so it has to be the writing

The "In a Mirror" Archer is a joy to behold. That's proof right there he can act. No one can overact and chew the scenery like he did and not be a pro.

 

[TheImportantFart]

Out of curiosity, do you prefer Voyager or Enterprise?

Voyager every time. Voyager at least feels like a Star Trek show, just a bad one. Enterprise barely qualifies as television a lot of the time and if it didn't have the Star Trek name attached it would never have made it to air. I can think of episodes of Voyager I would watch again, I can't do that for Enterprise. The third and fourth seasons were too little, too late and they were still incompetently handled in a lot of ways.

Put it this way. Voyager was a bad show. Enterprise was an unwatchable insult to the name of Star Trek.

 

[projecteddrama]

I'd pick Enterprise in a blind taste test 10 out of 10 times. What I loved about the show, was how they nailed the essence of Trek. It was about the people, our role in the larger scheme of things. Consequences of our actions. Facing the unknown. Being the best of humanity(except for that time(s) during the Xindi arc). To me, good Trek needs a moral lesson hidden in it somewhere. Racism is wrong, war isn't the answer etc.. Sometimes it was a bit ham fisted, but so was TOS.

I agree with you here. Voyager is actually IMO the least "Trek" of the shows, in a bad way. (to me DS9 is very Trek, it's just a bit loose with it). Voyager is trying to be Next Generation, not Star Trek, if that makes sense. While TNG is excellent Trek, Voyager is a souless copy of it, it's not even really Trek by the numbers, but just bland copy of TNG by the numbers. I'm probably not making a lot of sense here, but what I'm trying to say is it's not even trying to be generic Trek much of the time, but specifically generic TNG, which it fails at spectacularly and sacrifices what potential it ever had. Enterprise, for all its mortal flaws, to me feels more like Trek.

What's your favorite episode btw, for me its the Terra Prime two parter. It very much actually feels like Im watching the beginning of TOS, TNG, DS9, etc there

The "In a Mirror" Archer is a joy to behold. That's proof right there he can act. No one can overact and chew the scenery like he did and not be a pro.

Got me there...

Voyager every time. Voyager at least feels like a Star Trek show, just a bad one. Enterprise barely qualifies as television a lot of the time and if it didn't have the Star Trek name attached it would never have made it to air. I can think of episodes of Voyager I would watch again, I can't do that for Enterprise. The third and fourth seasons were too little, too late and they were still incompetently handled in a lot of ways.

If you can nail it down, what's the worst thing about Enterprise?

 

[YankeeTrader]

Voyager every time. Voyager at least feels like a Star Trek show, just a bad one. Enterprise barely qualifies as television a lot of the time and if it didn't have the Star Trek name attached it would never have made it to air. I can think of episodes of Voyager I would watch again, I can't do that for Enterprise. The third and fourth seasons were too little, too late and they were still incompetently handled in a lot of ways.

Put it this way. Voyager was a bad show. Enterprise was an unwatchable insult to the name of Star Trek.

I felt the same way when it first aired. I quit somewhere after middle of the first season and didn't pick it up again until right as it got good in season 4.

I'm watching Voyager through again, and as always, the only real standout character on the show is the Doctor. He steals just about every scene he's in.

I agree with you here. Voyager is actually IMO the least "Trek" of the shows, in a bad way. (to me DS9 is very Trek, it's just a bit loose with it). Voyager is trying to be Next Generation, not Star Trek, if that makes sense. While TNG is excellent Trek, Voyager is a souless copy of it, it's not even really Trek by the numbers, but just bland copy of TNG by the numbers. Enterprise, for all its mortal flaws, to me feels more like Trek.

What's your favorite episode btw, for me its the Terra Prime two parter. It very much actually feels like Im watching the beginning of TOS, TNG, DS9, etc there

If you can nail it down, what's the worst thing about Enterprise?

Voyager got the 'humanity has to grow/change/expand it's mind" angle right with the Doctor. They did a pretty ok job with Seven later in that role. Outside of that, it was an unbalanced mess full of animosity

I'll go with Terra Prime too. I like to end the series right there. Did you notice the oscillation overthurster snuck into that two parter?

Enterprise got a lot of things wrong. Relied too much on CG that doesn't scale on larger TV's that great. Writing was too uneven, the Temporal cold war didn't work, at all. I can probably come up with more but I'm still waking up. Basically, the show needed more Manny Cota and earlier too. He did a magnificent job running the least season.

 

[projecteddrama]

I'm watching Voyager through again, and as always, the only real standout character on the show is the Doctor. He steals just about every scene he's in.

Seven of Nine is my favorite, but the Doctor is good too.

Voyager got the 'humanity has to grow/change/expand it's mind" angle right with the Doctor. They did a pretty ok job with Seven later in that role. Outside of that, it was an unbalanced mess full of animosity

For all my harsh criticisms of Voyager, I gotta hand it to them in that they took two characters who were put in there for lame reasons and actually made them the most interesting. The EMH was there to just fill in the "outsider role " (Spock/Data/Odo/___) and be comic relief at the same time, yet, probably because of Robert Picardo's strong acting, ends up being one of it's only good characters. Seven was there to just be blatant sex appeal that was the most ridiculous in the franchise (I guess except T'Pol. I mean even AbramsTrek hasn't been this silly), yet she's by far the best (IMO) character, mainly because Jeri Ryan can also act.

I'll go with Terra Prime too. I like to end the series right there. Did you notice the oscillation overthurster snuck into that two parter?

Lol, just looked it up. That's awesome. Also since there was a fifth season extensively planned, I wonder if it was planned as the season finale? Enterprise's fifth season to me seems like a lost opportunity.

Enterprise got a lot of things wrong. Relied too much on CG that doesn't scale on larger TV's that great. Writing was too uneven, the Temporal cold war didn't work, at all. I can probably come up with more but I'm still waking up. Basically, the show needed more Manny Cota and earlier too. He did a magnificent job running the least season.

Tbf, in the Temporal Cold War's case, it was executive meddling. They demanded a "futuristic" edge and so Brannon Braga in his infinite wisdom decided to take an idea from a TV pitch in the mid 90s that had nothing to do with Star Trek and insert it into Enterprise. Even he has since said it was a terrible idea. That doesn't excuse the shoddy writing, but just some clarity.

Agreed on Manny Coto. I'm glad Braga and Berman are no longer involved in Trek, though remains to be seen if the new team behind Discovery will work.

Also, on a side note, I know this is going to probably be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think "These Are The Voyages" is the worst episode ever. Very, very very bad, yes. But even compared to stuff like "A Night In Sky Bay" or "Dear Doctor" I don't think it's as bad. To me the most infuriating thing about it is it's a blatant attempt to copy "All Good Things" (and robs the actual cast of an actual ending and goodbye) not in plot (though it steals from a seventh season Ron Moore episode, which I imagine isn't a coincidence) but in that it's trying to be a "valentine" (something Braga described both All Good Things and this episode as) coda to the series, but not the worst episode overall.

 

[XYZpdq]

Bjo?

Yeah, she apparently ran Lincoln Enterprises (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Lincoln_Enterprises) Gene's shady merch shack.

 

[YankeeTrader]

Seven of Nine is my favorite, but the Doctor is good too.


For all my harsh criticisms of Voyager, I gotta hand it to them in that they took two characters who were put in there for lame reasons and actually made them the most interesting. The EMH was there to just fill in the "outsider role " (Spock/Data/Odo/___) and be comic relief at the same time, yet, probably because of Robert Picardo's strong acting, ends up being one of it's only good characters. Seven was there to just be blatant sex appeal that was the most ridiculous in the franchise (I guess except T'Pol. I mean even AbramsTrek hasn't been this silly), yet she's by far the best (IMO) character, mainly because Jeri Ryan can also act.



Lol, just looked it up. That's awesome. Also since there was a fifth season extensively planned, I wonder if it was planned as the season finale? Enterprise's fifth season to me seems like a lost opportunity.

I dunno, they tried in Into Darkness with half naked Carol Marcus.

Later when I'm awake, I'll tell a couple of Robert Picardo anecdotes. He's a neat dude.

Regarding the finale, I believe Berman and Braga had a deal that let them do 'these are the voyages', and as a FU, Cota did Terra Prime which works perfectly as a season or a series finale. Tack on the 'space the final frontier' bit at the very end and rack it, it's done.

That's my theory anyway.

Yeah, she apparently ran Lincoln Enterprises (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Lincoln_Enterprises) Gene's shady merch shack.

I spent a shitton through mail order with Lincoln Enterprises. Still have most of it too.