Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Uranus Pink said:
Disagreeing as TOS wasn't woke although not for the lack of trying by borderline communist Leonard Nimoy who been tard wrangled by everybody, especially by the WWII veterans. TNG and onwards the Federation instead of being an idealized version of the United States in TOS is now an utopian version of USSR.
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It absolutely was woke by the standards of the 1960s. Sure a lot of it hasn't aged particularly well, like how a female first officer was supposed to be controversial in the 22nd century and how Kirk treats the US constitution as the gold standard for human liberty. But it was meant to be transgressive for the time it was produced. There were Russian and Japanese officers on the bridge (the equivalent of throwing in a token Muslim or transgender person today) and of course there was the famous interracial kiss between Kirk and Uhura. More importantly the Federation was socialist (albeit not in the style of the USSR) and TOS regularly harped on the destructive nature of capitalism.
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
Eh, TNG Feds were picky as to who could join the Federation. You couldn't have indoctrinated super-soldiers, enslave a space jellyfish, or have a caste system if a planet wanted to become a member. The USSR would have been fine with all of those things. If any society was like the USSR in TNG, it was the Romulans with their secretive society that rats out dissenters.
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Nah the space USSR wouldn't accept those things either, just for different reasons. But they also would have done a lot more to "encourage" a planet to meet their standards. The worst the Federation would do is say no.
 
Rewatching the original series recently really makes me question the "post scarcity utopia" shit, at least for Trek's original vision. I keep catching mentions of and inferences to money existing. One crewman stating that he would bet credits, and Kirk asking Spock rhetorically if he knew how much Starfleet had invested in him and Spock begins to reply with a number before Kirk cuts him off.

And I'm starting to get skeptical of the anti-religion angle the show was allegedly supposed to have given that they ouright have an episode about a parallel Earth where the Roman Empire never fell and there were a bunch of Sun Worshipers, except they were actually Son Worshipers. As in Jesus Christ, whom Kirk mentions by name.

Looks like most of the more truly woke gay space communism shit came from TNG and beyond rather than TOS which essentially seems to be Murica in Space,
 
Roddenberry was always a humanist liberal. He became more convinced of his own vision and less interested in just making a show as the seventies progressed.

As far as “socialist” the federation is-we see Julian’s father apparently work many jobs that he sucks at, it has a penal colony that seems…pretty chill? My read on the Berman era federation is it’s a society where if you want to sit on your ass and do nothing, you won’t be punished for it, but you will receive no praise for it. It does actually glorify achievement and success.

Starfleet Academy is continuously stated to be hard to get into and also to be very demanding.

So it doesn’t reward laziness.

AnotherOne said:
The Federation isn't morally objectivist, though. Just the opposite imo. Individual captains might make a moral judgement but they're usually shown to be acting outside the Federations rules. If the Federation was truly morally objectivist and exceptionalist then the prime directive couldn't exist and there wouldn't be any rapprochement with expansionist races like the Klingons.

There's a reason most of Star Trek took place at the fringes of Federation space. Earth might be a post scarcity utopia, but the planets outside of the federation had no such luck. Conflict is interesting so obviously that fringe was going to be the focus of the show.
Then Star Trek Picard happened and suddenly even Earth was an impoverished shithole with people struggling to get by. Star Trek was always aspirational and 'woke' in its own way, but its a sad indictment of current-year politics that they can't even imagine a time where they succeed. Star Trek could have been the show where sexism and racism and inequality are things of the past and where transwomen really are indistinguishable from natural women. It could have been the lefties pitching their vision of the future just like Roddenberry did. Instead they just had a couple of (female) characters ranting about how poor old Picard needs to check his privilege.
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The modern “woke” left today is paradoxically very un utopian. It doesn’t believe that it’s own vision will ever actually be achieved, nor do I think does it really want a world that is so.
 
Demon of the Winds said:
Roddenberry was always a humanist liberal. He became more convinced of his own vision and less interested in just making a show as the seventies progressed.

As far as “socialist” the federation is-we see Julian’s father apparently work many jobs that he sucks at, it has a penal colony that seems…pretty chill? My read on the Berman era federation is it’s a society where if you want to sit on your ass and do nothing, you won’t be punished for it, but you will receive no praise for it. It does actually glorify achievement and success.

Starfleet Academy is continuously stated to be hard to get into and also to be very demanding.

So it doesn’t reward laziness.


The modern “woke” left today is paradoxically very un utopian. It doesn’t believe that it’s own vision will ever actually be achieved, nor do I think does it really want a world that is so.
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There are also civilian endeavors. That episode where Picard visits his brother they mention a project to I think raise one of the land masses from the sea to get more land.

It's why I don't buy the whole 'it's impossible to write star trek focused on earth it's an utopia'. People who are emotionally mature and all civilized and shit can still have conflict. Hell Picard and his brother even comes to blows.

If the Vulcans philosophy are all about logic and emotional control, Klingons are about military power and honor, and ferengi are about profit, then the human philosophy is all about self improvement and attainment of skills. Even on earth there seems to be an expectation you don't just go full hedonist you do something.
 
The federation isn’t the culture where a bunch of godlike AIs handle everything and you sit around playing games or attending orgies.

The average citizen can achieve things, whether it’s science or architecture or exploration or any other endeavor.
 
Exceptionally Exceptional said:
Rewatching the original series recently really makes me question the "post scarcity utopia" shit, at least for Trek's original vision. I keep catching mentions of and inferences to money existing. One crewman stating that he would bet credits, and Kirk asking Spock rhetorically if he knew how much Starfleet had invested in him and Spock begins to reply with a number before Kirk cuts him off.

And I'm starting to get skeptical of the anti-religion angle the show was allegedly supposed to have given that they ouright have an episode about a parallel Earth where the Roman Empire never fell and there were a bunch of Sun Worshipers, except they were actually Son Worshipers. As in Jesus Christ, whom Kirk mentions by name.

Looks like most of the more truly woke gay space communism shit came from TNG and beyond rather than TOS which essentially seems to be Murica in Space,
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I mean, how does Cyrano Jones or Harry Mudd make a living otherwise?

I know I speculated on Federation economics earlier in this thread, but I have no interest in finding it.
 
AnotherOne said:
It absolutely was woke by the standards of the 1960s. Sure a lot of it hasn't aged particularly well, like how a female first officer was supposed to be controversial in the 22nd century and how Kirk treats the US constitution as the gold standard for human liberty. But it was meant to be transgressive for the time it was produced. There were Russian and Japanese officers on the bridge (the equivalent of throwing in a token Muslim or transgender person today) and of course there was the famous interracial kiss between Kirk and Uhura. More importantly the Federation was socialist (albeit not in the style of the USSR) and TOS regularly harped on the destructive nature of capitalism.
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Idk but I think there's a qualitative difference between 60's style "woke" and its modern variant. Progressivism is dead and so is the concept of "the future". It's all performative psychodrama, LARPed by bored rich kids and social misfits wearing socialism's skinsuit and twerking in front of a mirror to Goodbye Horses while taking selfies on their $1000 iPhones.

Roddenberry and his writers were frequently preachy but were never motivated by malice. Nu Trek is seething with malice, because contempt for The Others is the emotional core of Current Year politics.
 
All this talk of preachy shit in nu trek reminded me of something Ron Moore said about writing politics in star trek.
BasedRonny.png

So much for not using trek as a political platform (:_(
 
JamesFargo said:
The left has pretty much decided to Stop Worrying and Love Neoliberalism.

I'm just sitting here waiting for the system to shit itself to death.

Jones does not strike me as malicious, really. Mudd is basically a throwback. If Trek was based on the old west, then Mudd was its Dr. Loveless.
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I meant their motivation was to make money in some way or in Mudd's case, to get things that money can acquire. Either way, they were about the bottom line before anything else.
 
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
I meant their motivation was to make money in some way or in Mudd's case, to get things that money can acquire. Either way, they were about the bottom line before anything else.
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Seems like Mudd wanted more than the Feds could offer. His own planet, android cocubines, that kind of stuff.

We know Starfleet barters with other species, since not everyone has given up hard currency. If you want to be a space outlaw, you will need latinum; lots of it.
 
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JamesFargo said:
I guess? Seems like Mudd wanted more than the Feds could offer. His own planet, android cocubines, that kind of stuff.

We know Starfleet barters with other species, since not everyone has given up hard currency. If you want to be a space outlaw you will need latinum, lots of it.
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Nog pointed it out and he is correct, they are a vast barter economy that works as "well" as it does because the replicator facilitates bartering. Even then, the replicator doesn't do EVERYTHING since the Bendii's only real natural resource was geo-thermal energy. The fact they enslaved the space jellyfish in the first place was because they couldn't replicate modern building materials, which is semi-supported later on in Voyager when they couldn't just eat whatever they want. Planets joined because they wanted access to this vast market that didn't have tariffs like the other nations'.
 
Great President of McHell said:
Ron Moore said about writing politics in star trek
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Is it true that Ron Moore actually discussed the plot and making the show in general with the audience on live chats (mid nineties)? I have read some fragments here and there but from today's perspective it seems kinda unreal, when even sanitazed AMAs on reddit are kind of a big deal.
 
horni said:
Is it true that Ron Moore actually discussed the plot and making the show in general with the audience on live chats (mid nineties)? I have read some fragments here and there but from today's perspective it seems kinda unreal, when even sanitazed AMAs on reddit are kind of a big deal.
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Yeah and quite extensively at that, I've read through most of them and theres a lot of interesting stuff in there regarding production and their overall intent and direction for the show.
It's also fun to laugh at some of the hilariously stupid questions/opinions thrown his way, this one from 1997 would be right at home on 2021 twitter.
brainworms.png
 
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Great President of McHell said:
Yeah and quite extensively at that, I've read through most of them and theres a lot of interesting stuff in there regarding production and their overall intent and direction for the show.
It's also fun to laugh at some of the hilariously stupid questions/options thrown his way, this one from 1997 would be right at home on 2021 twitter.
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I am (re)watching DS9 now (two episodes every Sunday) and everytime I am blown away by how much work went into preparing the scenography, make-up, acting, characters and so on. Yes, sometimes the end result is laughably bad, but at least they (most likely) tried, despite tight budgets and deadlines (26 episodes per season!). I read production notes at Memory Alpha entry after watching each episode and Ira Steven Behr or Ronald D. Moore even have the courage to say that the end result sometimes was bad, that something didn't work out as intended, that "the show didn't work". Or the actors comment they liked this episode because it helped to push their character in the way they liked or the contrary, they were baffled by the writing and didn't agree with the choices. This is even more apparent to me when compared to nuTrek, with incoherent plot, off-putting characters and general cheapness and unprofessionalism, which they are trying to hide with flashy (and dumb) CGI.

PS The comment from the image about Odo is insanely stupid. The Founders are a completely alien race, where normally the new individuals have all the knowledge given to them right away from the collective. When not separated from The Link, the newborns may be mature individuals seconds after being born.
 
Exceptionally Exceptional said:
Rewatching the original series recently really makes me question the "post scarcity utopia" shit, at least for Trek's original vision.
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Post-scarcity doesn't mean post-money or even post-capitalism. There will still be a means of measuring and exchanging value because it is simply efficient to do so and people will still want things they don't have and be able to provide labor and services in exchange for such a measure of value.

The fact that you won't starve if you do nothing doesn't mean you won't be eating the bugs (bigot) unless you provide some value in return for the filet mignon you'd prefer to have.
 
horni said:
I read production notes at Memory Alpha entry after watching each episode and Ira Steven Behr or Ronald D. Moore even have the courage to say that the end result sometimes was bad, that something didn't work out as intended, that "the show didn't work".
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DS9 had more transparency. That's why Ron and Ira jumped ship.

The atmosphere on TNG was basically a cult. A cult of personality. And when Gene died, it became a necrocracy.
 
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