Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Michael Wade]

Toe Fungi are more likable then black jesus lady. You have to dip into STicard to get equally unlikable characters. Even Neelix is more likable then any characters from Nu-Trek. That's how bad Nu-Trek writes itself. Neeeeelix is a more likable character. Let that sink in.

Still, I don't enjoy Lower Decks but that's probably because I'm not the audience its aimed for anyway.

I watched a couple episodes of Voyager and I was shocked how good some of Neleix's episodes are. When they play up the fact that this guy had a bad history and the writing was good? It worked

Neleix not giving a shit if he lives or dies, because he indirectly betrayed his friends was dam fine moment.

I unironicaly like character. A little of it is the fact he reminds me of my father. Annoying at times, but genuinely warm and affable.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

I watched a couple episodes of Voyager and I was shocked how good some of Neleix's episodes are. When they play up the fact that this guy had a bad history and the writing was good? It worked

https://youtube.com/watch?v=J3hB8P78QYo:138

Neleix not giving a shit if he lives or dies, because he indirectly betrayed his friends was dam fine moment.

I unironicaly like character. A little of it is the fact he reminds me of my father. Annoying at times, but genuinely warm and affable.

Neelix was a character I hated at first but slowly came to like. Honestly I think once Kes was out of the way Neelix actually started being a much better character.

 

[Andthensomeguy]

Toe Fungi are more likable then black jesus lady. You have to dip into STicard to get equally unlikable characters. Even Neelix is more likable then any characters from Nu-Trek. That's how bad Nu-Trek writes itself. Neeeeelix is a more likable character. Let that sink in.

Still, I don't enjoy Lower Decks but that's probably because I'm not the audience its aimed for anyway.

I've also watched the show, and my two cents on it are...it's not bad. Not great, but not bad.

I will full on admit that the first two episodes are garbage and everything you said applies to those episode, Hell, I almost dropped the show then and their, but I'm a glutton for punishment and a friend of mine assured me it gets better, so I decided to continue on and...yeah, he was kinda right. Upon the climax of episode 3 the show starts to dial back on Mariner being POC Space Jesus and actually bothers to give her a few flaws. There's even a few times in Season 2 where she needs to be rescued by "pasty white boy" Beckett and Jack Ransom "the white dude-bro commander" because they end up in situation where the only way out is with diplomacy, which Mariner turns out to kind of suck at. I will admit I didn't start actually liking Mariner until Season 2 when they actually started exploring her flaws a bit more, but she did generally get more tolerable throughout the first season...albeit with a few relapses here and there.

Now, maybe it was because the show set my expectations extremely low, but seeing a strong, independent black women needing the help of a white man to get out of trouble in the year of our lord that is "Current Year" warmed me up to the show quite a bit. I will also give the show credit for having the Senior Staff characters being fleshed out, having personalities, and actually be deserving of there jobs and not just being the "token assholes in charge who steal all the credit from the lower deck characters, who are the real heroes" that I thought the show would make them be.

Of course, I'm not going to avoid pointing out it's flaws. While I wouldn't say calling Lower Decks "Rick and Morty meets Star Trek" the perfect way to describe the show, it also not an entirely wrong assessment. It also sometimes it channels a bit of "Reddit humor", with the jokes being hit and miss, but even the bad jokes have the decency to be over fairly quickly. The show also has a bit of an identity crisis at to what it wants to be, sometimes it wants to be a Star Trek parody with slight Rick and Morty vibes, sometimes its tone is legitimately straight up genuine Star Trek played completely straight. Much like the humor, sometimes it works and actually flows well enough to make for a good scene, sometimes it causes a bit of a mood-whiplash for me. That said, I feel like the show is trying, it doesn't always work out, but at least the show is putting effort into doing it's own thing to be appealing to new people and not piss off the fans. It's sad that's considered praise now a days...but there ya go.

tl:dr: On average, it's a 5 or 6/10 show for me. I do not blame you if you dropped the show after the first two episodes, because those were no-stop garbage, but the show does start steady improving from there on and puts the reigns on Mariner being black space Jesus. I can understand if it doesn't gell with you due to being a bit different in tone from classic Star Trek, but if you don't mind taking a step back and accepting the show for what it is, it's at least...something mildly entertain to watch while you eat dinner or something.

I might just have shit tastes though, I never rule out that possibility on principal.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Neelix was a character I hated at first but slowly came to like.

Neelix is to VOY what Wesley and Quark are to their respective shows. No one tuned in specifically for him. So if he showed up in the teaser you knew that week's episode was worthless.

There was a lot more filler in those days. Neelix bore the brunt of it.

 

[Sweet and Savoury]

I've also watched the show, and my two cents on it are...it's not bad. Not great, but not bad.

When I said black space jesus I meant Micheal Burnham.

Its very telling about modern culture that when I say "black space jesus woman" we need to clarify exactly which "black space jesus woman" we are referring too...

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

Neelix is similar to Wesley and Quark. No one tuned in specifically for him. So if he showed up in the teaser you knew that week's episode was pointless filler.

And there was a lot more filler in those days. Neelix bore the brunt of it.

At least Quark episodes were usually okay to good for the most part. Neelix is mostly tolerable, and actually good once his child bride fucked off.
Wesley episodes get an instant skip tho. Jesus how the fuck did Gene not know by that point that Mary Sue self inserts of that sort are disliked by almost everyone? For fucks sake, A Trekkie's Tale came out in 1973! He had 2 and a half decades to realize Wesley was a terrible character idea.

 

[Sweet and Savoury]

I personally love the DS9 Ferengi episodes.

Brunt, The Nagus, Quark and Rom's Mother and the other slew of Ferengi one timers all never fail to entertain. Sure its not the hard hitting, deep thinking episodes that Trek is known for but they're always entertaining and fun to watch. Doesn't hurt I guess that they're all powered by amazing actors doing a guest spot I guess.

"You embezzled from the Nagus? Father would be so proud!"

So many great one liners.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

I personally love the DS9 Ferengi episodes.

Brunt, The Nagus, Quark and Rom's Mother and the other slew of Ferengi one timers all never fail to entertain. Sure its not the hard hitting, deep thinking episodes that Trek is known for but they're always entertaining and fun to watch. Doesn't hurt I guess that they're all powered by amazing actors doing a guest spot I guess.

"You embezzled from the Nagus? Father would be so proud!"

So many great one liners.

"Mother! You take off your clothes this instant!"

 

[WhatIsThePunchline]

I unironicaly like character. A little of it is the fact he reminds me of my father. Annoying at times, but genuinely warm and affable.

I also like him. He's just so damned earnest, and it's always nice when he gets a moment to shine because it's that whole underdog thing. Would have loved to see him reach Federation space.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Voyager's biggest sin can be summed up in two words: Wasted potential.
The idea behind the show was great for a nitty gritty show of two crews being forced to work together despite their differences in a hostile sector without support... instead we got rather regular "nebula with weird shit of the day" episodes that didn't really stand out as much as they could.

Neelix' character is the same problem, when you really think about it. Some dude who worked as a junk hauler after his home planet got turned into a wasteland with his family and friends dying terrible deaths... They exclusively used him as a comedy clown, but had they played up the serious moments a bit more to show that he's broken goods on the inside that just makes the best of his life, now that could have been great.
The episode where Neelix meets the guy that invented the weapon that destroyed his home planet. Even the episode where they bring him back from the dead is pretty cool. Neelix coming to terms with his post-death experience and all that stuff. Then the "Flight of the Phoenix" inspired episode with the spacelift, that one was great as well.
That were some great character moments.

Neelix' main role in other episodes was to just sorta be there, I think episodes that showcases that he knows how to pull through under even the worst conditions would have been cool and would have beefed up the importance of his character in a unique way. Episodes could be centred around the idea that Starfleet might be great when there's a spacedock around to get spareparts and support by an entire fleet of other Starfleet ships, but are a bit out of their league when that stuff is far away for too long. I imagine a storyarc where Voyager goes low on supplies, gets slowly whittled down by an enemy that they narrowly escape and Neelix, being the expert in improvisation that he is, has his moments where his input allows the crew to keep going and fight another day.

When you look into survival-guides by the military, there is always one lecture about valuing living. The idea being that mere survival is not enough, that you need to remind yourself *why* you need to stay alive. In many cases, survival depends not only on keeping yourself dry, warm, hydrated and fed, you also need to keep up mental strength and the will to survive.

That's what Neelix should have been for the crew, not just a clown that stirr-fries weird-looking vegetables in the background, but rather the guy that reminds people why they fight, why they strife and why they need to keep swinging, even if it's hard and painful. Dude watched his entire planet being consumed by a weapon of mass destruction with billions of lives being wiped out in an instant, he saw the direct aftermath. He went through hell and came out the other way not a miserable wreck, but rather someone who despite it all tries to find happiness.
He could have been one of Star Trek's greatest characters in that regard...

Instead, we got an underwhelming side character, that has his moments, but could have been better. I still like his character and never truly understood the levels of hatred he got, but like everything Voyager: The core idea was solid, it was just never truly used to its fullest.

 

[UnKillFill]

You know the more I re-watch Enterprise the more I come to like it.

I am honestly surprised at this. Archer is still a Gary Sue but the other characters are quite likeable and a lot of the stories are decent.

I like Soval's arc and Shan's. I wish we would see more of the Tellerites and Orions both as protagonists and villains as both races are pretty well crafted and interesting. Archer is still annoying most of the time with his Sue-ness and the human characters are bland as hell but still I found myself running through the whole series without major gripes. The Vulcans are interesting for once instead of a bland meh and I think everyone likes Shan but that might just because of his actor.

I wish we had seen more of the interactions of the founding of the UFP and less of the time war but yah..its better then I remember.

I don't really consider Archer to be a Gary Stu. For one thing, he is *far* too flawed of a character to be that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- It's a lot easier to look at Archer if you look at him as being *explicitly* mentally retarded, with an inferiority complex and daddy issues to boot. (It's implied that he's at *very* least batshit insane, and the way that the Vulcans treated his father contributed to his [justified?] Vulcan racism as well.) A lot of his dumbest decisions (Including saying "Fuck the Valakians,") make more sense when you realize he was also dealing with severe mental illness at the same time...

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

Anyone ever get the impression that Sarek was less Vulcan than he let on? Dude actually seemed to have a sense of humor once or twice. Most specifically I remember what he said when he was asked why he married his wife. "It seemed the logical thing to do at the time."

And also remembering a scene from one of the books where Kirk, Sarek, and someone else were playing poker in sickbay using McCoy's tongue depressors as chips. Sarek won a hand and says "I believe the appropriate cultural euphemism would be; Come to papa!" as he collected his chips.

He had to know how absolutely humorous both of those statements were and I will never not believe that.

 

[Great President of McHell]

Voyager's biggest sin can be summed up in two words: Wasted potential.
The idea behind the show was great for a nitty gritty show of two crews being forced to work together despite their differences in a hostile sector without support... instead we got rather regular "nebula with weird shit of the day" episodes that didn't really stand out as much as they could.

Neelix' character is the same problem, when you really think about it. Some dude who worked as a junk hauler after his home planet got turned into a wasteland with his family and friends dying terrible deaths... They exclusively used him as a comedy clown, but had they played up the serious moments a bit more to show that he's broken goods on the inside that just makes the best of his life, now that could have been great.
The episode where Neelix meets the guy that invented the weapon that destroyed his home planet. Even the episode where they bring him back from the dead is pretty cool. Neelix coming to terms with his post-death experience and all that stuff. Then the "Flight of the Phoenix" inspired episode with the spacelift, that one was great as well.
That were some great character moments.

Neelix' main role in other episodes was to just sorta be there, I think episodes that showcases that he knows how to pull through under even the worst conditions would have been cool and would have beefed up the importance of his character in a unique way. Episodes could be centred around the idea that Starfleet might be great when there's a spacedock around to get spareparts and support by an entire fleet of other Starfleet ships, but are a bit out of their league when that stuff is far away for too long. I imagine a storyarc where Voyager goes low on supplies, gets slowly whittled down by an enemy that they narrowly escape and Neelix, being the expert in improvisation that he is, has his moments where his input allows the crew to keep going and fight another day.

When you look into survival-guides by the military, there is always one lecture about valuing living. The idea being that mere survival is not enough, that you need to remind yourself *why* you need to stay alive. In many cases, survival depends not only on keeping yourself dry, warm, hydrated and fed, you also need to keep up mental strength and the will to survive.

That's what Neelix should have been for the crew, not just a clown that stirr-fries weird-looking vegetables in the background, but rather the guy that reminds people why they fight, why they strife and why they need to keep swinging, even if it's hard and painful. Dude watched his entire planet being consumed by a weapon of mass destruction with billions of lives being wiped out in an instant, he saw the direct aftermath. He went through hell and came out the other way not a miserable wreck, but rather someone who despite it all tries to find happiness.
He could have been one of Star Trek's greatest characters in that regard...

Instead, we got an underwhelming side character, that has his moments, but could have been better. I still like his character and never truly understood the levels of hatred he got, but like everything Voyager: The core idea was solid, it was just never truly used to its fullest.

Voyager never had the balls to stick with anything interesting, both on the long term and in individual episodes. 90% of Voyager is interesting episode concepts that devolve into mindless action and things blowing up because they think the audience is too stupid to keep paying attention. All of the new alien races they introduce get forgotten in favor of bring back the Borg and even then they manage to ruin what made them unique in the first place. I don't hate Scorpion but having them actually honor their deal with Janeway is the stupidest thing, I won't fault them for the Borg Queen because that one was first contact's fault but overall I like the Borg less after what Voyager did with them. It's not that they ran out of idea they just couldn't be bothered to develop anything new they had.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Voyager never had the balls to stick with anything interesting, both on the long term and in individual episodes. 90% of Voyager is interesting episode concepts that devolve into mindless action and things blowing up because they think the audience is too stupid to keep paying attention. All of the new alien races they introduce get forgotten in favor of bring back the Borg and even then they manage to ruin what made them unique in the first place. I don't hate Scorpion but having them actually honor their deal with Janeway is the stupidest thing, I won't fault them for the Borg Queen because that one was first contact's fault but overall I like the Borg less after what Voyager did with them. It's not that they ran out of idea they just couldn't be bothered to develop anything new they had.

The show that should have boldly gone where no ST show has gone before sadly didn't.

I think the Vidiians, for instance, were pretty cool aliens, some really crazy body horror and very unique in ST. I would not have minded if they had been a bigger threat over a longer time frame.

Voyager went with a very strong episodic format, it should have gone for mini-arcs that span 2-6 episodes, if not outright having an overspanning story arc per season. The episodic format is great for television, but I think the mini-arc format would have made the show feel more coherent and atmospheric. The irony is that Voyager always makes it a point that they are stranded far from home, but it never feels like it and I partially blame that on the episodic format, since it feels too "every other Trek we have seen up to this point."

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

The Vidiians were such a waste. Creepy plague victims who steal other people's skin and organs. Theyre like a fully biological Borg driven from necessity rather than the idea of perfection. They were, if anything, even creepier and more terrifying than the fucking Borg. One of them literally stole a motherfucker's face!

And how did this amazingly creepy race of self made Frankensteinian freaks end it's tale? Cured of the phage offscreen by space George Costanza and his genius buddies and never mentioned again. Fucking waste.

 

[AnOminous]

At least Quark episodes were usually okay to good for the most part. Neelix is mostly tolerable, and actually good once his child bride fucked off.
Wesley episodes get an instant skip tho. Jesus how the fuck did Gene not know by that point that Mary Sue self inserts of that sort are disliked by almost everyone? For fucks sake, A Trekkie's Tale came out in 1973! He had 2 and a half decades to realize Wesley was a terrible character idea.

I think he insisted on keeping Wesley despite the fact everyone hated him out of pure spite. After all, if everyone hated his self-insert, they must have hated him, too.

 

[Great President of McHell]

The Vidiians were such a waste. Creepy plague victims who steal other people's skin and organs. Theyre like a fully biological Borg driven from necessity rather than the idea of perfection. They were, if anything, even creepier and more terrifying than the fucking Borg. One of them literally stole a motherfucker's face!
View attachment 2609947

And how did this amazingly creepy race of self made Frankensteinian freaks end it's tale? Cured of the phage offscreen by space George Costanza and his genius buddies and never mentioned again. Fucking waste.

On of my favorite things they offhandedly mention about the Vidiians is that they were a peaceful and extremely technologically advanced race not unlike humans prior to the phage, I think its interesting to consider how a people like that could end up resorting to violence and organ theft out of desperation and we do see a couple of them that feel a great deal of shame for what they've become. I think one of the first ones we see even mentions that they'd look for a way to atone for what they've done if they end up surviving it so there was plenty of potential there.
Maybe the makeup was just too hard to do frequently.

 

[AnOminous]

Anyone ever get the impression that Sarek was less Vulcan than he let on? Dude actually seemed to have a sense of humor once or twice.

Spock inherited it from somewhere.

 

[Ishtar]

Part of the issue with Trek is the tech is advancing to the point that you just can’t have a plot anymore. In the Berman era-you have at least three or four new kinds of FTL being developed-transwarp, artificial wormholes, I want to say jaunt drives(that’s in the novels I think?), and something else I can’t remember.*

Heck, Voyager had an episode with actual time cops from the 29th century. And apparently the federation was exploring other galaxies by the 26th century.

Before discovery ruined it all of course.

Anyway-people complain about technobabble but in the trek setting, tech is just that advanced that it can solve the problems in the setting 4 times out of five.

As a writer-you need conflict to actually have stories, and Trek’s utopianism(most problems solved, humans are genuinely more ethical, compassionate and curious than they are now) makes coming up with problems hard.

And most writers just don’t want to work within a framework like that-not even DS9’s Moore.

*Now I remember, slipstream.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Maybe the makeup was just too hard to do frequently.

I would assume that it was a bit too grimdark for the intended audiences that also tried to appeal to kids.
They could have worked around this by having vidiians using helmets with visors that are hard to see through and only very sparingly show off the cronenberg-esque horror of their bodies. It would cut back on cost, since you only need a handful of costumes with helmets that can be reused endlessly (and customized a bit here and there) and I think it would make the Vidiians even more gruesome in a way, if we only ever saw glimpses of their horrible bodies and our minds start filling out the blanks.

As a writer-you need conflict to actually have stories, and Trek’s utopianism(most problems solved, humans are genuinely more ethical, compassionate and curious than they are now) makes coming up with problems hard.

I dunno, it can always be about conflict with someone else, but it's hard to find an interesting "someone else".
ENT had a great setting in a pre-Starfleet universe with conflicts here and there. I just think doing a "temporal cold war" was fucking stupid (the name sounds baller, but it just doesn't feel fitting for a prequel to TOS). I don't want to see such technobabble nonsense, I would have loved to see early conflict with other species, such as a Klingon-Starfleet war, getting into contact with other species we know from TOS and so on.

Voyager and Enterprise committed the same sin: instead of taking advantage of their unique setting, they felt way too much like TNG lite.

The Expanse and GoT (before it went down the shitter) have proven that shows featuring politics and intrigue can be interesting. ST would have done well to aim for that, instead we get whatever the fuck STD and STP is. And don't even get me started on "I can't believe it's not Rick and Morty" shit like Lower Decks.