Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Voyager's biggest sin can be summed up in two words: Wasted potential.
The idea behind the show was great for a nitty gritty show of two crews being forced to work together despite their differences in a hostile sector without support... instead we got rather regular "nebula with weird shit of the day" episodes that didn't really stand out as much as they could.

Neelix' character is the same problem, when you really think about it. Some dude who worked as a junk hauler after his home planet got turned into a wasteland with his family and friends dying terrible deaths... They exclusively used him as a comedy clown, but had they played up the serious moments a bit more to show that he's broken goods on the inside that just makes the best of his life, now that could have been great.
The episode where Neelix meets the guy that invented the weapon that destroyed his home planet. Even the episode where they bring him back from the dead is pretty cool. Neelix coming to terms with his post-death experience and all that stuff. Then the "Flight of the Phoenix" inspired episode with the spacelift, that one was great as well.
That were some great character moments.

Neelix' main role in other episodes was to just sorta be there, I think episodes that showcases that he knows how to pull through under even the worst conditions would have been cool and would have beefed up the importance of his character in a unique way. Episodes could be centred around the idea that Starfleet might be great when there's a spacedock around to get spareparts and support by an entire fleet of other Starfleet ships, but are a bit out of their league when that stuff is far away for too long. I imagine a storyarc where Voyager goes low on supplies, gets slowly whittled down by an enemy that they narrowly escape and Neelix, being the expert in improvisation that he is, has his moments where his input allows the crew to keep going and fight another day.

When you look into survival-guides by the military, there is always one lecture about valuing living. The idea being that mere survival is not enough, that you need to remind yourself *why* you need to stay alive. In many cases, survival depends not only on keeping yourself dry, warm, hydrated and fed, you also need to keep up mental strength and the will to survive.

That's what Neelix should have been for the crew, not just a clown that stirr-fries weird-looking vegetables in the background, but rather the guy that reminds people why they fight, why they strife and why they need to keep swinging, even if it's hard and painful. Dude watched his entire planet being consumed by a weapon of mass destruction with billions of lives being wiped out in an instant, he saw the direct aftermath. He went through hell and came out the other way not a miserable wreck, but rather someone who despite it all tries to find happiness.
He could have been one of Star Trek's greatest characters in that regard...

Instead, we got an underwhelming side character, that has his moments, but could have been better. I still like his character and never truly understood the levels of hatred he got, but like everything Voyager: The core idea was solid, it was just never truly used to its fullest.
Obviously I quite agree.
Part of the issue with Trek is the tech is advancing to the point that you just can’t have a plot anymore. In the Berman era-you have at least three or four new kinds of FTL being developed-transwarp, artificial wormholes, I want to say jaunt drives(that’s in the novels I think?), and something else I can’t remember.*

Heck, Voyager had an episode with actual time cops from the 29th century. And apparently the federation was exploring other galaxies by the 26th century.

Before discovery ruined it all of course.

Anyway-people complain about technobabble but in the trek setting, tech is just that advanced that it can solve the problems in the setting 4 times out of five.

As a writer-you need conflict to actually have stories, and Trek’s utopianism(most problems solved, humans are genuinely more ethical, compassionate and curious than they are now) makes coming up with problems hard.

And most writers just don’t want to work within a framework like that-not even DS9’s Moore.

*Now I remember, slipstream.
This is where Voyager's format (and actually sticking to it) would have helped as you have a ready made excuse for all the magic tech to not work. Heck you could have several episodes just from the concept of needing to repair the magic tech.
 
I personally love the DS9 Ferengi episodes.
I saw an interesting piece by a blogger in the UK.

I can more or less sum up these Ferengi episodes by comparing them with a quaint old British sitcom that was very popular in the 1990s…’Allo ‘Allo. The two have a great deal in common. They are a mixture of farce and slapstick comedy, they employ the services of confident actors with good chemistry to drive the witty scripts, they rely on repeated (and ever more extreme) catchphrases to get the best audience laughs and they spend a lot of time exploring the baser side of humanity. This isn’t the sort of US sitcom where people walk into a room and smile and get a round of applause without doing a thing (ala Friends & Will and Grace), it is paradoxically (for a comedy) much darker and more introverted than that (dealing with issues such as greed, gender disassociation, union strikes and sexism). Frankly I can understand why the majority of the American market didn’t go for these episodes because they aren’t shallow, cute and full of sexy performers flirting madly with each other (odd how episodes such as Take Me Out to the Holosuite & Badda Bing Badda Bang were much better received in the US).
 
Part of the issue with Trek is the tech is advancing to the point that you just can’t have a plot anymore. In the Berman era-you have at least three or four new kinds of FTL being developed-transwarp, artificial wormholes, I want to say jaunt drives(that’s in the novels I think?), and something else I can’t remember.*

Heck, Voyager had an episode with actual time cops from the 29th century. And apparently the federation was exploring other galaxies by the 26th century.

Before discovery ruined it all of course.

Anyway-people complain about technobabble but in the trek setting, tech is just that advanced that it can solve the problems in the setting 4 times out of five.

As a writer-you need conflict to actually have stories, and Trek’s utopianism(most problems solved, humans are genuinely more ethical, compassionate and curious than they are now) makes coming up with problems hard.

And most writers just don’t want to work within a framework like that-not even DS9’s Moore.

*Now I remember, slipstream.
That's what the Prime Directive was for as a writing rule. TOS characters had to think around the rule and play by that society's rule instead of out-teching them. Unfortunately, later shows tend to forget that purpose and we get episodes like Homeward where everything happens as the mental equivalent of brute force. Picard won't do anything? Have Worf's brother do it and make the crew double down and make the aliens run in circles.

Though I'm not entirely convinced that going full Year of Hell on Voyager would have worked after seeing Ron Moore's BSG remake. That show was misery porn from start to finish.
 
Voyager always had an optimistic tone and one of the key themes was it being a family-not to mention exploration still happens on the return journey. I don’t think that would have worked at all.

In the pilot of voyager-Janeway pretty much breaks the fourth wall and explains the premise of the show-“we’re still going to explore, but we’re going to be one crew, but we are going to look for anything, technology, wormholes and so on to hasten the return trip”.

Not to mention-one of the complaints that voyager should have had Starfleet-Maquis infighting is just dumb-most Maquis are federation citizens and many are former starfleet, the conflict that caused tensions is tens of thousands of light years away and it’s one ship, the maquis are also only a fourth of the crew. People expecting some sort of dynamic struggle within a single ship didn’t pay attention to what the show actually set up.
 
Voyager absolutely set up Starfleet-Maquis tension in the beginning and even played around with it in a few episodes. The chief of security was the undercover cop who tried to arrest Chakotay and his crew, and send them all to prison. Janeway giving a speech about family isn't going to heal that.
 
Voyager absolutely set up Starfleet-Maquis tension in the beginning and even played around with it in a few episodes. The chief of security was the undercover cop who tried to arrest Chakotay and his crew, and send them all to prison. Janeway giving a speech about family isn't going to heal that.
That's what the magic reset button is for.
 
Voyager always had an optimistic tone and one of the key themes was it being a family-not to mention exploration still happens on the return journey. I don’t think that would have worked at all.
No one is arguing in favor of Voyager being misery porn start to finish, but there should be more emphasis to indicate that Voyager is indeed stranded at the ass-end of the galaxy that exceeds Janeway sighing and saying "home" with a tear in her eye. Most of the time, you barely realize the people aboard the Voyager are not in the same situation as the crew in TNG's Enterprise. Some "we sure do wanna get home quick!" comments amount to jack fucking shit when everything else works out just like on the TNG Enterprise, and the crew's sporadic homesickness is just a fig leaf to hide the fact that the writers treated the show no different from TNG.

Voyager had a very unique setting and they did almost nothing with it. You might as well pretend that Voyager is on a tour of the periphery and it would take them half a year to reach Earth and it would change barely anything about the show.

Not to mention-one of the complaints that voyager should have had Starfleet-Maquis infighting is just dumb-most Maquis are federation citizens and many are former starfleet, the conflict that caused tensions is tens of thousands of light years away and it’s one ship, the maquis are also only a fourth of the crew. People expecting some sort of dynamic struggle within a single ship didn’t pay attention to what the show actually set up.
The Maquis is a conglomerate of misfits, outcasts and rejects of Starfleet, people who waged guerilla war against Starfleet and committed acts of terrorism. You're bound to end up with conflict, if only cause both crews would carry baggage into this situation. Voyager did a few episodes that featured this conflict, but overall the Maquis got assimilated so quickly, you would never be able to tell that it's a mixed crew of people from Starfleet and Maquis by episode 5, and that's a shame.

Something that clearly went right above your head: emphasizing the Maquis-Starfleet conflict could be a very powerful source for character growth and complex character interaction. You know. The thing that makes a show actually interesting to watch. Both crews could start off more like a partnership of necessity where both sides distrust the other and then grow to become one tight-knit group of friends over time.
 
I never really thought why I hated Friends so much but that's pretty much it.
I think sitcoms have changed since then. Norman Lear, to Larry David, to Chuck Lorre.

Friends at least had funny situations. All Chuck's characters do is rip on each other. Yet his shows keep getting renewed.
 
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Something that clearly went right above your head: emphasizing the Maquis-Starfleet conflict could be a very powerful source for character growth and complex character interaction. You know. The thing that makes a show actually interesting to watch. Both crews could start off more like a partnership of necessity where both sides distrust the other and then grow to become one tight-knit group of friends over time.
Bingo. To use just 1 example, look at episode 2 where they have to pick a chief engineer.

Instead of having Torres get promoted over the white malee because she's a strong, brilliant woman - they should have had Voyager's engine breaking down. Carey argues about what the regulations and procedures say is supposed to be done to fix the engine but they keep running into the problem that they're all alone. It's hard to get regulation parts when you don't have a nearby Starbase. By the end, Torres comes through by cobbling together a MacGyver fix for the engine made out of the equivalent of gum and duct tape and Janeway (as well as Carey) acknowledge that Torres' out of box thinking and experience with ad hoc repairs will make her more suited to lead engineering in the situation they're in.

You don't have to overplay the conflict or anything, just have an episode about Starfleet being shaken out of its regulation paradigm.
 
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groypers stay winning

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snarf!

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I'm ACTING!

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HAHAHHAHAHA

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They've now sunk down to Babylon 5 levels of digital effects prowess.

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STD truly is a mirror to our society. Western society's repugnant and fatal illnesses are the true stars of the series.
 
I think if you want a prime example, go look into the comments on the video I posted.

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Notice how critics of the show are generally erudite and can make actual arguments. Meanwhile fans of the show...

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It just seems so... empty! "Yay! Big shiny things!" Like literally the parody nerd crew of RLM, they have nothing to add to their favorite show except to clap like a bunch of trained seals.

This is what's starting to anger me. Say what you will, but the original core 5 Trek series? At least they kind of invite participating discussion! (as this board has demonstrated several times) I mean sure Neelix may be a shithead - but we can at least have talks about him! But shows nowadays just don't go any deeper than "shiny lights! big explosions! tears!"
 
Toe Fungi
given happenings of the past month or so that might be a pretty high bar to clear
I personally love the DS9 Ferengi episodes.

Brunt, The Nagus, Quark and Rom's Mother and the other slew of Ferengi one timers all never fail to entertain. Sure its not the hard hitting, deep thinking episodes that Trek is known for but they're always entertaining and fun to watch. Doesn't hurt I guess that they're all powered by amazing actors doing a guest spot I guess.

"You embezzled from the Nagus? Father would be so proud!"

So many great one liners.
yeah the ferengi stuff was good
"It always comes down to profit with you people, doesn't it?"
 
Yah, everyone in TV land learned the wrong lesson from GoT

Its not the huge over arching story that got people hooked. It was the brilliant characters and their interplay that kept you tuning in. You really liked some of the character and really hated others and you really wanted to see what they'd do next. Until of course the "writers" ran out of book to copy then...well we all know what happened after that.

Hollywood thinks everyone loved the twisted, convoluted, world changing plot and that the characters are just a means to that end. This is why so much of current year TV is so bad...so very very bad. The character serve the story and not the other way around.

Take ToS as an example.

There are none, as in zero, huge plot threats to the galaxy in it. It mostly deals with the local issues of Enterprise and not galaxy wide, apocalyptic events. (well until the movies but that what movies are for after all). The most loved ToS episode deals with an annoying threat to the food supply of a single unimportant space station. What makes TwT so great is the interplay between the characters. Kirk, Spock and McCoy along with a few good lines from Scotty make for some seriously enjoyable TV and all without massive threats or season long plot hi-jinks. Just a small local story involving characters we as an audience are invested in. That's all it really takes, good well written characters who people can relate too and are interested in seeing more of.

Modern Hollywood has either forgotten this or its new generation of writers are not capable of creating good, related characters and instead rely on "shocking twists" and series long hooks to keep viewers tuning in. Fuck JJ Abrams and his stupid Mystery Box, that jew is the worst thing in Hollywood and he's helped kill off two the best Sci-fi series we have so far with his insipid mystery ideas and terrible cinematography.

Here's a free hint; the best most awesome plot is garbage if we as an audience don't give a shit about the characters involved in it.

This is where STD and STP both fail. We just don't give a shit about any of these characters involved. They're all un-relateable, unlikable ass-holes. So what if the androids rebel? So what if the Borg come back..none of this means anything to me as I hope that all the characters die as painfully as possible as soon as possible.
 
There are none, as in zero, huge plot threats to the galaxy in it. It mostly deals with the local issues of Enterprise and not galaxy wide, apocalyptic events. (well until the movies but that what movies are for after all). The most loved ToS episode deals with an annoying threat to the food supply of a single unimportant space station.
I thought the most loved TOS episode dealt with Starfleet disappearing because an annoying liberal didn't get hit by a car in the 1930s?

But people mostly like it because mechanical rice-picker and the personal cost Kirk pays to restore the timeline.
 
I think if you want a prime example, go look into the comments on the video I posted.

View attachment 2612161

Notice how critics of the show are generally erudite and can make actual arguments. Meanwhile fans of the show...

View attachment 2612167
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View attachment 2612171

It just seems so... empty! "Yay! Big shiny things!" Like literally the parody nerd crew of RLM, they have nothing to add to their favorite show except to clap like a bunch of trained seals.

This is what's starting to anger me. Say what you will, but the original core 5 Trek series? At least they kind of invite participating discussion! (as this board has demonstrated several times) I mean sure Neelix may be a shithead - but we can at least have talks about him! But shows nowadays just don't go any deeper than "shiny lights! big explosions! tears!"
"Let's fly" is an appropriately dumb replacement for "Engage". She might as well being saying "shiggy diggy my niggas" for as how stupid it sounds. Perfection.
 
I thought the most loved TOS episode dealt with Starfleet disappearing because an annoying liberal didn't get hit by a car in the 1930s?

But people mostly like it because mechanical rice-picker and the personal cost Kirk pays to restore the timeline.

Well I did say most loved and not best. There is a difference.

Also: mechanical rice-picker? Me confused.
 
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